Jesus is still the King of the Jews / of Israel

[thereselittleflower]

Shiloh,  I don't understand how you manage to twist my words so.

 

Never once did I say the "meaning" of the "word" apocalypse "means" symbolic.

 

I said that the NATURE of apocalyptic writings is symbolic.   

 

"nature' =/= "meaning"

 

Examples of apocalyptic literature:

 

 

Proto-Apocalyptic literature (5th-4th centuries BCE)

 

· "Third Isaiah" (= Isaiah, chapters 56-66)

 

· Ezekiel (esp. chapters 37-48)

 

 

Early Jewish Apocalyptic (late 3rd century BCE to 70 CE)

· I ENOCH ca. 225 BCE (and forward; 5 sections of compositions, some of which show Christian reworking)

 

· DANIEL ca. 165 BCE (included in Hebrew Bible)

· BOOK OF JUBILEES ca. 150-100 BCE

· SIBYLLINE ORACLES
Book III ca. 150 BCE (and forward)

· TESTAMENT OF XII
PATRIARCHS hca. late 2nd century BCE (+)

· PSALMS OF SOLOM. ca. 48 BCE

· TESTAMENT OF MOSES
(*Assumption of) ca. 6-36 CE (but based on earlier 2nd cent. BCE text)

· MARTYRDOM OF ISAIAH 1st century CE

· DEAD SEA SCROLLS ca. 2nd century BCE to 69 CE
(selections, e.g., "The War Scroll")

· LIFE OF ADAM AND EVE or
APOCALYPSE OF MOSES ca. 70 CE

· TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM ca. 1st century CE

· II ENOCH (*Book of Secrets of Enoch') ca. 1st century CE

 

 

Later Jewish and Christian Apocalypses· SIBYLLINE ORACLES (Jewish)

Book IV ca. 80 CE

 

· II EDRAS (IV EZRA) ca. 80-90 CE (chs. 3-14) later + (chs. 1-2, 15)

· II BARUCH after ca. 90

· APOCALYPSE OF ABRAHAM ca. 70-100 CE

· APOCALYPSE OF JOHN ca. 90-95 CE

· III BARUCH ca. 2nd century CE

· SIBYLLINE ORACLES (Jewish & Christian)
Book V ca. 2nd century CE

· APOCALYPSE OF PETER (Christian) early 2nd CE

· THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS early 2nd CE (Christian)

 

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/primary/white.html

 

 

 

For an example of non christian/non jewish apocalyptic literature  -  this is from Persia:

 

 

THE BAHMAN YAST

 

 

This conclusion of the Persian version describes how adversity departs from the world, and ten people are satisfied with the milk of one cow, when Hûshêdar-mâh appears and his millennium commences. On his coming from his conference with Aûharmazd the sun stands still for twenty days and nights, in consequence of which two-thirds of the people in the world believe in the religion. Meat is no longer eaten, but only milk and butter, and a hundred people are satisfied with the milk of one cow. Hûshêdar-mâh destroys the terrible serpent, which accompanies apostasy, by means of the divine glory and Avesta formulas; he clears all noxious creatures out of the world, and wild animals live harmlessly among mankind; the fiends of apostasy and deceit depart from the world, which becomes populous and delightful, and mankind abstain from falsehood. After the five-hundredth year of Hûshêdar-mâh has passed away, Sôshyans (Sâsân) appears, and destroys the fiend who torments fire. The sun stands still for thirty days and nights, when all mankind believe in the religion, and the year becomes exactly 360 days. Dahâk escapes from his confinement, and reigns for a day and a half in the world with much tyranny; when Sôshyans, rouses Sâm Narîmân, who accepts the religion and becomes immortal. Sâm calls upon Dahâk to accept the religion, but the latter proposes that they should together seize upon heaven for themselves, whereupon Sâm kills him. All evil having departed from the world mankind become like the archangels, and the resurrection takes place, which is described with many of the same details as are mentioned in Bund. XXX.

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe05/sbe0506.htm

 

 

 

As you can see, imagery and themes are very similar.

[Guest shiloh357]

I didn't accuse you of saying that apocalypse means "symbolic,"  but that is how the word is treated by others.   It's the same with "Armageddon."   It is used in pop culture to refer to the end of the world. 

 

Apocalyptic is being misused the same way as "Armageddon."

 

You are using the word "apocalyptic"  in a way that doesn't really jive with the meaning of the Greek word, "apocalupsis."    That word has been hijacked to refer to anything that has to do with end times.

 

You go to a lot of work to refute things I never said.

[Ezra]

I said that the NATURE of apocalyptic writings is symbolic. 

For Christians who believe that the Bible is Divine revelation, the only books which matter are those within its covers.  These have been accepted as canonical by all Bible-belieiving Christians.  All the other books in the so-called apocalytic literature are not inspired. Some may be entertaining or even edifying to some degree.  But in general they should be ignored.

 

When you come to Daniel and Revelation, there is no denying that there is a lot of imagery.  But those images are also interpreted as pertaining to real, literal, historical events and people, and Revelation is history written in advance (if you will).  So nobody is ignoring history. The image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream was clearly interpreted as representing empires (called kingdoms) which would impact on the nation of Israel.

 

Therefore it would be absurd to categorize these things as "symbolic".  Symbolic of what reality?  Since every symbol must represent reality, what is the reality?  God tells us what the reality is.  He says, for example, that the seven *stars* are symbolic of seven angels.  That the seven *candlesticks* (lampstands) are symbolic of real, physical, literal, historical, geographical churches in Asia Minor (Turkey).  And that is precisely what we are talking about. REALITY NOT FANTASY. Consequently, the Millennium will be a *hard* (factual) and glorious reality.

