Reasons Why God Allows Suffering?

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

Here you go GE for #2:

Isaiah 53:4-5, 1 Peter 2:24, Matthew 8:16-17 for starters. I'll be back.

[GoldenEagle]

#2) WHY did God the Father lay ALL sickness and disease on Jesus' body at the cross, and then say "By His stripes, ye were healed."? What purpose did this serve and why did God lay all sickness and disease on HIS body? (Hint: it wasn't for HIS sake, in the same way that at the cross Jesus didn't become poor for HIS sake, and at the cross Jesus didn't use His faith to take on ALL sin into His body for HIS sake). Now why would God do that? What did God accomplish with that, and WHY?

 

 

Here you go GE for #2:

Isaiah 53:4-5, 1 Peter 2:24, Matthew 8:16-17 for starters. I'll be back.

Okay here's those passages in context brother.
 

Isaiah 53:1-6

Who has believed what he has heard from us?
    And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
² For he grew up before him like a young plant,
    and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
    and no beauty that we should desire him.
³ He was despised and rejectedby men;
    a man of sorrows,and acquainted withgrief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
    he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

⁴ Surely he has borne our griefs
    and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
    smitten by God, and afflicted.
⁵ But he was pierced for our transgressions;
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
    and with his wounds we are healed.
⁶ All we like sheep have gone astray;
    we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.

 

 

1 Peter 2:13-25
Submission to Authority

¹³ Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperoras supreme, ¹⁴ or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. ¹⁵ For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. ¹⁶ Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. ¹⁷ Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

¹⁸ Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. ¹⁹ For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. ²⁰ For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. ²¹ For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. ²² He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. ²³ When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. ²⁴ He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. ²⁵ For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

 

 

Matthew 8:14-22
Jesus Heals Many

¹⁴ And when Jesus entered Peter's house, he saw his mother-in-law lying sick with a fever. ¹⁵ He touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and began to serve him. ¹⁶ That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. ¹⁷ This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.”

The Cost of Following Jesus

¹⁸ Now when Jesus saw a crowd around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side. ¹⁹ And a scribe came up and said to him, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” ²⁰ And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” ²¹ Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” ²² And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

[Guest shiloh357]

1) *since God is not CAUSING it: How can God "allow" suffering (as in, saying "Yes, Satan, go do whatever you want to My children" that I just gave My Son for)? For in the Psalms David said that anyone not speaking up against someone sinning is guilty of the same sin in the eyes of God (and this is the root of why we have laws here like the getaway driver being charged with murder if the bank robber murdered someone even though he didn't do it himself); so with this, you would be accusing God by His own laws that HE is causing the suffering by "allowing" Satan to do it to you.

 

 

Well, your premise is that all suffering is the work of the devil, simply isn't true.  People suffer because of bad decisions.  Poverty often comes to people who make bad financial decisions, have no self-control with their credit cards or are, in other ways, irresponsible in how they spend the money they make.  You can't blame that on the devil.  Sickness comes to people who abuse their bodies, especially when they are young.  Many older people face illnesses that are due to indiscretionary activities from earlier days, like smoking, taking illegal drugs, sexual promiscuity.   Those bad choices can't be blamed on the devil.

 

Poverty, sickness and other kinds of suffering usually come to us because we live in a broken world, a world marred by sin.  Sickness and disease are the way sin works it's self out in this world.  Our bodies are frail and susceptible to illness.   It doesn't help that we don't eat right and don't get enough excersize.   Can't just blame the devil wholesale on those things.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that Satan is supernatural, but he is not divine.   Satan doesn't have the privilege of omnipresence.  He can't be Washington DC, Moscow, and Tokyo at the same time, making people sick or whatever.  In fact, the Bible doesn't blame satan for the troubles that plague our world.  The Bible doesn't blame the devil for sickness and disease.   The Bible says that sin and death came through ADAM. These things as a result of man's disobedience to God.   And we have been paying the price ever since.  Sickness and disease is the result of man's disobedience, not result of Satan's work. Sickness and disease, pain in childbirth, thorns and thistles, etc.  came as a result of the fall.   We are redeemed from the curse of the law, but we are not redeemed from the curse of the fall hence we can still get sick.  

 

Our redemption from the curse of the law dealt with our relationship with, and spiritual standing before God.  It does not address the consequences of the fall of man that exist in the natural world.

