Tough Questions

[Sola Scriptora]

No, there is a right and wrong argument from incredulity. You want to dismiss it compeltely. That is illogical. That would be like putting the moral conduct of a child who stole a cookie on par with Hitler and his crimes. That DEMANDS incredulity. I am afraid that you are unable to interact honestly and logically. You assert that there is no Deity. You assert a causeless effect. You cannot provide and examples of such a phenomena. You ignore direct questions. Threrefore you lose this debate. But that is not the point, the point is that you see that you cannot say "there is no God".

Your positions and statements are taken right out of Gordon Stein's book AN ANTOHOLOGY OF ATHEISM AND RATIONALISM, and another deceptive little book by George Smith-ATHEISM, THE CASE AGAINST GOD.

Their arguments, which they claim not to make or assert, are refutable, as are their definitions of atheism.

[Guest edgar serrano]

Like you, I also for 33 years did not belive in God.

Fact is, weather you believe in God or not is not your real question. Better yet, is not your real problem.

If you decide to reject God, His Son and the Holy Spirit is of no importance to you either.

The fact that you say you do not believe is quite simple also. You believe. What does this mean?

Some how, some way you have managed to process in your heart, oops, meant to say your mind, that you have a belief. In which case you say you do not believe.

I wonder how it is you managed to process such thought. Don't you?

Bottom line...God believes in you, God cares for you and furthermore God loves you my dear friend.

I just hope that the same way you have managed to not believe you will starting today, by faith, belive in Him whom has sent His only Son to die for yours, and mine, sins.

Quick prayer before I close.

Heavenly Father and loving God, Yours is the glory and the power in heaven and in earth. May Your Spirit continue to flow among your children so that we may be prepared to offer hope to those that find themselves at the threshold of understanding that there are no accidents. That this very day they can, by faith, ask to receive Your Holy Son into their hearts so that they may also receive Your eternal salvation, love, hope, kindness, trust, and a new life in YOU.

In Jesus' name. Amen.

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear Sola Scriptora,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

there is a right and wrong argument from incredulity

Show me one argument from incredulity that is correct.

I am afraid that you are unable to interact honestly and logically

I have been nothing but honest and logical.

You assert that there is no Deity

This is news to me, please show me where I have asserted such a thing.

You assert a causeless effect

I have suggested that the universe could be a causeless effect, much the same as your god.

You cannot provide and examples of such a phenomena

You nor I can provide examples of this unless you or I first postulate its existence. For example, you postulate your god's existence as a causeless phenomena.

the point is that you see that you cannot say "there is no God".

Again, this is news to me. You even used quotes to misquote me. Please find which post where I have said such a thing. I think you are making things up as you go along and attributing things to me that I have not written. This is not fair.

I feel that your posts have been getting increasingly hostile to me. There is no need for this. The fact remains, that I do not believe in any god/s, and arguments of incredulity (however correct you may think them to be) are flawed and irrational in my opinion.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear edgar serrano,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

I am assuming you addressed the last post to me. Please forgive me if I am incorrect.

Some how, some way you have managed to process in your heart, oops, meant to say your mind, that you have a belief. In which case you say you do not believe.

I wonder how it is you managed to process such thought. Don't you

I do not understand you. How can a non-belief be considered a belief? If I lack the belief that there is a invisible pink unicorn in my garage, how can this be a belief that there is no invisible pink unicorn in my garage? It is illogical.

I can certainly lack the belief that there is an invisible pink unicorn in my garage. That does not translate to I do not believe in invisible pink unicorns. One cannot prove a negative. One should not have to. One does not need to disprove something that hasn't been proven in the first place.

Bottom line...God believes in you, God cares for you and furthermore God loves you my dear friend.

If this is so, then your god will have no problems in presenting me with the evidence I require to believe in him. I am open to it.

Thank you for your prayer on my behalf. I sure appreciate good thoughts directed my way. It is a respite from the other posts where I sense much negativity.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[refugepsa91]

I can certainly lack the belief that there is an invisible pink unicorn in my garage. That does not translate to I do not believe in invisible pink unicorns. One cannot prove a negative. One should not have to. One does not need to disprove something that hasn't been proven in the first place.

Don't want to get my head bit-off here but the pink unicorn reference made me laugh...sorry don't want to offend.

UndecidedFrog....lets talk about that "pink unicorn" for a moment...first show me all the witness accounts of all the people generation after generation who believed this pink unicorn existed...did they document it? Has it been written down and survived for thousands of years? Hmmm the bible has....can your pink unicorn say the same thing?

By the way Sola take a deep breath and calm down...name calling is not going to accomplish anything here

Love and Blessings,

Angel

By the way undecidedfrog...your offcially greeeeeen, very appropriate considering your handle

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear refugepsa91,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian

Thank you for your kind response. It will not be me that bites your head off.

Do not worry about offending me, for I do not worship any invisible pink unicorns.

first show me all the witness accounts of all the people generation after generation who believed this pink unicorn existed...did they document it? Has it been written down and survived for thousands of years? Hmmm the bible has....can your pink unicorn say the same thing? 

