Who do these dreams and visions come from?

[EnochBethany]

 

1 Thes 4:17 "harpagesometha = rapiemur = we shall be raptured (caught up).

The Rapture is the catch-up of 1 Thes 4:17, a Bible fact.

 

Thou sayest:

"I believe that the saint would be caught up at Jesus second coming and not before

Those that teach the rapture teach that the saints would be taken away secretly the bible does not say that"

 

OK, That is a horse of a different color!

While the rapture is an indisputable Bible fact,

Chrs disagree on its timing, relation to the Trib, id or non-id w/ 2nd coming to earth. See BibleAndTheology.com for a defense of pre-Trib -- & much ink is spilled debating it on the internet.

 

The "secretly" issue, IMHO, is irrelevant.  One might rate it on a scale of 0-10 as to how visible or invisible it is.  I don't know scripture to prove the degree of visibility. 

 

1 Thes 4 end = Rapture

2 Thes 5 start = Day of Lord / Trib.

 

Pre-Trib is for me the best way I know to reconcile all the scripture, the imminence (no signs needed) of the Rapture (Jas 5), the literalness of Dan's 70th week (like the literalness of the first 69 weeks).

 

In 2 Thes 2 the apostasia has to precede the Day of the Lord (a time of judgment/trouble in the Bible).  Apostasia means "departure."  Probably most readers, using translations that do not say "departure," take it to mean a religious departure, apostasy, in English.  However, based on the Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon, the big grand daddy comprehensive lexicon of ancient Greek, & the usage in the Dormition of Mary, apostasia can mean a literal departure, as in the Rapture.

 

It doesn't bother me that other Chrs don't see it the way I do; it does bother me if someone posts, "The Rapture is a lie," or you are a heretic for disagreeing on a detail of eschatology. 

 

It put it to you that however you may put it all together, the important thing is to expect the Return of Christ at any time -- the judge is at the doors!  But don't go setting dates or fanaticizing over the latest newspaper headline:  "Earthquake hits Alaska!"

 

Why bumgolly, we are in Mat 24's signs!  rubbish.

The Lord will descend from heaven with a shout   The apostle Paul wrote about the Return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”  (1 Thess. 4:16-18)  There is nothing in these verses that says the Lord’s Second Coming will be a quiet and secret one.  After the Second Coming the saints will be with Jesus Christ forever.

 

May I ask who are these saints coming with the Lord ?

 

Jude 1:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

 

 

 

1 Thes 4:17 "harpagesometha = rapiemur = we shall be raptured (caught up).

The Rapture is the catch-up of 1 Thes 4:17, a Bible fact.

 

Thou sayest:

"I believe that the saint would be caught up at Jesus second coming and not before

Those that teach the rapture teach that the saints would be taken away secretly the bible does not say that"

 

OK, That is a horse of a different color!

While the rapture is an indisputable Bible fact,

Chrs disagree on its timing, relation to the Trib, id or non-id w/ 2nd coming to earth. See BibleAndTheology.com for a defense of pre-Trib -- & much ink is spilled debating it on the internet.

 

The "secretly" issue, IMHO, is irrelevant.  One might rate it on a scale of 0-10 as to how visible or invisible it is.  I don't know scripture to prove the degree of visibility. 

 

1 Thes 4 end = Rapture

2 Thes 5 start = Day of Lord / Trib.

 

Pre-Trib is for me the best way I know to reconcile all the scripture, the imminence (no signs needed) of the Rapture (Jas 5), the literalness of Dan's 70th week (like the literalness of the first 69 weeks).

 

In 2 Thes 2 the apostasia has to precede the Day of the Lord (a time of judgment/trouble in the Bible).  Apostasia means "departure."  Probably most readers, using translations that do not say "departure," take it to mean a religious departure, apostasy, in English.  However, based on the Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon, the big grand daddy comprehensive lexicon of ancient Greek, & the usage in the Dormition of Mary, apostasia can mean a literal departure, as in the Rapture.

 

It doesn't bother me that other Chrs don't see it the way I do; it does bother me if someone posts, "The Rapture is a lie," or you are a heretic for disagreeing on a detail of eschatology. 

 

It put it to you that however you may put it all together, the important thing is to expect the Return of Christ at any time -- the judge is at the doors!  But don't go setting dates or fanaticizing over the latest newspaper headline:  "Earthquake hits Alaska!"

 

Why bumgolly, we are in Mat 24's signs!  rubbish.

The Lord will descend from heaven with a shout   The apostle Paul wrote about the Return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”  (1 Thess. 4:16-18)  There is nothing in these verses that says the Lord’s Second Coming will be a quiet and secret one.  After the Second Coming the saints will be with Jesus Christ forever.

 

May I ask who are these saints coming with the Lord ?

 

Jude 1:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

OK, good evening; I hope you are taking it izzel.

 

Izzel asketh who are the 10,000's of Jude.  Well, Izzel, you brought up the topic, & you must think you know.  So let me invite you to expand on your scripture.  And please tell us how you know what the interp is.