 

#2) WHY did God the Father lay ALL sickness and disease on Jesus' body at the cross, and then say "By His stripes, ye were healed."? What purpose did this serve and why did God lay all sickness and disease on HIS body? (Hint: it wasn't for HIS sake, in the same way that at the cross Jesus didn't become poor for HIS sake, and at the cross Jesus didn't use His faith to take on ALL sin into His body for HIS sake). Now why would God do that? What did God accomplish with that, and WHY?

 

God didn't lay all sickness and disease on Jesus' body at the cross.  It says that He laid upon him the iniquity of us all (Is. 5:6)  The word "iniquity" doesn't include any notion of sickness or disease.  

 

When it says that Jesus bore our griefs and carried our sorrows," (Is. 53:4), it is applied by Matthew 8:17 to His healing ministry, not to His suffering on the cross.  When it says that He was pierced for our transgressions and bruised (crushed) for our iniquities," (53:5), the context is spiritual and refers to the sin(s) of the people. Jesus bore our sin on the cross.  He was a sin offering (Hebrews 10).    When it says that, "by His stripes we are healed," ( 53:5), the context is still spiritual.  The word for healing in THIS context, (rophe) is a word that means "restored."   The entire context is spiritual in nature and to apply "healing" in to physical illness in a context that is dealing with our redemption from  sin is simply bad hermeneutics.

 

 

#3) If sickness and disease are BLESSINGS as you contend, and we had ALL blessings in Eden and Jesus ONLY blessed, and we will have ALL blessings in Heaven, then WHY won't sickness or disease exist in Heaven? I mean, if they're so wonderful - why do they get thrown into the Lake of Fire with the Devil, rather than be our teacher or a blessing to us? There is no answer to this question other than, because sickness and disease are part of the CURSE, NOT the Blessing of the Lord. Every place blessing is defined, there is no mention or example of it being sickness or disease, rather, it is fruitfulness, increase, multiplication, authority and power.

 

 

Sickness and disease not "blessings," and I don't see that anyone has claimed they are.  But we can still live blessed and have no loss of joy or peace in the midst of suffering, no matter what it is.  I have met Christians who suffer from cancer and continue to be blessed in the midst of it. I know Christians who are going through all kinds of adversity, but they show up to church and you would not know by how they act that anything was wrong.   They continue to serve to the extent they can.

 

 

 

The best witness for the Lord is not getting healed or having  $1 million in the bank.  The best witness for the Lord is when His servants can live out His joy and peace and continue to be solid in their faith in the midst of the same trials that others suffer.    Anyone can live for God when everything is good.   How many can say this;

 

Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls: Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.   Hab 3:17-18

[GoldenEagle]

#2) WHY did God the Father lay ALL sickness and disease on Jesus' body at the cross, and then say "By His stripes, ye were healed."? What purpose did this serve and why did God lay all sickness and disease on HIS body? (Hint: it wasn't for HIS sake, in the same way that at the cross Jesus didn't become poor for HIS sake, and at the cross Jesus didn't use His faith to take on ALL sin into His body for HIS sake). Now why would God do that? What did God accomplish with that, and WHY?

 

God didn't lay all sickness and disease on Jesus' body at the cross.  It says that He laid upon him the iniquity of us all (Is. 5:6)  The word "iniquity" doesn't include any notion of sickness or disease.  

 

When it says that Jesus bore our griefs and carried our sorrows," (Is. 53:4), it is applied by Matthew 8:17 to His healing ministry, not to His suffering on the cross.  When it says that He was pierced for our transgressions and bruised (crushed) for our iniquities," (53:5), the context is spiritual and refers to the sin(s) of the people. Jesus bore our sin on the cross.  He was a sin offering (Hebrews 10).    When it says that, "by His stripes we are healed," ( 53:5), the context is still spiritual.  The word for healing in THIS context, (rophe) is a word that means "restored."   The entire context is spiritual in nature and to apply "healing" in to physical illness in a context that is dealing with our redemption from  sin is simply bad hermeneutics.

I agree Shiloh. Jesus healing ministry was to be a witness to His divinity. The four Synoptic Gospels point to 37 miracles performed by Jesus (there were others but these are the ones recorded). These miracles were acts of love and displays of love and power that drew people to Jesus, revealed His divine Nature, opened hearts to the Gospel message of salvation, and cause many people to glorify God.

Interesting on the context for the word healing (rophe) meaning "restored" in Is. 53:5... I would agree that applying "healing" physically to this passage is probably not the best hermeneutics.

