The age ol' question about God - FW vs P

[Guest DRS81]

Free will vs Predestination

 

1.  Does scripture contradict itself by saying we have free will to salvation, yet does God choose who shall be saved. 2. If God chooses his people, and if man is spiritually corrupt because of sin, then WHY also write scriptures of repentance. 3. Are these scriptures of repentance speaking for ALL people or the one's he predestined. 4. Since Romans 1:20 already says God is in creation and they are without excuse then why does the Christian need to spread the gospel. 5. Couldn't Christians just avoid all that persecution by trusting in Romans 1:20 and predestination. 6. Why would a loving God predestine a few people to heaven and the rest to hell. 7. Isn't predestination the opposite of free will. 8. Is it safe to say we cannot know the mind of God and just lean on faith alone. 9. The christian asks "if predestination is truth then why me, why have I been chosen??" Blessings, David. Let us pray for discernment.

 

Matt 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."

 

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

vs

 

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

 

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

 

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

[Guest shiloh357]

Free will vs Predestination

 

1.  Does scripture contradict itself by saying we have free will to salvation, yet does God choose who shall be saved. 2. If God chooses his people, and if man is spiritually corrupt because of sin, then WHY also write scriptures of repentance. 3. Are these scriptures of repentance speaking for ALL people or the one's he predestined. 4. Since Romans 1:20 already says God is in creation and they are without excuse then why does the Christian need to spread the gospel. 5. Couldn't Christians just avoid all that persecution by trusting in Romans 1:20 and predestination. 6. Why would a loving God predestine a few people to heaven and the rest to hell. 7. Isn't predestination the opposite of free will. 8. Is it safe to say we cannot know the mind of God and just lean on faith alone. 9. The christian asks "if predestination is truth then why me, why have I been chosen??" Blessings, David. Let us pray for discernment.

 

Matt 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."

 

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

vs

 

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

 

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

 

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

The Bible doesn't say that God chooses who will or will not be saved.  

 

The biblcial doctrine of predestination pertains to what God has predestined believers to become AFTER they are saved; it doesn't say that God predestines some to be saved and others to be lost.

 

Romans 9 is not about salvation.   It focuses on the sovereignty of God in tersm of God's sovereign choice to use people for a particular purpose.  Paul, in Romans 9 is defending God's justness in causing a partial blindness to come upon the Jews so that Jesus would be rejected and the promise of salvation could be fulfilled.  Paul uses the example of Pharoah through whom God used to show His power.  

 

God did not create Pharoah simply to destroy him. God does not create people to send them to hell.  There are incompetent and sloppy theologians who take that heretical view of God.   But the notion that God creates some people to send to hell violates the biblical revelation of God's nature and character.

 

Predistination in the NT is always about service not salvation.  The Bible does not take the extremist position that every event is willed by God.  There are hyper sovereignty people who think that every action, good or bad, sinful or righteous, is willed by God, but that is an unbalanced and extreme view of God that the Bible doesn't support.  IT is not rooted in the Bible at all. 

 

The free will vs. sovereignty debate often gets very contentious because it asking the wrong question from the outset and this leads to confusion and endless debate.   The question is usually about whether or not God gives us the freewill to choose to believe the Gospel.  But that is the wrong question.   The correct question is, "what is the relationship of my choices in life, good or bad, to the sovereign will of God over my and direction it is headed?

[Guest DRS81]

The biblcial doctrine of predestination pertains to what God has predestined believers to become AFTER they are saved; it doesn't say that God predestines some to be saved and others to be lost.

 

I like what you're saying here. It's still pretty radical to me, so I'm hoping it'll sink in. Are you saying that whenever they mention the words predestined, elect or chosen, they are talking about how the born again christian is predestined to conform into the image of Christ, as in there is nothing that can stop this transformation? Even willful sin??..thus Romans 8:39? If so this is great news for the believer. Are you also saying that nonbelievers can still surprise God when coming to faith, disregarding his omniscience? Or am I taking the word omniscience out of context? I guess your post makes sense, as much sense as fellow christians praying for their family members to be saved. I've also been into dvd (Amazing Grace: The History & Theology of Calvinism by Eric Holmberg.. Shalom. - DRS81

 

[Guest shiloh357]

Are you saying that whenever they mention the words predestined, elect or chosen, they are talking about how the born again christian is predestined to conform into the image of Christ, as in there is nothing that can stop this transformation? Even willful sin??..thus Romans 8:39? If so this is great news for the believer.

 

Yes and you are right. It is good news for the believer.

