JewishHeart Posted December 5, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/24/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 5, 2004 "...The lighting of the Menorah is not a farce, it has profound spiritual and religious significance. ... the historical elements which led to the Talmudic Rabbis shifting the focus of the Hanukkah story from that of a military victory to that of a miracle of a cruse of oil... After peace had been re-established with the Seleucids after the Maccabean War, the Hasmoneans refused to retire. They kept the elements of their guerilla army intact and CONTINUED the war as a civil war against the Seleucids and Hellenized Jews in Jerusalem...The Maccabees then comissioned an official history of their victory, called I Maccabees. It was unabashedly pro-Maccabean because they paid for it and therefore it is pure propaganda...The Hasidim (Jewish loyalists who had been against he Hellenizing Jews) were scandalized by Maccabees for declaring themselves both worldly and temporal powers! They formed a new political opposition party called the Perushim (Pharisees)--the separatists, and bitterly hated the Maccabees. These Perushim eventually evolved into the Rabbis who wrote the Mishnah and Talmud--and they kept their hate for the Maccabees alive. Afterall, the Maccabees, in their eyes, had committed blasphemy by combining the powers of the kingship with that of the priesthood... Over the next 100 years, the Maccabees used their military might to expand the Jewish kingdom, forcibly converting the Idumeans to Judaism... They epitomized the worst in military dictatorship... The more successful the Maccabees became, the wealthier and more Hellenistic they became!... they ended up becoming the single most successful Hellenizing force in Jewish society!...the Maccabean Kingdom was conquered by the Romans, and by the time the Rabbis, heirs of the Perushim and Hasidim, edited the Talmud, the land of Israel had known tremendous loss of life and destruction due to vainglorious military resistance and rebellion against Roman might. The martial memories of the Maccabees were no longer seen as reminders of a glorious past but dangerous, seditious influences which must be supressed at all costs ... The rabbis feared glorifying a martial past while still occupied and oppressed...The myth of the cruse of oil masked the truth about Hanukkah for centuries. The rabbis may have deliberately lied about the military origins and Hellenistic causes of Hanukkah in order to maintain the holiday but shifted its focus to God and more religious themes out of a greater need for survival!..." http://jewish.com/askarabbi/askarabbi/askr622.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewishHeart Posted December 5, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/24/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 5, 2004 This helps us understand the friction between the Saducees ( probably of the Maccabeans) and the Pharisees in the New Testament. Maybe the whole miracle story of Hannukah was made up to spite the Maccabeans because they did not believe in miracles ( wee see this with the saducees in the NT probably maccabeans). I believe in miracles... but it sounds like the Pharisees were playing the false healing evangelist in this story to proove to the cessationists that they were right. I am not a cessationist and believe in miracles, signs, wonders, the gifts, all of it!! I also believe in truth though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest power2u Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Guys I am sure you are much more knowledgable than I am but I think it`s much to do about know thing, it does`nt impact our faith unless our focuss is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewishHeart Posted December 6, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/24/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 6, 2004 Sean Buddy (power2u), I didn't understand you??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted December 7, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 7, 2004 Power2u... Guys I am sure you are much more knowledgable than I am but I think it`s much to do about know thing, it does`nt impact our faith unless our focuss is wrong It is an interesting discussion that has certain implications...if you are not interested you do not have to partake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted December 8, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted December 8, 2004 Somehow I find this whole story hard to believe. Why do you believe one person who comes up with this instead of alot of others believers who are well grounded in what they believe, did you discuss this with a Jewish person who KNOWS? Who is Rabbi Daniel Kohn? Thanks, Angels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewishHeart Posted December 8, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/24/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 8, 2004 Another website prooving "The Lie of Hannukah" "The Hanukkah Story In the year 167 BCE (that is, Before the Common Era) Antiochus (an-tay-o-kus), a Syrian king, ruled Israel. During his rule, Jews were forced to hellenize: Jewish ritual was banned and Jews were forced to join the dominant culture and adopt its way of life. Why did Antiochus care about limiting Jewish observance? Some suggest as an effort to consolidate his rule over the land and its people. Others think the Jewish elite of the time embraced hellenization and wanted to impose its will on fellow Jews. In each story, the goal was to fully assimilate Jews into the dominant culture of the ruling class. Back to the story A small group of Jews who lived outside of Jerusalem in Modi'in, the Macabees, resolutely opposed these changes. They organized a small, guerilla-style, army under the leadership of Judah Macabee. Miraculously, this small group defeated both of their oppressors, Antiochus' army and the Jewish elite, and established themselves as the new ruling class for nearly 100 years. What about the oil? Several hundred years later, the religious leaders of the time (the rabbis) felt uncomfortable with this piece of history which celebrated aggression and civil clashes. They introduced a new feature to the story, which has now become the dominant symbol of the holiday. Here's how it goes When the Macabees celebrated their victory reclaimed the Temple in Jerusalem, they re-lit the flame of the Temple's Menorah with a small cruse of oil they found. The cruse contained enough for only one day. When they used the oil, it miraculously burned for not one but eight days. The "miracle of the oil" was integrated into the history of Hanukkah, and lighting candles for eight days became its central ritual." Taken from : http://www.chsweb.org/mc/hanukkah02.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 OK, so how does that "prove" the "lie" of Hanukkah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 9, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Another website prooving "The Lie of Hannukah" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey, JW! Just an observation. Critical Analysis 101 - Be wary of the word "proof" ("prove"). Whether ultimately found to be true or not, real "proof" is hard to come by. "Showing evidence" is a more accurate wording. Likewise, when dealing with a topic that stirs emotion, as this one does, it is eaier for people to handle when presented as a "maybe possible that" rather than as an "is." OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted December 9, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2004 Just what I thought . "No prove" Who is Who is Rabbi Daniel Kohn? Is he trustworthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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