The cause of homosexual behaviour

[Guest freebird]

Hi there,

I was having a conversation with SuperJew and a couple of others on "The Bible and homosexual behavior" thread (btw, we spell behaviour differently back here in Blighty!)

Unfortunately, that conversation got rather swamped with civil rights, moral and biblical issues. Well, I suppose that's what the topic was about in the first place, so hey, I can't complain.

Anyway, I'd like to take that conversation up here in this thread to complete it. I had just posted to SuperJew thus:

Joel,

I wish those who believe homosexuality is a natural act would stop attempting to use genes as a definite fact when nothing has been found.

Firstly, the scientific debate over homosexuality is not centred around whether homosexuality is natural or unnatural. Indeed, some might argue that it is a "non-question", since homosexuality occurs in nature, and since humans are part of nature. The real questions are "what causes homosexuality?", "is there any genetic pre-disposition to homosexuality?", "is homosexuality inherited?" etc.

The twin studies that you sited do show that a twin whose sibling is homosexual is more likely to be homosexual by some considerable margin - although is far from certain to be a homosexual. This suggests that genes are not the sole causal factor in homosexuality - since if they were, genetically identical people would certainly be homosexual.

That does not mean that genes arn't important. I'll go through the evidence in answer to your next question:

please explain what research there is that shows homosexuality is a natural occurance within the human mind.

Again this question isn't worded in a way that makes it easy to answer. The fact is, no research is ever conducted to show such a conclusion. The word "natural" is so devisive and arguble in definition that a scientific report would rarely state this sort of a finding.

What I can tell you is the research that shows that genetic and embryological factors do affect a person's pre-disposition toward homosexual behaviour (again, homosexuality is a contentious word in science which is why I favour "homosexual behaviour" - people are rarely exclusively homosexual, and there are various degrees of bi-sexuality, from interest and fantasy all the way to exclusive homosexuality).

The first piece of evidence (and I'm happy to reference papers if you wish, and even send some to you in pdf format) is that people who are self-defined homosexuals and bi-sexuals have different 2a/4a finger length ratios than do hetrosexuals. This finger length ratio is strongly causally linked with the levels of foetal androgen exposure - that is, how much a foetus is exposed to certain hormones (androgens) during its time in the womb. A difference in finger length ratios in self-defined homosexual and bisexuals would indicate a difference in foetal androgen concentrations.

This effect was only statistically significant for women btw, although it could help to explain the results of twin studies (more on this later).

The second piece of evidence is genealogical. People who display homosexual behaviour are far more likely to have relatives on their mother's side displaying similar behaviour than relatives on their father's side. This could indicate one of two things, either than there is genetic material on the X chromosome that predisposes men to homosexuality, or that embryological factors affect homosexuality (after all, gestation occurs within the mother, it is her family's genes that will affect embryology most). It was also found btw, interestingly, that the number of children mattered - a second child is considerably more likely to display homosexual behaviour than a first. Embryology and the womb does vary from child to child.

The third piece of evidence is from the twin studies you quoted. Whilst identical twins did not always share homosexual tendancies, they did far more than non-identical twins. Since both identical and non-identical twins share upbringing, scientists concluded that this was evidence that there may be some sort of genetic predisposition to homosexuality, although it wasn't purely determinate, it wasn't the only determining factor.

Lastly, recently scientists have found genetic material on the X-chromosome than homosexuals tend to share. Again, the link is statistical not total, and the findings are currently disputed - they are yet to be repeated that is. But it is still significant nonetheless.

Notice I am yet to use the word "natural".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well prove to me that heterosexualality is passed on through a gene

[Remnant]

its the same cause for all sins......here let the master explain...

Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

And some times things are taught that which is wrong...

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

every human being has the propensities to sin....and Satan and his angels make sure we are tempted to do so...whether we give into the sin or not; we are constantly fighting the sin nature. Itsa day to day battle with self over self. That sin might not have dominion. There is no excuse for sin..any sin. Neither is there any reason for homosexuality.

homosexuality is in the same category in the bible as adultery. It is sin. And those who continue to promote and accept this behavior with ultimately pay with their eternal life!! And that goes for all who contine to sin after God brings you knowledge of your own sins!!