To my knowledge, there have been no witness accounts of anyone who believed this invisible pink unicorn existed. I do not wonder at this since, a priori, the pink unicorn is invisible. If these people did not see the invisible pink unicorn, how could they document it?

However, I also do not know if in history, any person has claimed that he has seen or was this invisible pink unicorn. I would think if these persons had claimed such, they probably would be committed to an insance asylum now, or if they lived in the past, to be outcast and exiled or executed or crucified for fear that they may spread such radical thoughts/disease.

To my knowledge, no written document exists describing such persons. However, if there were written historical documents that survived the ages, does this mean that we must believe what others wrote down? Is what is written down and survived the ages necessarily the truth? I think not.

Respectfully yours,

UndecidedFrog

[refugepsa91]

Frog....(you don't mind if I shorten your handle a little do ya?)

Personally, yes I believe what has survived the ages (the bible) Haven't events written of in the bible been proven? Archeologists are finding some amazing artifacts and ancient cities all the time...and proving what the bible says happened to these cities and the people in them. I know that may not be a very good analogy, but hey give me credit for trying here

I have a feeling that God may have tried to reveal himself to you...but maybe you wrote off the experience to a coincidence...or something like that...have you really tried...I mean if you are asking mechanically for God to reveal himself you are doomed for failure...you truly have to want it. Well anyway I will pray that God reveals Himself to you in a way that makes your hair stand up on end

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear refugepsa91,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Frog....(you don't mind if I shorten your handle a little do ya?)

Not at all.

Haven't events written of in the bible been proven? Archeologists are finding some amazing artifacts and ancient cities all the time...and proving what the bible says happened to these cities and the people in them. I know that may not be a very good analogy, but hey give me credit for trying here 

I give you credit for a good try.

Yes, some events in the bible have been corroborated such as Noah's flood. Summerian artifacts point to an earlier account of the flood such as the epic of Gilgamesh. However, the details do not corroborate. the 40 days/40 nights thing was more like a week only in the other account. However, just because the bible may have some truth in it, does it mean that all of it must be truth? Does it mean that even the truthful parts have not been exaggerated? I think not.

Yes, some archeological evidence show that certain cities, towns existed back when. However, this does not give the stamp of truth to what happened in those cities or towns. It is like millions of years from now, someone finds archaeological evidence that there was indeed a river in the US called the Mississippi. Does this mean that everyone should now believe the book entitled Huckleberry Finn was truth since it correctly mentioned the existence of the same river? I think not.

I have a feeling that God may have tried to reveal himself to you...but maybe you wrote off the experience to a coincidence...or something like that...have you really tried...I mean if you are asking mechanically for God to reveal himself you are doomed for failure...you truly have to want it. Well anyway I will pray that God reveals Himself to you in a way that makes your hair stand up on end 

I am trying to recall all those experiences of coincidence in my life. Hmmm. I cannot really point to any coincidence that was meaningful.

Yes, of course I have tried Angel, do you think that I would pass up an opportunity at eternal life as many claim here? I am willing to believe if given the evidence that would make me believe. If there is a god, I truly want to know him. Who wouldn't?

Thank you for your prayers and kind thoughts. God need only reveal himself to me in the way only he would know how. And it has nothing to do with making my hair stand on end.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[refugepsa91]

Thank you for your prayers and kind thoughts. God need only reveal himself to me in the way only he would know how. And it has nothing to do with making my hair stand on end. 

Yeah but wouldn't that make a GREAT statement....its something that would stick in your memory

I guess its like going around in circles...where you say that some truth doesn't make the whole truth...I say some truth is reason enough for some considerable thought. I wish that it was enough proof to you through the people here who care about you. Confirmation of God's existence can come from anywhere...and as long as you stay open to that, as you say you are...then I for one have great hopes for you...

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[Sola Scriptora]

Frog:

After a few exhanges with you and your responses, Super Jew said to you:

Oh that's just pathetic. No offense, but any claim you make to an intellectual debate will not be taken seriously

So I don't think its just me. Claiming you're not saying there is no God by saying you have no reason to believe in God because you've seen no evidence is simply not true. I'm not hostile towards you, I reject your claims to logic and rationalism, when you consistently violate the rules of both to continue to pretend there is no evidence for God. It sounds to me like you don;t want the evidence.

The Bible says: "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?" Do you agree with that?

I ask that because you ask me to present you a valid argument from incredulity. I did, and you didn't refute it or acknowledge it.

To compare a discussion about the origin of all things, and the subject matter being God Himself, the infinite Creator, who, if He does exist, must be all-wise, all-good and completely HOLY... to take such a serious subject of a Being who is acknowledged in every culture and in all history. To compare discussing His existence to believing in pink unicorns is simply incredible to me! How can you even make that kind of equivocation and expect to be taken seriously??? It shows where your heart is at.

Do you consider a child who steals a cookie as wicked and evil and malignant as Adolf Hitler and his actions in exterminating Jews and leading the whole world into a war that killed millions more??? Do you? Is there a moral equivocation here, yes or no? If you say yes, you are either warped, or wicked. Have your pick.

I am not hostile, simply consistent. Sometimes we need a kick in the pants when we are being foolish and obstinant. Your welcome

Edited December 29, 2004 by Sola Scriptora