[Your closest friendnt]

Jesus is reigning over the Kings of the earth.

That should state "Jesus shall reign (future tense) over the kings of the earth, and those kings who remain will be redemeed and under the authority of Christ.

At present, God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ are allowing Satan to be the "god of this world", since a time will come in the very near future when Satan will be given complete authority over all the rulers and nations of the earth (Rev 13). Please note carefully how great will be the control of Satan for 42 months (3 1/2 years), and take specific note of verses 5,7, and 8:

⁴ And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

⁵ And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

⁶ And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

⁷ And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

In view of this, we cannot possibly postulate that Jesus is presently reigning over the kings of the earth. That would require that Satan and all his evil spirits and demons are presently confined to the Bottomless Pit, and that is really not true. It is one thing to be deceived by Satan. It is another thing to be self-deceived.

Ezra that is not what Revelation 1:5 says.

It says Jesus is reigning over the kings of the earth right now.

"Shall" does not need to refer to a future time period Shall also has the sense of what one must be doing,or even must have done. A parent trying to get their rebellious child to go to bed may say, for emphasis "You SHALL go to bed right this instant!" or "You shall clean your room right now", It is clear the parent is speaking of the present moment, right now. "Shall" does not have to refer to a future event.

If "shall" must always be understood as referring to something in the future, which does a grave injustice to the various ways in which the word may be, and is, actually used other than to indicate a future event, then it must mean "shall humble himself"

"He that shall humble himself shall be exalted"(Mt23:12).

is something that is future to when Jesus said those words, and no one had ever in the history of the world humbled themselves before.

That would be a nonsensical interpretation since those who have already died are not going to be humbling themselves in the future, they either already have done so or haven't. And so "shall" is not strictly referring to a future event, but the act of humbling oneself in regards to all people who have ever existed, even many thousands of years ago.

You are a very wise person

[thereselittleflower]

The mental and logical gymnastics required in order to make a literal interpretation of these apocalyptic pasages "work" seem to know no bounds. . . . . .

[thereselittleflower]

 

I said that the NATURE of apocalyptic writings is symbolic. 

For Christians who believe that the Bible is Divine revelation, the only books which matter are those within its covers.  These have been accepted as canonical by all Bible-belieiving Christians.  All the other books in the so-called apocalytic literature are not inspired. Some may be entertaining or even edifying to some degree.  But in general they should be ignored.

 

When you come to Daniel and Revelation, there is no denying that there is a lot of imagery.  But those images are also interpreted as pertaining to real, literal, historical events and people, and Revelation is history written in advance (if you will).  So nobody is ignoring history. The image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream was clearly interpreted as representing empires (called kingdoms) which would impact on the nation of Israel.

 

Therefore it would be absurd to categorize these things as "symbolic".  Symbolic of what reality?  Since every symbol must represent reality, what is the reality?  God tells us what the reality is.  He says, for example, that the seven *stars* are symbolic of seven angels.  That the seven *candlesticks* (lampstands) are symbolic of real, physical, literal, historical, geographical churches in Asia Minor (Turkey).  And that is precisely what we are talking about. REALITY NOT FANTASY. Consequently, the Millennium will be a *hard* (factual) and glorious reality.

 

 

 

For christians who truly recognize that the Bible is DIVINE revelation, they also recognize the only words which matter are not all contained within its covers.

 

In fact, protestantism uses an abridged version of scriptures.  The full version of scriptures used by the Early Church contain 7 books not found in protestant bibles.   Why would anyone want to use an abridged bible?

 

 

And in fact scriptures command us to follow not only what was written  (scripture), but also what was verbally taught and not written.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm, and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

 

 

So where do we find these traditions verbally taught but not written today?   How do we fulfill this command of scripture?

[thereselittleflower]

I didn't accuse you of saying that apocalypse means "symbolic,"  but that is how the word is treated by others.   It's the same with "Armageddon."   It is used in pop culture to refer to the end of the world. 

 

Apocalyptic is being misused the same way as "Armageddon."

 

You are using the word "apocalyptic"  in a way that doesn't really jive with the meaning of the Greek word, "apocalupsis."    That word has been hijacked to refer to anything that has to do with end times.

 

You go to a lot of work to refute things I never said.

 

 

On the contrary, I am using the word Apocalyptic as understood by scholars of the ancient languages and ancient literary forms.

 

 

Are you being deliberately ambiguous so as to imply one thing, but then be able to deny it later?

[FresnoJoe]

On the contrary, I am using the word Apocalyptic....

as understood by scholars....

of the ancient languages....

and ancient literary....

forms....

 

~

 

Oh

 

Full Definition of APOCALYPTIC

 

1

:  of, relating to, or resembling an apocalypse

2

:  forecasting the ultimate destiny of the world :  prophetic

3

:  foreboding imminent disaster or final doom :  terrible

4

:  wildly unrestrained :  grandiose

5

:  ultimately decisive :  climactic <an apocalyptic battle> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apocalyptic

 

Much

 

“Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me. There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am. John 14:1-3 (NLT)

 

More

 

I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them. He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.” Revelation 21:3-4 (NLT)

 

Than Final

 

And the one sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” And then he said to me, “Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true.” And he also said, “It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega—the Beginning and the End. Revelation 21:5-6 (NLT)

 

Doom

 

To all who are thirsty I will give freely from the springs of the water of life. All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. Revelation 21:7 (NLT)

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[JohnD]

As I see it, 90% of the posts here that redefine the Kingship of the Lord Jesus Christ have to do with the fact that they are not considering he is currently in the far country and will return when least expected to make known his Kingship beyond the shadow of doubt.

[thereselittleflower]

My dear brother Joe,  be careful of using modern definitions of a word that had a different meaning back when John penned the book called  the Apocalypse of John.