[Bread_of_Life]

Not so fast there Whysoblind - there is plenty of evidence that X-X men can exist, as can X-Y women.

Sexual differentiation occurs at the end of the first trimester of gestation, through the release (or non-release) of testosterone from the testes. In men, this ought to be mediated by the Y chromosome. However, embryologically, this can misfire in X-Xs, or not fire at all in X-Ys - causing genetically male women, and genetically female men.

So in actual fact, the cause of sex differentiation is embryological - it is chemical - but mediated and caused by genes usually.

You should also be careful about equating sex differentiation with hetrosexuality. The fact that homosexuality exists means that sex differentiation doesn't always hetrogenise sexuality. Once again, the evidence is that sexual inclination can be affected by the complex balance of hormones in utero. It isn't necessarily purely genetic.

[artsylady]

SA:

I didn't find your studies on this to be convincing at all.

The second two studies do not even give the numbers of people studied or even percentages.

[artsylady]

http://www.narth.com/docs/mothersof.html

Here's another one.

[Guest freebird]

Not so fast there Whysoblind - there is plenty of evidence that X-X men can exist, as can X-Y women.

Sexual differentiation occurs at the end of the first trimester of gestation, through the release (or non-release) of testosterone from the testes. In men, this ought to be mediated by the Y chromosome. However, embryologically, this can misfire in X-Xs, or not fire at all in X-Ys - causing genetically male women, and genetically female men.

So in actual fact, the cause of sex differentiation is embryological - it is chemical - but mediated and caused by genes usually.

You should also be careful about equating sex differentiation with hetrosexuality. The fact that homosexuality exists means that sex differentiation doesn't always hetrogenise sexuality. Once again, the evidence is that sexual inclination can be affected by the complex balance of hormones in utero. It isn't necessarily purely genetic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ty u

my point exactly and one i struggled with for many years my sexual chromosomal patteren is XXY i was born a guy but... u get where im going

so i would have to say yes it is genetic. some make the choice. but for me i always new i was. i lied to keep my self safe but now if some1 calls me a fag i shout back ur a breeder.

so this is one homo u cant tear down

[artsylady]

Freebird. If you don't mind the questions: How old were you when you first felt feelings of homosexuality? How old were you when you first engaged in homosexual activity?

[artsylady]

If scientists are trying to say we are born with our sexual desires, then a big can of worms is opened up. Are bisexuals born with the desire to have sex with both sexes?

What will stop pedophiles from making the claim that they were also born with this desire?

Personally, I used to be attracted to tall, dark and handsome men because that is the way I was raised to think men should be. So I married one. After being physically abused, my preference suddenly changed. I was then attracted to a much shorter man with lighter hair. Weird, but I do think our experiences shape our desires.

[WillingToDie]

Homosexuality only occurs in humans. That some environmentally stressed penguins, mere animals, with no females to burn their hormones on try to have babies with males (who are virtually identical to penguin females) is hardly comparable to human homosexuality. Ditto for all other supposed examples of homosexuality in nature.

(edit links)

Edited October 5, 2005 by Dr. Luke

[artsylady]

Good post Deacon.

Homosexual behavior is common in prisons. Why don't homosexual advocates conclude either that homosexuals are for more prone to be criminals, or that homosexuality is caused by stressful environmental situations, especially where there are no available members of the opposite sex? If we were talking about animals, they'd insist that this abnormal, non-congenitall behavior was comparable to normal homosexual behavior and produced at birth.

This brings up a good point.

I also agree there are many variables that can cause a person to be persuaded toward the same sex, and that they are not born that way.

In regards to the question of animals - I've seen male dogs go after other male dogs. Does this make them homosexual dogs? Then again, these same dogs will also go after a female, so I guess they are bisexual. Are these dogs born with a gene that makes them either homosexual, heterosexual or bisexual? Puullease.

I've also seen male dogs trying to hump human legs or anything else they can find. What does this make them, other than an animal with no sense of morals or right or wrong?