God bless,

GE

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

GE I don't know where you posted an answer to my question...?

 

Shiloh, what I meant was that when people are saying that God is causing their suffering in some form, or allowing it, it is not true - it is the Devil (this is meant in relation to sickness and disease and related issues). As for good people making dumb decisions, yes absolutely, there is plenty of that. God cannot be blamed for drug use or sexual issues or getting into debt or things like that, because people choose them, but it would be hard to say there is not a spirit associated with those activities, planting suggestions, attempting to seduce, etc. I would disagree that they cannot in part be blamed on the Devil to some degree for whatever steals, kills or destroys Jesus said is the fingerprint of the Devil; so whether he (through his army of trillions of demons) directly leads people to it or indirectly, there is still blame. (Surely you will ask how I know there are trillions of demons split across principalities, power, authorities and thrones: in Revelation there is an image of how many angels surround God's throne, if you multiply it out you're looking into the trillions of angels, and this represents the 2/3 leftover from when Satan seduced 1/3 of all angels to follow him).

Death and sin entered mankind through Adam, yes, but he is not credited with sickness and disease. And 1 John 3:8 doesn't say that Jesus came for what Adam did, but rather says His appearance was "to destroy the works of the Devil."

 

Again, with respect to Deuteronomy 28:15-68, that IS the curse of the Law; God says if you (not a nation), does not obey ALL My commandments and statutes, these curses will come on you and overtake you. So what were all these commandments and statutes if you say they weren't the Law? Obviously they have to be the Law and Deut 28:15-68 IS a listing of how the INDIVIDUALS (not the nation) can expect things in their lives to be cursed.

 

 

 

 

Going with this, if blessing were truly what you say (redemption from spiritual death and separation from God (or even as Kwik has posited, that it means "happiness"), then HOW can God BLESS fish and birds and animals as He did in Genesis? Fish, birds and animals CANNOT SIN and are neither spiritually alive nor dead, so HOW can God have blessed them with redemption from spiritual death and separation from God or give them happiness? (They also were blessed, like Adam and Eve, BEFORE sin ever existed). The answer is obvious: blessing means what it means in the Hebrew: empowered to prosper. (yes I am going to provide the references for you sometime this week).

 

On top of this, God says in Hebrews 6 that through rain and the bearing of useful herbs the Earth itself is BLESSED - again, the Earth cannot sin, or be happy, so how can God say the Earth itself is blessed with your definition of blessing? It cannot fit; the only thing that fits with the usage of the word BLESSING is what you see in Genesis 1:28, and then you see how it affects you personally and touches and marks your life in Deuteronomy 28:1-14, and Jeremiah 17:7-8 and many other places in Psalms and Proverbs as well as throughout the NC.

 

THIS must be answered.

 

So God defines the Blessing as being fruitful (always producing), multiplying (always increasing), replenishing the Earth (making/procuring more of whatever you use up), subduing it (controlling your environment so it doesn't control you) and having dominion (over the wind, waves, weather, sun, animals, you name it, etc).

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

#2) WHY did God the Father lay ALL sickness and disease on Jesus' body at the cross, and then say "By His stripes, ye were healed."? What purpose did this serve and why did God lay all sickness and disease on HIS body? (Hint: it wasn't for HIS sake, in the same way that at the cross Jesus didn't become poor for HIS sake, and at the cross Jesus didn't use His faith to take on ALL sin into His body for HIS sake). Now why would God do that? What did God accomplish with that, and WHY?

 

 

 

How can anyone even try to say that Isaiah 53 and Matthew 8 are not references to physical healing? That is atrocious.

 

Matthew 8:16-17 says that after Jesus HEALED PHYSICALLY all the people that came/were brought to Him that THUS HE FULFILLED Isaiah 53:4-5, He bore away our diseases and carried our sicknesses? That is absolute rubbish to try to make that say it was only spiritual - those people were healed PHYSICALLY, and it says that BECAUSE THEY WERE HEALED PHYSICALLY it was the fulfillment of what God promised in Isaiah 53:4-5. You need a good theologian to help you misunderstand the Bible, because there is no way to misunderstand these 2 Scriptures.