[EnochBethany]

 

 

1 Thes 4:17 "harpagesometha = rapiemur = we shall be raptured (caught up).

The Rapture is the catch-up of 1 Thes 4:17, a Bible fact.

 

Thou sayest:

"I believe that the saint would be caught up at Jesus second coming and not before

Those that teach the rapture teach that the saints would be taken away secretly the bible does not say that"

 

OK, That is a horse of a different color!

While the rapture is an indisputable Bible fact,

Chrs disagree on its timing, relation to the Trib, id or non-id w/ 2nd coming to earth. See BibleAndTheology.com for a defense of pre-Trib -- & much ink is spilled debating it on the internet.

 

The "secretly" issue, IMHO, is irrelevant.  One might rate it on a scale of 0-10 as to how visible or invisible it is.  I don't know scripture to prove the degree of visibility. 

 

1 Thes 4 end = Rapture

2 Thes 5 start = Day of Lord / Trib.

 

Pre-Trib is for me the best way I know to reconcile all the scripture, the imminence (no signs needed) of the Rapture (Jas 5), the literalness of Dan's 70th week (like the literalness of the first 69 weeks).

 

In 2 Thes 2 the apostasia has to precede the Day of the Lord (a time of judgment/trouble in the Bible).  Apostasia means "departure."  Probably most readers, using translations that do not say "departure," take it to mean a religious departure, apostasy, in English.  However, based on the Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon, the big grand daddy comprehensive lexicon of ancient Greek, & the usage in the Dormition of Mary, apostasia can mean a literal departure, as in the Rapture.

 

It doesn't bother me that other Chrs don't see it the way I do; it does bother me if someone posts, "The Rapture is a lie," or you are a heretic for disagreeing on a detail of eschatology. 

 

It put it to you that however you may put it all together, the important thing is to expect the Return of Christ at any time -- the judge is at the doors!  But don't go setting dates or fanaticizing over the latest newspaper headline:  "Earthquake hits Alaska!"

 

Why bumgolly, we are in Mat 24's signs!  rubbish.

The Lord will descend from heaven with a shout   The apostle Paul wrote about the Return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”  (1 Thess. 4:16-18)  There is nothing in these verses that says the Lord’s Second Coming will be a quiet and secret one.  After the Second Coming the saints will be with Jesus Christ forever.

 

May I ask who are these saints coming with the Lord ?

 

Jude 1:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

They are all the believers that have died in the past 2000 years or so

 

Izzel saith that the 10,000's of Jude are "all the believers that have died in the past 2000 years or so."

 

That is an interesting theory.  Now how do you know that no OT saints will be with them?  How do you know that this includes persons before Pentecost?  (or do they?) 

 

If you are saying that the 10,000's are the Church members who died since Pentecost, I fail to see how your interp favors a post-trib rapture.  In standard Pre-trib theory, Rev 19 has the Lord Jesus returning to earth with the Church-glorified, to take over planet earth. 

[EnochBethany]

 

 

Izzel you say you know 100% its not from God yet how can you prove this and more over how are you so sure? because it sounds much more of your own opinion and logic than a fact none of the scripture you posted proved squat and wasnt even relavant to the dream itself and then you say the rapture is a lie even though Jesus even clearly spoke of it? do you recal this teaching?  mathew 24:39-41 two men will be in the field one will be taken and the other left. two woman will be grinding with a hand mill one will be taken the other left.

do you know why one was taken and the other left? ones heart was right with god the other wasnt. that scripture alone proves the rapture but jesus coninues on with it but you need to read it for yourself

Taken in judgment.  Those who are left enter the Millennial Kingdom.  In the Olivet Discourse & in Mat 24, there is no Church & no Rapture.

 

Zechariah 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, theLord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth untoJerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

 

Hello Izzel.

 

Now Izzel, note that you quoted:

 

"left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall … go up from year to year to worship the King,"

 

The others were taken in judgment.  The ones left are the good boys who enter the kingdom.

 

Now take it Izzel.

[EnochBethany]

How I gonna take it Izzel with him posting such stuff as this on Jude's 10,000s?:

 

"They are all the believers that have died in the past 2000 years or so
This is where everyone is so intune with the rapture they cannot see that the saints Jesus come with is not the church but holy angels"

 

Dear Izzel:  please clarify.  First you seem to say that they beez believers who died; Then you seem to say they beez angels!!!  I know angels are believers, but I never heard of them dying.

 

Now do you have proof that the saints that come with the Lord Jesus are exclusively angels?  And can you prove from the Bible that angels hold the descriptive name of "saints."  Where does the Bible call angels "saints"?

[Izzel]

How I gonna take it Izzel with him posting such stuff as this on Jude's 10,000s?:

 

"They are all the believers that have died in the past 2000 years or so

This is where everyone is so intune with the rapture they cannot see that the saints Jesus come with is not the church but holy angels"

 

Dear Izzel:  please clarify.  First you seem to say that they beez believers who died; Then you seem to say they beez angels!!!  I know angels are believers, but I never heard of them dying.

