The rapture: fact or mystery?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Montana Marv.

 

 

Shalom, Montana Marv.

 

 

Act 2 - When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.  Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.  They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and come to rest on each of them.  All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit enabled them.

 

John 7:39 - By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.  Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

 

Again, the Church began at Pentecost.  Jesus was glorified and He sent us His HS.  The Church age.  The Bride of Christ.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

 

Period

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

I don't care how "loud" you type. Your "final say" is not the end of the matter!

 

You keep saying "the church began at Pentecost," but all that is nothing more than a re-statement of the theological position! Where's the PROOF?! What evidence is there that the CHURCH began at Pentecost? Are you saying that people couldn't be "saved" before the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost? Are you trying to say that there was no "church" without the Holy Spirit's presence?

 

There was no Church without the Holy Spirits presence until after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.  I am talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as in NT times, not the over shadowing of the Spirit in OT times.

 

Eph 3:4-6 - In reading this, then, you; will be able to understand my insight into the Mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.  This Mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members of one body, and shares together in the promise of Christ Jesus.  v. 10 - His intent was that now, through the church the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms.  v20,21 - Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power  that is a work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations.

 

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.  Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -

 

Rom 16:1 - I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea.  ....    v 5 - Greet also the church that meets at their home.  v 16 - Greet one another with a holy kiss.  All the churches of Christ send greetings

 

i Cor 1:2 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, there Lord and ours.

 

Now if one knows the way to salvation in Christ Jesus by His gospel and becomes Spirit filled as promised; Who is this person?  They are both Jew and Gentile who receive the Gospel.  When did this person receive the Holy Spirit.  When did this all start.   Pentecost.  When did individuals become baptized by the Holy Spirit, sealed by Him.  When was this Holy Spirit given to men.  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, then the Holy Spirit will come upon you.

 

What more can I say.  Are you trying to become Jewish, being a Gentile, God forbid.  Salvation by works.  Jesus Christ takes us as we are, where we are at now, not what we think we may be.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

I think it might be helpful if you read what Acts 2 was really all about. It wasn't when the Holy Spirit began indwelling people. It was when the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) EMPOWERED His people! Listen carefully to what Yeshua` said to His disciples just before He left them:

 

Luke 24:45-51

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

KJV

 

Luke 24:49

49 Kai idou egoo apostelloo teen apaggelian tou Patros mou ef’ humas; humeis de kathisate en tee polei heoos hou enduseethe ex hupsous dunamin.

The Greek New Testament (UBS)

 

49 Kai =49 And/also

idou = look/behold

egoo = I 

apostelloo = I-send

teen = the

epaggelian = promise

tou = of-the

Patros = Father

mou = of-me/of-mine/my

ef’ (epi) = upon

humas; = you (plural);

humeis = ye (you plural)

de = but

kathisate = sit-down/wait/tarry

en = in

tee = the

polei = city

heoos = until/unto

hou = at-which-place/where

enduseethe = ye-are-dressed

ex = out-of/from

hupsous = elevation/altitude/the-sky/dignity

dunamin. = power.

 

Acts 1:1-9

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

KJV

 

Acts 1:8

8 Alla leempsesthe dunamin epelthontos tou Hagiou Pneumatos ef’ humas kai esesthe mou martures en te Ierousaleem kai en pasee tee Ioudaia kai Samareia kai  heoos eschatou tees gees.

The Greek New Testament (UBS)

 

8 Alla = 8 But

leempsesthe = ye-shall-receive

dunamin = power

epelthontos = is-come

tou = the

Hagiou = Holy/Awesome/Clean/Pure

Pneumatos = Spirit

ef’ (epi) = upon

humas = you (plural)

kai = and/also

esesthe = ye-shall-be

mou = of-me/my

martures = witnesses

en = in

te = both/also

Ierousaleem = Yerushalayim; Jerusalem

kai = and/also

en = in

pasee = all

tee = of-the

Ioudaia = Y’hudah; Judah; Judea

kai = and/also

Samareia = Shomron; Samaria

kai = and/also 

heoos = until/unto

eschatou = farthest/final-part

tees = of-the

gees. = ground/earth.

 

So, they were to be immersed with the Ruach haQodesh; the point was not that the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit or the Ruach haQodesh would come upon them any differently, but that they would receive POWER which was the promise of the Father, POWER from on high! It's the SAME Ruach haQodesh, the same "coming upon you," the same God the Father as the source of that power, and the same power that God had given to the prophets of old! The only difference between them before and after Acts 2 was the ANOINTING of the Spirit hadn't yet been given to them; they hadn't as yet been given His power!