 

 

And you asked me to testify of healings I have performed through the laying on of hands as Jesus said ALL Believers would do in Mark 16:17-18 and Paul/Apollos/whomever backs up in Hebrews 6:1-2:

 

I have laid hands on a man stricken with rampant colon cancer and commanded the cancer to go and healing to come in Jesus' name. He felt healing power go into his lower regions and said he knew he was healed on the spot. 3 weeks later, he had his appointment with the doctors - they couldn't find 1 trace of it anywhere! Hallelujah, and God was glorified in his healing!

 

Another time I prayed for an opportunity to lay hands on the 17-year old son of one of my clients before he would have an operation to repair his torn ACL from football. As God would have it, I got that opportunity the night before. I laid hands on him and prayed and he said he felt heat and power enter his knee and leg and then he got up and started squatting, walking, running and then jumping! All of which are impossible for anyone with a torn ACL! Jesus healed him too! Glory to God!

 

Another time I saw a man who was a friend of one of my clients, and I noticed he was not doing well. I found out he had severe Crohn's Disease and pooped into a bag attached to his stomach and could not stand up straight due to pain and his spine being stuck. I preached to him about God's will and he believed it, and I offered to pray and lay hands on him. He wanted that. When we were finished, tears streamed down his face as he stood up straight for the first time that he ever remembered in his life and that painful bloating sensation he'd always had was gone. I told him he was healed and he knew it and received it! I saw him many months later - the doctors could not understand how it was possible and did 4 biopsies, all of which came back negative. They gave him a clean bill of health and I saw him start working out and getting buff and enjoying life since then! Praise God!

 

Another time, I laid hands on myself and prayed and was healed of conjunctivitis (this was at a time when I was poor and had no money for medicine and if you don't get healed, you go blind according to the eye doctor), praise God!

I've laid hands on knees, wrists, spines; seen them all healed in Jesus' name. I laid hands on a nice old lady who had rheumatoid arthritis and could barely move, she was healed and got up out of her chair and said the pain was GONE! Hallelujah!

 

I've laid hands on my cousin who fell off a 50-foot cliff on the highway and his head looked like a large balloon (his ears had disappeared) and the doctors who had said he had a 100% chance of death in a matter of minutes, suddenly came out after my wife and I laid hands on him (everyone else had given up hope and were preparing funeral plans) and said the bleeding had spontaneously stopped in his brain. Then they said even IF he survives, he'll always be about brain dead and totally retarded, never would walk, or speak again. The NEXT DAY, he was UP WALKING AROUND TALKING! He is alive and well today with no problems whatsoever, and that was about 4-5 years ago. Praise GOD!

 

There are a lot more on this list, but I don't want to make an infinite post. I want people to read it and enjoy it!

 

So I will cap it with this: if healing is spiritual as you contend, then HOW did all these people get healed BODIES? How does it happen with all these healing ministries? How did the disciples and apostles do it? Healing is REAL, and it is TODAY, and it is for YOU, for ALL BELIEVERS. Don't believe the lies, receive the TRUTH of God's Word! He wants His people whole and well and healed!

[RustyAngeL]

 

SUFFERING IS NEVER A BLESSING;

This is a very long post with a lot to consider.

So I hope to take it in bite sizes.

 

I would very much disagree that suffering is never a blessing. We're told to rejoice in our suffering. We're that suffering produces endurance. Endurance leads to character and character leads to hope. How can we have endurance in persevering in faith in God, character that is molded to conform to the mind of Christ, and hope in God without suffering?

 

Rom. 5:1-5

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. ² Through him we have also obtained access by faithinto this grace in which we stand, and werejoicein hope of the glory of God. ³ Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, ⁴ and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, ⁵ and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

 

And yet we know suffering ends in good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. Would you agree?

 

Rom. 8:28

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

 

 

 

And still those who will follow Christ and seek to live a godly life will be persecuted.

 

2 Tim. 3:12-13

¹² Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, ¹³ while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

 

 

How about a real life example? On a more personal note a friend (we'll call her Jan) shared in our small group this past week that her mother had cancer. This was a very hard time in their family's life as Jan's mother moved in with them. Yet out of that there was reconciliation between Jan and her mother.  Her mother and one of her uncles hadn't been on speaking terms for about 10 years. Through this ordeal God brought restoration with her uncle. Finally, her mother was also able to share the Gospel with extended family members.

Both Jan and her mother have shared that they absolutely would go through this ordeal with cancer again if they had a choice. The suffering lead to many blessings. So do you see how God can and does use as a blessing my brother?

 

 

Your thoughts?