 

The Bible says we are predestined:

1.  To be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom. 8:29)

2.  For adoption  (Eph. 1:5)

3. To be to the praise of His glory (Eph. 1:11-12)

 

People see the words, "elect" and "chosen"  and they take them to mean that believers are selected out of the world, prior to salvation, to be saved.   But that is not how the Bible is using either of those terms.    God calls us His elect.  That is our title when we get saved.   We are not the elect prior to salvation. 

 

We are the elect because we are saved.  Let me draw an analogy.   Jesus is called the "Firstborn of all creation."   Jesus was not "born."  He always existed.  "Firstborn" is a title, not a reference to having been born.  It refers to status in relation to the created order.   It is the same way with the term "elect."   The minute you say "yes" to Jesus, you become "chosen" or "elect."   That is the title you wear as a child of God.

 

I am predstined as the elect of God.  I was not predestined to become the elect of God.   God didn't make salvation accessible to a "chosen few."   One reason I know this is that salvation is pre-figured all over the Old Testament.   There is NO foreshadowing, no types or shadows nothing in the Old Testament prophecies about salvation that indicates that salvation is limited to select group of people.

 

It is important to understand that the five points of Calvinism are a theological teaching, not a biblical teaching. They cannot be found in the Bible.  Calviinism is named after the man, John Calvin who first taught it.  The teaching of predestination promoted by Calvinism is not the doctrine of predestination that occurs in the New Testament.

 

 

 

Are you also saying that nonbelievers can still surprise God when coming to faith, disregarding his omniscience?

 

No.

 

Or am I taking the word omniscience out of context?

 

Omniscience means that God knows all things, past, present, and future.   So there is nothing that takes God by surprise.

[Guest DRS81]

People see the words, "elect" and "chosen"  and they take them to mean that believers are selected out of the world, prior to salvation, to be saved.   But that is not how the Bible is using either of those terms.    God calls us His elect.  That is our title when we get saved.   We are not the elect prior to salvation.

 

So it's safe to say not to combine God's omniscience to the words predestine/elect/chosen? Two different topics, two different stories? Now that we have OP cleared up, I have a question. Doesn't God's omniscience in fact (does) select people out of this world prior, or am I again using omniscience out of context. TY for bringing revelation to thread. Blessings.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

People see the words, "elect" and "chosen"  and they take them to mean that believers are selected out of the world, prior to salvation, to be saved.   But that is not how the Bible is using either of those terms.    God calls us His elect.  That is our title when we get saved.   We are not the elect prior to salvation.

 

So it's safe to say not to combine God's omniscience to the words predestine/elect/chosen? Two different topics, two different stories? Now that we have OP cleared up, I have a question. Doesn't God's omniscience in fact (does) select people out of this world prior, or am I again using omniscience out of context. TY for bringing revelation to thread. Blessings.

 

God's foreknowledge of who will be saved does not amount to God choosing who will be saved. God being omnscient, knows who will or will not be saved, but knowing the future and shaping the future are two different things.

[Guest DRS81]

God being omnscient, knows who will or will not be saved, but knowing the future and shaping the future are two different things.

 

what do u mean, knowing and shaping.

 

 

if God knows who will be saved, then why pray, preach and spread gospel, as example.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

God being omnscient, knows who will or will not be saved, but knowing the future and shaping the future are two different things.

 

what do u mean, knowing and shaping.

 

 

 

 

There is a difference between knowing what will happen and making it happen.  You can know the future, but that is different than making things happen a certain way.

 

if God knows who will be saved, then why pray, preach and spread gospel, as example.

 

Because God tells us to.   It is precisely because of the fact that  God knows the future that we should trust Him and obey Him to pray  and preach.

[Guest DRS81]

There is a difference between knowing what will happen and making it happen.  You can know the future, but that is different than making things happen a certain way.

 

How is it different. If you know the future, aren't you already shaping it before it happens, thus God's omnipotence? If you know the future then you already know what's gonna happen.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

There is a difference between knowing what will happen and making it happen.  You can know the future, but that is different than making things happen a certain way.

 

How is it different. If you know the future, aren't you already shaping it before it happens, thus God's omnipotence? If you know the future then you already know what's gonna happen.

 

 

Just for fun, let's say I know the outcome of this year's superbowl.    I am not out there on the field making the plays happen a certain way to force the outcome to favor the team I know will win.  I simply know the outcome and can sit back and amaze my friends with my supernatural foresight.

 

I am not shaping the outcome, am I?    

 

God knew how Pharoah would react to the plagues.   But God didn't force Pharoah to respond as he did. 

 

Would God be a just God if he caused you to sin and then judged you for sinning??    What happen is that people will get the idea that God makes things happen a certain way right down to every choice we make and the Bible doesn't present God's sovereignty or omnipotence that way.   It makes God responsible for sin and that is simply untenable and frankly, heretical.