A little freaked out

[enoob57]

Again, if I must make Christ Lord of my life in order to be saved, then I'm in a Catch 22: I must make Christ Lord to be saved, but I must be saved in order to make Christ Lord. And how is it possible for anyone to make Christ Lord since He already is Lord regardless of what anyone believes to the contrary?

No, there is no catch 22.  You simply don't understand.   Accepting Jesus as Lord is not a separate act from accepting Him as Savior.   It's a package deal.  Jesus offers Himself as both Savior and Lord.  You accept Him as both at the same time when you come to the Lord for salvation.

 

Really, you are making this harder than it has to be.

I'm the one making salvation more difficult? If salvation is already "package deal" than Lordship Salvation is an unnecessary addition.

And please note my new avatar.

"Lordship salvation" is not an addiiton and it never was.  It was a manner of expression.   The point behind it being that salvation is that salvation is a person.  Jesus is salvation.  His real Hebrew Name, Yeshua means "salvation."    Jesus, when we get saved expects to be both Savior and Lord.   Lordship salvation is salvation.  It amounts to accepting Jesus on His terms, and not our own.   He offers Himself as Savior and Lord and we will accept Him on those terms or not at all. 

 

If Jesus isn't your Lord, He isn't your Savior either.   You can't accept Him only half way.

Luke 6:46-49

46 "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?

47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you

whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid

the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently

against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.

49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth

without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately

it fell. And the ruin of that house was great."

NKJV

Those who do not realize adding their own effort to salvation is to defile the depth of

God in the garden! The Perfect Lord asking His Perfect Father for another way was sent

to the cross! Now if that was the only way and we add our own effort to assure that

perfection we are as satan who has always tried to usurp the authority of God...

Titus 3:5-7

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy

he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being

justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

KJV

Old school your right these lies have been since shortly after the beginning on works salvation!

Gen 3:1-4

3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God

had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of

every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of

the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in

the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye

touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

KJV

Love, Steven

[nebula]

I don't know, but I do know that I can be saved without Lordship Salvation; in fact, Jesus has been saving us without it for nearly 2,000 years.

 

Old School - do you believe Jesus died just for us to get into Heaven, not to save us from Sin, and as if God doesn't care about us doing things that hurt others, hurt ourselves, and poke Him in the eye?

 

 

Can one be a recipient of God's grace without first reconciling to God? ...

Jesus is the only mediator capable of reconciling God and man.

 

1. How does this answer the question?

 

2. Are you of the belief that you don't have to even admit to being a sinner in order to be saved?

 

3. Do you beleive salvation is a "get out of Hell" free card, and that's it?

[Qnts2]

 

Again, if I must make Christ Lord of my life in order to be saved, then I'm in a Catch 22: I must make Christ Lord to be saved, but I must be saved in order to make Christ Lord. And how is it possible for anyone to make Christ Lord since He already is Lord regardless of what anyone believes to the contrary?

 

No, there is no catch 22.  You simply don't understand.   Accepting Jesus as Lord is not a separate act from accepting Him as Savior.   It's a package deal.  Jesus offers Himself as both Savior and Lord.  You accept Him as both at the same time when you come to the Lord for salvation.

 

Really, you are making this harder than it has to be.

 

 

With the understanding that Lordship Salvation is typically a Calvinist concept, there are really differing issues.

 

What is meant by Lord? Must a person believe Jesus is God at the point of salvation?

 

I also notice you are missing that Jesus is the Messiah, and all of the OT prophesies pointing to Jesus are called Messianic prophesy, so why not require that Jesus be recognized as the promised Messiah, which is scriptural.

 

Lordship salvation is a measure of whether a person is saved. But Lordship from the non-Calvinist view is tied to sanctification, which is a continuing process which starts after the moment of salvation, when a person is taught by the Holy Spirit, going thru trials, making each part of the lives under Lordship rather then their own power.

 

I side with Lordship being a continuing process of sanctification. A person changes if they are truly born again, but the visible change is gradual and varying. That gradual change is also representative of the continuing and increasing submission to the Lord

[OldSchool2]

 

 

 

Again, if I must make Christ Lord of my life in order to be saved, then I'm in a Catch 22: I must make Christ Lord to be saved, but I must be saved in order to make Christ Lord. And how is it possible for anyone to make Christ Lord since He already is Lord regardless of what anyone believes to the contrary?

No, there is no catch 22.  You simply don't understand.   Accepting Jesus as Lord is not a separate act from accepting Him as Savior.   It's a package deal.  Jesus offers Himself as both Savior and Lord.  You accept Him as both at the same time when you come to the Lord for salvation.

 

Really, you are making this harder than it has to be.

 

I'm the one making salvation more difficult? If salvation is already "package deal" than Lordship Salvation is an unnecessary addition.

And please note my new avatar.

 

"Lordship salvation" is not an addiiton and it never was.  It was a manner of expression.   The point behind it being that salvation is that salvation is a person.  Jesus is salvation.  His real Hebrew Name, Yeshua means "salvation."    Jesus, when we get saved expects to be both Savior and Lord.   Lordship salvation is salvation.  It amounts to accepting Jesus on His terms, and not our own ...

 

Lordship Salvation seems to come with its own terms.

[OldSchool2]

I don't know, but I do know that I can be saved without Lordship Salvation; in fact, Jesus has been saving us without it for nearly 2,000 years.

 

Old School - do you believe Jesus died just for us to get into Heaven, not to save us from Sin, and as if God doesn't care about us doing things that hurt others, hurt ourselves, and poke Him in the eye?

 

 

Can one be a recipient of God's grace without first reconciling to God? ...

Jesus is the only mediator capable of reconciling God and man.