God bless,

GE

 

 

I look at people like Job and Paul.  When Job was really in the midst of all of his suffering he said thing like, " I know my Redeemer lives, and though He slay me yet will I praise Him."  Paul rejoiced in his suffering.  He prayed constantly for other believers and rejoiced in his pain.  I have to be honest here I find it difficult to be as these two men were.  But I keep reminding myself that someday this will all be over and we will never see suffering and pain again.  That my friend is worth it all. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, what I meant was that when people are saying that God is causing their suffering in some form, or allowing it, it is not true - it is the Devil (this is meant in relation to sickness and disease and related issues).

 

Then how do explain the fact that God sent plagues on Egypt?   How do you explain these verses in Deut. 28 that clearly state that God will send disease and pestilence on the people if they disobey:

The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. Deut 28:20-22

 

The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: Deut 28:27-28

 

So if sickness and disease are 100% the work of the devil, how is it God is personally claiming responsibility for sickness and disease coming upon Israel? And how do you explain the fact that in Numb. 21:6 it says that God sent the fiery serpents that bit the people and caused them to die?

 

I find it interesting that Deut. 28: 15-68 tells us that God warned that He would send sickness and some pretty severe diseases on those who didn’t obey His laws, upon the nation of Israel.

 

 

 

As for good people making dumb decisions, yes absolutely, there is plenty of that. God cannot be blamed for drug use or sexual issues or getting into debt or things like that, because people choose them, but it would be hard to say there is not a spirit associated with those activities, planting suggestions, attempting to seduce, etc. I would disagree that they cannot in part be blamed on the Devil to some degree for whatever steals, kills or destroys Jesus said is the fingerprint of the Devil; so whether he (through his army of trillions of demons) directly leads people to it or indirectly, there is still blame. (Surely you will ask how I know there are trillions of demons split across principalities, power, authorities and thrones: in Revelation there is an image of how many angels surround God's throne, if you multiply it out you're looking into the trillions of angels, and this represents the 2/3 leftover from when Satan seduced 1/3 of all angels to follow him).

 

Honestly, what is wrong with simply taking personal responsibility for one’s own decisions?   I don’t think we can blame God or the devil or demons.  In fact that Bible doesn’t do that.  The Bible doesn’t claim that every instance of sickness or poverty is the work of the devil or the work of God.  The Bible places a very high premium on wisdom and personal responsibility and condemns fools those who act without wisdom.   The Bible, more than not, blames our foolishness on us, not on demons. 

 

 

 

Death and sin entered mankind through Adam, yes, but he is not credited with sickness and disease. And 1 John 3:8 doesn't say that Jesus came for what Adam did, but rather says His appearance was "to destroy the works of the Devil."

Here is a little bit more of contextual look at I John 3:8:

 

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.  1Jn 3:7-8

 

 

The “works” of the devil refers to sin. Jesus came to destroy sin.   Jesus' first coming had nothing to do with destroying sickness or poverty.   Sickness and poverty are not the works of the devil that Jesus came to destroy.  

 

 

Again, with respect to Deuteronomy 28:15-68, that IS the curse of the Law; God says if you (not a nation), does not obey ALL My commandments and statutes, these curses will come on you and overtake you. So what were all these commandments and statutes if you say they weren't the Law? Obviously they have to be the Law and Deut 28:15-68 IS a listing of how the INDIVIDUALS (not the nation) can expect things in their lives to be cursed.

 

When Moses spoke these words they were to a nation, not to a person.   God told the children of Israel as a nation what would happen to them if they did or did not obey all of the law of Moses that had been given to them in the preceding chapters. 

 

But this is not the curse of the law.   Paul juxtaposes the curse of the law with the blesing of Abraham in Genesis 22:18. Paul even quotes that verse in connection with the curse of the law.   The curse of the law has to do with our standing before God.  Those who stand before God without Jesus, stand before God under the law and in fact under the effects of the curse of the law and under the dominion of sin.   Those who stand before God in Christ are under grace and are redeemed from the curse of the law.

I realize that K. Copleand and K. Hagin define the curse of the law as Deut 28.   But they and other Word of Faith teachers are wrong on that.  The Bible itself makes NO theological connection between Deut. 28 and curse of the law.

 

You need to learn how to distinguish between the curse of the law as a theological concept denoting the conequences of being separated from God and the curses that are IN the law as they touch on the consequences of Israel not obeying God.    The commandments given to Israel were instructions on how Israel was to live in the promised land.  If they obeyed, God promised Israel blessing. If they disobeyed and defiled the land through idolatry and other national sins, God promised them curses.   These blessings and curses were for Israel and ONLY Israel and pertained their ability or lack thereof, to enjoy the benefits of the Promised Land God had granted them. 