 

I'm not "a Gentile trying to become Jewish"; I am ALREADY a Jew because of the bloodline into which I was adopted - through YESHUA`S blood on the cross! It's not of works at all; it was given by grace! It's not MY deed or anything which I could have done; it's all based on the FINISHED work of Calvary! He became sin for us who knew no sin, so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him! It is GOD'S act of declaring us His righteousness; HE justified us and Fathered us into His family. HE caused us to be "born again!" But, into what part of God's family were we born? Well, weren't we made "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ?" Well, of what was the Messiah - the Christ - an heir?

 

Luke 1:30-33

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

KJV

 

He was AND IS a JEW! He is from the tribe of Y'hudah or Judah! And, He is the Son of David! David's Heir! Don't fight this; don't balk at this! Don't frown and wrinkle your brow, trying to find some way around this! EMBRACE this fact and ENJOY it! It should be cause for rejoicing and celebrating!

 

That's why we are told in Revelation:

 

Revelation 20:6

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

KJV

 

and then again later:

 

Revelation 22:3-5

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

KJV

 

We'll have a job to do of God's making, both in the Millennium and in Eternity!

[Spock]

Is the rapture really going to take place or do all saints expect to enter the tribulation?

Easy question for me.

100% absolutely. In fact, bet the house on it. Jesus will come to meet his bride in the air to take us to the home he has prepared for us. (John 14)

It's coming soon, but first, I believe the next event is the psalm 83 war. Once that happens, this will go fast.

[Spock]

The Rapture is not another name for the Second Coming. As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is. I say unscheduled and secret because its specific timing will remain unknown until it actually happens. On the other hand, The Second Coming is a scheduled public event where Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish a Kingdom here. I say scheduled and public because the general time of His coming will be known on Earth over 3 1/2 years in advance, and public because everyone on Earth will be able to witness His arrival. Matthew 24:29-30 says it will happen shortly after the Great Tribulation has ended and all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky.

Since we have been justified through Christ, and since GOD sees us as without sin, why then would we have to go through the same judgments as those who have rejected Christ and the free offer of salvation. Think about it.

There isn't one thing on this post that would cause me to raise an eyebrow. Nice

Next....

[Spock]

Is the rapture really going to take place or do all saints expect to enter the tribulation?

 

The rapture will take place one day, but nobody knows the day or hour but the Father.

Agree. This is why it has to occur before the 70th week of Daniel commences. Once the 70th week begins, you can pretty much narrow it down.

[Spock]

Has the peace treaty been signed?

My guess is you won't be here to see it.

[wingnut-]

 

The Rapture is not another name for the Second Coming. As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is. I say unscheduled and secret because its specific timing will remain unknown until it actually happens. On the other hand, The Second Coming is a scheduled public event where Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish a Kingdom here. I say scheduled and public because the general time of His coming will be known on Earth over 3 1/2 years in advance, and public because everyone on Earth will be able to witness His arrival. Matthew 24:29-30 says it will happen shortly after the Great Tribulation has ended and all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky.

Since we have been justified through Christ, and since GOD sees us as without sin, why then would we have to go through the same judgments as those who have rejected Christ and the free offer of salvation. Think about it.

There isn't one thing on this post that would cause me to raise an eyebrow. Nice

Next....

 

The phrase "unscheduled secret event" should cause you to raise an eyebrow considering Paul wrote something that directly contradicts this.

 

I Thessalonians  5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, ² for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ³ While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

⁴ But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

And what was this day of the thief all about?

 

Matthew 24:39  "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. ⁴⁰ Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. ⁴³ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

 

Jesus gives the clearest depiction of the rapture and attaches the sign of the thief to it.  Paul tells us that this day should not surprise us because we are children of the light, no secret, no unscheduled event.  Jesus tells us precisely when it will happen in Revelation as well, making it a clearly scheduled event at a very specific time.

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

[rollinTHUNDER]

 

 

Is the rapture really going to take place or do all saints expect to enter the tribulation?

 

The rapture will take place one day, but nobody knows the day or hour but the Father.

 

Agree. This is why it has to occur before the 70th week of Daniel commences. Once the 70th week begins, you can pretty much narrow it down.

 

I didn't know you were a pre-tribber, Spock.  

