OEC and The New Heavens and New Earth

[OneLight]

 

 

I didnt say that evil is sourced in God, I pointed out that God created neither evil or darkness.  There is a reason that darkness is often equated to evil in the Bible, they are neither created things but the absence of something.  Evil is the absence of Goodness and darkness if the absence of light.  To say that God created darkness is to at the same time attribute evil to God.

 

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

I form the light, and create darkness http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/isaiah-45-7.html

Natural light, or that light which was produced at the first creation, and of which the sun is the fountain and source; or day which is light, and night which is darkness, the constant revolutions of which were formed, appointed, and are continued by the Lord, ( Genesis 1:3-5 ) ( 8:22 ) , moral light, or the light of nature, the rational understanding in man; spiritual light, or the light of grace, by which things spiritual and supernatural are known; the light of joy and comfort from Christ, the sun of righteousness; and the light of eternal glory and happiness: this is all from God, of his producing and giving; and so darkness is his creature; that natural darkness which was upon the face of the earth at the beginning; what arises from the absence of the sun, or is occasioned by the eclipses of it, or very black clouds; or any extraordinary darkness, such as was in Egypt; or deprivation of sight, blindness in men; and, in a figurative sense, ignorance and darkness that follow upon sin; judicial blindness, God gives men up and leaves them to; temporal afflictions and distresses, and everlasting punishment, which is blackness of darkness:

I make peace, and create evil;

peace between God and men is made by Christ, who is God over all; spiritual peace of conscience comes from God, through Christ, by the Spirit; eternal glory and happiness is of God, which saints enter into at death; peace among the saints themselves here, and with the men of the world; peace in churches, and in the world, God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God; see ( Job 2:10 ) ( Amos 3:6 ) :

I the Lord do all these things;

and therefore must be the true God, and the one and only one. Kimchi, from Saadiah Gaon, observes, that this is said against those that assert two gods, the one good, and the other evil; whereas the Lord is the Maker of good and evil, and therefore must be above all; and it is worthy of observation, that the Persian Magi, before Zoroastres F13, held two first causes, the one light, or the good god, the author of all good; and the other darkness, or the evil god, the author of all evil; the one they called Oromazes, the other Arimanius; and, as Dr. Prideaux F14 observes,

 

 

That is a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.   I read that and I picture a person trying to sound smart without saying a thing.

 

 

A sign of having no defense is personal attacks, which is why it is against the ToS.  Either show the error you see, or be silent.  Do not attack people personally 

[Sheniy]

Anyone know why clb's post on the Holy of Holies and the Temple was removed?  I thought there was some interesting points in there.  And some verses I wanted to check out.

 

 

 

 

I didnt say that evil is sourced in God, I pointed out that God created neither evil or darkness.  There is a reason that darkness is often equated to evil in the Bible, they are neither created things but the absence of something.  Evil is the absence of Goodness and darkness if the absence of light.  To say that God created darkness is to at the same time attribute evil to God.

 

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
 

I form the light, and create darkness http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/isaiah-45-7.html
Natural light, or that light which was produced at the first creation, and of which the sun is the fountain and source; or day which is light, and night which is darkness, the constant revolutions of which were formed, appointed, and are continued by the Lord, ( Genesis 1:3-5 ) ( 8:22 ) , moral light, or the light of nature, the rational understanding in man; spiritual light, or the light of grace, by which things spiritual and supernatural are known; the light of joy and comfort from Christ, the sun of righteousness; and the light of eternal glory and happiness: this is all from God, of his producing and giving; and so darkness is his creature; that natural darkness which was upon the face of the earth at the beginning; what arises from the absence of the sun, or is occasioned by the eclipses of it, or very black clouds; or any extraordinary darkness, such as was in Egypt; or deprivation of sight, blindness in men; and, in a figurative sense, ignorance and darkness that follow upon sin; judicial blindness, God gives men up and leaves them to; temporal afflictions and distresses, and everlasting punishment, which is blackness of darkness:

I make peace, and create evil;
peace between God and men is made by Christ, who is God over all; spiritual peace of conscience comes from God, through Christ, by the Spirit; eternal glory and happiness is of God, which saints enter into at death; peace among the saints themselves here, and with the men of the world; peace in churches, and in the world, God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God; see ( Job 2:10 ) ( Amos 3:6 ) :

I the Lord do all these things;
and therefore must be the true God, and the one and only one. Kimchi, from Saadiah Gaon, observes, that this is said against those that assert two gods, the one good, and the other evil; whereas the Lord is the Maker of good and evil, and therefore must be above all; and it is worthy of observation, that the Persian Magi, before Zoroastres F13, held two first causes, the one light, or the good god, the author of all good; and the other darkness, or the evil god, the author of all evil; the one they called Oromazes, the other Arimanius; and, as Dr. Prideaux F14 observes,

 

 

 

I think it's interesting that 'light' also signifies truth and morality while 'darkness' is also the lack of them.  The word "choshek" can mean "death", as well, and it's opposite in this verse, " 'owr", can also mean "light of life".  Same word for 'light' as in Gen 1:3. It is...illuminating. Haha.

 

Also interesting: our two favorite hebrew words "bara'" and "'asah" are both in this verse. Twice. 

 

I have no agenda in pointing this out.  I just thought it was interesting.