 

 

 

Going with this, if blessing were truly what you say (redemption from spiritual death and separation from God (or even as Kwik has posited, that it means "happiness"), then HOW can God BLESS fish and birds and animals as He did in Genesis? Fish, birds and animals CANNOT SIN and are neither spiritually alive nor dead, so HOW can God have blessed them with redemption from spiritual death and separation from God or give them happiness? (They also were blessed, like Adam and Eve, BEFORE sin ever existed). The answer is obvious: blessing means what it means in the Hebrew: empowered to prosper. (yes I am going to provide the references for you sometime this week).

 

 

I am not sure which comment of mine you are addressing but the blessing of Abraham that Paul mentions has nothing to do with healing or prosperity. It is connected to the promise of the Spirit (Gal. 3:14).  The book of Galatians was written to congregation that thought they had to become literal Jewish converts to the Jewish religion in order to be saved.   Paul’s point to them what they aere arleady sons of Abraham by faith.   They had no need to convert and be circumcised to make that happen.  

You are completely missing the point of what “blessing” meant in the context of Paul’s letter to the Galatians.  “Blessing” in Hebrew, doesn’t mean empowered to prosper.  It might be applied that way in certain contexts, but it doesn’t mean that.   I speak and read Hebrew so you might want to be careful what you present in that regard.  The word “bless” means, “to kneel.”

 

 

 

On top of this, God says in Hebrews 6 that through rain and the bearing of useful herbs the Earth itself is BLESSED - again, the Earth cannot sin, or be happy, so how can God say the Earth itself is blessed with your definition of blessing? It cannot fit; the only thing that fits with the usage of the word BLESSING is what you see in Genesis 1:28, and then you see how it affects you personally and touches and marks your life in Deuteronomy 28:1-14, and Jeremiah 17:7-8 and many other places in Psalms and Proverbs as well as throughout the NC.

Part of the problem here is that you don’t seem to grasp the difference between how a word is used vs. what a word means.   I did not limit the meaning or usage to the word “Bless” as applying to only spiritual matters.   That is a value that you assigned to me.   I used the word contextually that in the “blessing” promised to Abraham was spiritual in nature.  I didn’t  offer a definition of the word. I was operating in the context of how the word was being used by Paul in Galatians.   You are taking a “one-size-fits-all” approach and plugging a single definition into every single usage of the word bless.  Everytime you see the word bless, you define it as “empowered to prosper” but the Scriptures use the word a variety of ways that are not connected with prosperity or any material benefit whatsoever.

 

 

 

THIS must be answered.

 

 

So God defines the Blessing as being fruitful (always producing), multiplying (always increasing), replenishing the Earth (making/procuring more of whatever you use up), subduing it (controlling your environment so it doesn't control you) and having dominion (over the wind, waves, weather, sun, animals, you name it, etc).

 

No, He doesn’t necessarily define blessing that way.  That is false teaching that you are trying to pencil into the Bible.   The Bible uses the word blessing a number of different ways. You simply cannot lock the definition into referring only to material blessings here on earth.   

 

[Guest shiloh357]

How can anyone even try to say that Isaiah 53 and Matthew 8 are not references to physical healing? That is atrocious.

 

I never made the case that Matthew 8:17 is not a reference to physical healing.  I said that it proves that Is. 53:4 was fulfilled during Jesus’ healing ministry, not on the cross.  

 

Isaiah 53:5 isn’t referring to physical healing, though.  It is referring to spiritual restoration.   His point is that we are being restored back into right relationship with God and He reiterates this in verse six.   Everything connected Jesus’ atonement in Isaiah 53 pertain to restoring us back to God.  Physical healing isn’t what the author has in view. 

 

 

 

So I will cap it with this: if healing is spiritual as you contend, then HOW did all these people get healed BODIES?

 

You need to actually read what people post instead of reacting to what you think they are saying.  It would save us all a whole lot of work if you would correctly frame our posts and stop assigning values to us that we did not espouse or even imply.

[GoldenEagle]

GE I don't know where you posted an answer to my question...?

I agreed with Shiloh and added my 2 cents... in the thread.

Curious though as to your thoughts on

Or perhaps

Or even

God bless,

GE