 

1. How does this answer the question?

 

2. Are you of the belief that you don't have to even admit to being a sinner in order to be saved?

 

3. Do you beleive salvation is a "get out of Hell" free card, and that's it?

1. In English, any interrogative can be answered with a declarative sentence that conveys information, or makes a statement.

2. Lordship Salvation believes you have to be saved in order to admit you're a sinner.

3. I believe that salvation is an act and sanctification a process and that Lordship Salvation blurs this distinction.

[nebula]

 

 

 

 

I don't know, but I do know that I can be saved without Lordship Salvation; in fact, Jesus has been saving us without it for nearly 2,000 years.

 

Old School - do you believe Jesus died just for us to get into Heaven, not to save us from Sin, and as if God doesn't care about us doing things that hurt others, hurt ourselves, and poke Him in the eye?

 

 

Can one be a recipient of God's grace without first reconciling to God? ...

 

Jesus is the only mediator capable of reconciling God and man.

 

 

1. How does this answer the question?

 

2. Are you of the belief that you don't have to even admit to being a sinner in order to be saved?

 

3. Do you beleive salvation is a "get out of Hell" free card, and that's it?

 

1. In English, any interrogative can be answered with a declarative sentence that conveys information, or makes a statement.

2. Lordship Salvation believes you have to be saved in order to admit you're a sinner.

3. I believe that salvation is an act and sanctification a process and that Lordship Salvation blurs this distinction.

 

 

 

Is dodging straight answer questions with answers that are completely unrelated to the actual questions a strategy for winning a debate by confusing your opponent such that they have no idea what your actual position is?

 

 

Seriously, Old School, I am trying to make sense of what you believe salvation to be and how it is obtained.

 

I did not ask you about Lordship salvation, but where you stand.

[*Zion*]

 

 

 

 

Do you see the difference between salvation and sanctification?

To require anyone seeking salvation to already be a committed, obedient and persevering disciple of Jesus is to confuse the act of salvation with sanctification, a process that takes a lifetime, and then some.

And if you "google" Lordship Salvation and COP you can see for yourself what this doctrine actually advocates.

Old School, if a woman marries a man but does not covenant to make this man "her lawfully wedded husband", what kind of marriage is it? If the woman wants the man's benefits but does not want to give the man her benefits as his wife, is she truly marrying him?

Whether the others are agreeing or disagreeing with the Google resources, I cannot say. But what I am reading from the others are not what you are saying.

A huge problem we have with Christianity today is people wanting Christianity for the benefits but still be their own god.

 

Yes, sanctification is a process, but with salvation what do you believe Jesus is saving us from?

 

From having been saved by grace through faith, only to be condemned into trying to keep it though my own commitment, obedience and perseverance.

 

 

Matthew 24:13

But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

But Jesus, in context was talking about being 'saved' or preserved in the midst of the tribulation years.  it is not about enduring to the end in order to be saved from sin.

 

 

Yes, but whatever the case, as long as we don't give up our faith in Him we shall be saved.  We put our lives in the Potter's hands.  He is Lord, that we must know and trust, whatever point in time we find ourselves in.

[OldSchool2]

I don't know, but I do know that I can be saved without Lordship Salvation; in fact, Jesus has been saving us without it for nearly 2,000 years.

 

Old School - do you believe Jesus died just for us to get into Heaven, not to save us from Sin, and as if God doesn't care about us doing things that hurt others, hurt ourselves, and poke Him in the eye?

 

 

Can one be a recipient of God's grace without first reconciling to God? ...

Jesus is the only mediator capable of reconciling God and man.

 

1. How does this answer the question?

 

2. Are you of the belief that you don't have to even admit to being a sinner in order to be saved?

 

3. Do you beleive salvation is a "get out of Hell" free card, and that's it?

1. In English, any interrogative can be answered with a declarative sentence that conveys information, or makes a statement.

2. Lordship Salvation believes you have to be saved in order to admit you're a sinner.

3. I believe that salvation is an act and sanctification a process and that Lordship Salvation blurs this distinction.

 

 

Is dodging straight answer questions with answers that are completely unrelated to the actual questions a strategy for winning a debate by confusing your opponent such that they have no idea what your actual position is?

 

 

Seriously, Old School, I am trying to make sense of what you believe salvation to be and how it is obtained.

 

I did not ask you about Lordship salvation, but where you stand.

I have repeatedly told you and others where I stood on so-called Lordship Salvation, which is what this thread has supposedly been about since post #1.

This thread is not about me, or my beliefs.

I am not on trial here -- Lordship Salvation is.

Seriously.

[nebula]

I have repeatedly told you and others where I stood on so-called Lordship Salvation, which is what this thread has supposedly been about since post #1.

This thread is not about me, or my beliefs.

I am not on trial here -- Lordship Salvation is.

Seriously.

 

But we're also talking about what salvation is and is not.

 

I fail to understand why you are so resistant to being clear on what you understand salvation is that contrasts "Lordship salvation."

 

Really, it is not enough to refute what you believe is not truth, you need to point people to what you believe truth is, not what it is not.

[OldSchool2]

I have repeatedly told you and others where I stood on so-called Lordship Salvation, which is what this thread has supposedly been about since post #1.

This thread is not about me, or my beliefs.

I am not on trial here -- Lordship Salvation is.

Seriously.

 

But we're also talking about what salvation is and is not ...

... salvation is not "faith plus," at least not according to the Apostle Paul who has already refuted what he believed wasn't true in his letter to the Galatians.

Having begun in the Spirit, are we now perfected in the flesh? The truth is that for orthodox Christians, this is a rhetorical question!

What could possibly be unclear about that?