 

 

 

 

[Enoch2021]

 

might I suggest a quick read of this thread...http://www.worthychr...od-create-evil/

 

or this one...http://www.worthychr...d-created-evil/

 

 

May I suggest a quick read of:  http://www.thekingsbible.com/BibleText.aspx?bibleid=23001001#

 

then this: http://www.thekingsbible.com/BibleText.aspx?bibleid=1001001

 

[LookingForAnswers]

 

might I suggest a quick read of this thread...http://www.worthychr...od-create-evil/

 

or this one...http://www.worthychr...d-created-evil/

 

 

May I suggest a quick read of:  http://www.thekingsbible.com/BibleText.aspx?bibleid=23001001#

 

then this: http://www.thekingsbible.com/BibleText.aspx?bibleid=1001001

 

 

Thank you for the links, but I have read that book from stem to stern and it should never be a "quick" read.  If you get a chance to read it all you will find that to create moral evil would be against the very nature of God so for most of us there is a different interpretation for this passage than the one you seem to hold.  This is a favorite passage of atheist to try and show a contradiction in the Bible, but a thorough reading shows they are in error and not the Bible.

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

 

I didnt say that evil is sourced in God, I pointed out that God created neither evil or darkness.  There is a reason that darkness is often equated to evil in the Bible, they are neither created things but the absence of something.  Evil is the absence of Goodness and darkness if the absence of light.  To say that God created darkness is to at the same time attribute evil to God.

 

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

I form the light, and create darkness http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/isaiah-45-7.html

Natural light, or that light which was produced at the first creation, and of which the sun is the fountain and source; or day which is light, and night which is darkness, the constant revolutions of which were formed, appointed, and are continued by the Lord, ( Genesis 1:3-5 ) ( 8:22 ) , moral light, or the light of nature, the rational understanding in man; spiritual light, or the light of grace, by which things spiritual and supernatural are known; the light of joy and comfort from Christ, the sun of righteousness; and the light of eternal glory and happiness: this is all from God, of his producing and giving; and so darkness is his creature; that natural darkness which was upon the face of the earth at the beginning; what arises from the absence of the sun, or is occasioned by the eclipses of it, or very black clouds; or any extraordinary darkness, such as was in Egypt; or deprivation of sight, blindness in men; and, in a figurative sense, ignorance and darkness that follow upon sin; judicial blindness, God gives men up and leaves them to; temporal afflictions and distresses, and everlasting punishment, which is blackness of darkness:

I make peace, and create evil;

peace between God and men is made by Christ, who is God over all; spiritual peace of conscience comes from God, through Christ, by the Spirit; eternal glory and happiness is of God, which saints enter into at death; peace among the saints themselves here, and with the men of the world; peace in churches, and in the world, God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God; see ( Job 2:10 ) ( Amos 3:6 ) :

I the Lord do all these things;

and therefore must be the true God, and the one and only one. Kimchi, from Saadiah Gaon, observes, that this is said against those that assert two gods, the one good, and the other evil; whereas the Lord is the Maker of good and evil, and therefore must be above all; and it is worthy of observation, that the Persian Magi, before Zoroastres F13, held two first causes, the one light, or the good god, the author of all good; and the other darkness, or the evil god, the author of all evil; the one they called Oromazes, the other Arimanius; and, as Dr. Prideaux F14 observes,

 

 

That is a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.   I read that and I picture a person trying to sound smart without saying a thing.

 

 

A sign of having no defense is personal attacks, which is why it is against the ToS.  Either show the error you see, or be silent.  Do not attack people personally 

 

 

Unless the one that posted it is also the one that wrote it, which I do not think is the case, how can there be a personal attack? 

[Guest shiloh357]

Anyone know why clb's post on the Holy of Holies and the Temple was removed?  I thought there was some interesting points in there.  And some verses I wanted to check out.

 

 

Clb was posting that post in several threads, three that I know of and on these boards, that is  a no-no.  It should be located elswhere in one of the threads.

[Guest shiloh357]

Pure speculation, you have no way of knowingnfor sure what the original audience would have understood.

As written, we know exactly how the original audience would have understood those words.   It doesn't take any speculation at all. 

[LookingForAnswers]

 

Pure speculation, you have no way of knowingnfor sure what the original audience would have understood.

As written, we know exactly how the original audience would have understood those words.   It doesn't take any speculation at all. 

 

 

If you were not part of the original audience then speculation is all you have. 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Pure speculation, you have no way of knowingnfor sure what the original audience would have understood.

As written, we know exactly how the original audience would have understood those words.   It doesn't take any speculation at all. 

 

 

If you were not part of the original audience then speculation is all you have. 

 

Not reallly.   Anyone can look at the plaining reading of the text and see the meaning.  These were not theologians standing Mt. Sinai. They are former slaves.   Had God meant something else, He could have said it.  God said that He made the heavens and earth in six days, in both contexts, the only possible meaning that one can take from the text, is that God made the heavens and earth in six ordinary days.   There is no other way to understand the text without sacrificing intellectual credibility.

[a-seeker]

 

Interesting questions, they will require some thought and study.  One quick question on the top, will there be a possibility of sin in Heaven and on the New Earth?

No.

 

So, sin was possible in Genesis; and Genesis was "as good as it CAN POSSIBLY GET".  Do you view the possibility of sin as irrelevant to the value of "tov"?  i.e. a world in which sin is possible is no better nor worse than a world in which it isn't?

 

Again, as good as it gets: Adam and Eve were meant to subdue the world--meaning a world needed subduing.  But of course the world was "as good as it gets"; which means they were appointed to an impossible task--a world that always needed subduing was a perfect world.

 

Again, the world was as good as it gets (I sound like Voltaire); which means in heaven we will have serpents, or something, slithering by and whispering fallacious lies to us.

 

Again, the command to fill and populate was superfluous.  The world was "as good as it gets".  Why alter things?  I don't say, "this house is perfect; but I don't like that it's made of plaster".

 

Again, they were in charge of cultivating the land--but the land was already "as good as it gets"--so cultivation was impossible.  One might reply they had to "maintain the status of 'as good as it gets'".  But a house that needs repainting is worse than a house that needs none.

 

clb