 

Oh well, you'll find out the truth soon enough, as will many others.  I believe we are getting very close to the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.  If so, it will be interesting what you pre-tribbers think after the covenant is confirmed and you are still here.

 

Don't look now, but the pre-trib rapture will be the first theory to fall.

 

Cheers

[Spock]

Is the rapture really going to take place or do all saints expect to enter the tribulation?

 

The rapture will take place one day, but nobody knows the day or hour but the Father.

Agree. This is why it has to occur before the 70th week of Daniel commences. Once the 70th week begins, you can pretty much narrow it down.

I didn't know you were a pre-tribber, Spock.  

 

Oh well, you'll find out the truth soon enough, as will many others.  I believe we are getting very close to the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.  If so, it will be interesting what you pre-tribbers think after the covenant is confirmed and you are still here.

 

Don't look now, but the pre-trib rapture will be the first theory to fall.

 

Cheers

I didn't know I was a pre tribber either. I am this week at least.

If i do witness the beginning of the 70th week, bring it on baby. I pray the Luke 21:36 prayer religiously and I will know my Saviors return is right at the doorstop. Of course I may have to witness the abomination but hey, I'm not looking for antichrist, rather I am looking for CHRIST!

Ya-hoooooooooooo. Come quickly lord Jesus!

[Spock]

The Rapture is not another name for the Second Coming. As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is. I say unscheduled and secret because its specific timing will remain unknown until it actually happens. On the other hand, The Second Coming is a scheduled public event where Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish a Kingdom here. I say scheduled and public because the general time of His coming will be known on Earth over 3 1/2 years in advance, and public because everyone on Earth will be able to witness His arrival. Matthew 24:29-30 says it will happen shortly after the Great Tribulation has ended and all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky.

Since we have been justified through Christ, and since GOD sees us as without sin, why then would we have to go through the same judgments as those who have rejected Christ and the free offer of salvation. Think about it.

There isn't one thing on this post that would cause me to raise an eyebrow. Nice

Next....

The phrase "unscheduled secret event" should cause you to raise an eyebrow considering Paul wrote something that directly contradicts this.

 

I Thessalonians  5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, ² for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ³ While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

⁴ But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

And what was this day of the thief all about?

 

Matthew 24:39  "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. ⁴⁰ Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. ⁴³ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

 

Jesus gives the clearest depiction of the rapture and attaches the sign of the thief to it.  Paul tells us that this day should not surprise us because we are children of the light, no secret, no unscheduled event.  Jesus tells us precisely when it will happen in Revelation as well, making it a clearly scheduled event at a very specific time.

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

That's right- only a secret rapture can fulfill these words you quoted. Nothing else in my mind could do that.

Secret rapture to remove his bride, and then the time of Jacobs trouble will begin. The time God fulfills his destiny with ISRAEL.

[wingnut-]

 

 

 

The Rapture is not another name for the Second Coming. As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is. I say unscheduled and secret because its specific timing will remain unknown until it actually happens. On the other hand, The Second Coming is a scheduled public event where Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish a Kingdom here. I say scheduled and public because the general time of His coming will be known on Earth over 3 1/2 years in advance, and public because everyone on Earth will be able to witness His arrival. Matthew 24:29-30 says it will happen shortly after the Great Tribulation has ended and all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky.

Since we have been justified through Christ, and since GOD sees us as without sin, why then would we have to go through the same judgments as those who have rejected Christ and the free offer of salvation. Think about it.

There isn't one thing on this post that would cause me to raise an eyebrow. Nice

Next....

The phrase "unscheduled secret event" should cause you to raise an eyebrow considering Paul wrote something that directly contradicts this.

 

I Thessalonians  5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, ² for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ³ While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

⁴ But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

And what was this day of the thief all about?

 

Matthew 24:39  "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. ⁴⁰ Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. ⁴³ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

 

Jesus gives the clearest depiction of the rapture and attaches the sign of the thief to it.  Paul tells us that this day should not surprise us because we are children of the light, no secret, no unscheduled event.  Jesus tells us precisely when it will happen in Revelation as well, making it a clearly scheduled event at a very specific time.

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

That's right- only a secret rapture can fulfill these words you quoted. Nothing else in my mind could do that.

Secret rapture to remove his bride, and then the time of Jacobs trouble will begin. The time God fulfills his destiny with ISRAEL.

 

 

I don't know how it can be a secret based on the scriptures, particularly since He announces when it happens, and since Paul says it won't be a surprise.