 

Now do you have proof that the saints that come with the Lord Jesus are exclusively angels?  And can you prove from the Bible that angels hold the descriptive name of "saints."  Where does the Bible call angels "saints"?

The Lord coming with His saints are at His second coming and these saints  are angels 

 

Many take this verse and say it is believers that have that died or that have been raptured 

 

The bible does not teach that 

 

Saints here are angels , why I say so 

 

Deuteronomy 33

King James Version (KJV)

33 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.

2 And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints ( human ) are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

 

Jesus comes with the Holy angels or saints and for the saints or saved man 

[EnochBethany]

Izzel repeats:  "The Lord comeing with His saints are at His second coming and these saints are angels"

"Saints here are angels why I say so
Deuteronomy 33King James Version (KJV)33 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death."

"2 And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
Jesus comes with the Holy angels or saints and for the saints or saved man"

 

Well, Izzel, thanks for pointing out these verses; I had never pondered then before.

 

Now note 1) first that "angels" does not occur in the passage.

2) Actually the word "saints" does not occur either.  The word you are translating "saints" is a singular word in Hebrew, qodesh, which means "holy."  So lets give a literal translation

"came with 10,000 of (the) holy."  To be sure, to make smooth English one may render this 10,000s of holy ones.  The angels are holy indeed. 

 

ואתה מרבבת קדש

 

Jude says:   ἦλθεν κύριος ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ

ἦλθεν κύριος = came (the Lord)

ἐν = in / with

ἁγίαις = saints / holy ones

μυριάσιν = 10,000

αὐτοῦ  = his

 

So since saints & holy ones are both good translations, IMHO this could be angels or holy humans as based on the word used.  Thanks for raising the issue of how to interpret these similar passages (& others).  

 

I don't see how you could limit it to angels exclusively.  Of course since the Lord is holy, one expects associates who come with Him to also be holy..To interpret this requires figuring out what time is meant and correlating all relevant scripture together.  And for me that would take some effort.  It is not immediately apparent to me that the coming in Jude must refer to Rev 19.  But whatever it refers to, all I can see is that the Lord comes with Holy Beings (unspecified as to angels, the Church, OT saints, or whomever) here.

 

It should be noted that Jude uses the past tense, came.  However, it might be a prophetic past which actually refers to the future. Perhaps Enoch saw something in a vision & then reports it as "the Lord came."

 

At any rate, thanks for calling attention to the passage.

You have not proven that these are angels or exclusively angels.

[Diatheosis]

About dreams and visions.

 

I believe if God loves us so much as to sacrifice His Son that sharing some glimpses into His eternal plan does not sound too far fetched.

 

It is just to ask no matter what you come to witness in spirit if it is due to Jesus being God's Christ who was resurrected from the dead. The demonic hates so much to confess the truth about that. They just boil inside when faced with that. For the Truth is sharper than any two edged sword.

 

What really helps is to be genuine and patient at heart, which reduces the chance of suggestive mind to start to produce alternative spiritual reality, wide open for the demonic to play along.

[Izzel]

Izzel posteth:

 

"Thess. 4:16-18) There is nothing in these verses that says the Lord’s Second Coming will be a quiet and secret one. After the Second Coming the saints will be with Jesus Christ forever.

MNow Izzel, you gots to find someone claiming a quiet & secret rapture before you badmouth the theory or try to straw man argue it. The Pre-trib theory is not about a quiet & secret rapture.  Whether it be secret or open or half-hid is not the issue.  The issue is when does it happen?  Could it happen today?

 

Kindly stop going on about secret rapture until you find someone saying it.

 

BTW, if 1 Thes doesn't say secret, that proves nothing at all. It doesn't say either secret or open to the public -- not that it matters to me for Pre-Trib theory.

 

Izzel politely asketh:

 

May I ask who are these saints coming with the Lord ?

 

Why yes you may.

 

The Izzel quoteth Jude:

Jude 1:14King James Version (KJV)14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

They are all the believers that have died in the past 2000 years or so

This is where everyone is so intune with the rapture they cannot see that the saints Jesus come with is not the church but holy angels

 

Now how do you know that, Izzel?  How do you know that this is not the Church returning with Christ 7 years after the Rapture?

 

Now, O Izzel, read the start of John 14.  When Christ comes there, the Church is on the earth.  Now where does He take the Church?  Could it be to the Father's House in Heaven?  If so, does that make sense at the end of the Trib?  If Christ is going to stay at the earth & rule, how does that fit with taking the Church to Heaven so they can be with Him?

 

Honestly, what you posted is not one shred of evidence vs the Pre-trib rapture.

 

Now get this:  In Mat 24 there is no Church & is no Rapture; No saints are said to go to a meeting in the air with the Lord Jesus in Mat 24.

Who are the elect in matt 24 ?

 

Jesus rules on the earth from Zion with His saint or the church  for a 1000 years when they are  are taken  

 

The saint only get into the mansion after the 1000 years after 

 

This 7 years theory after the rapture is man made the bible does not teach that 

[walkonwater]

 

 

Are visions and dream different or similar ?

A vision from the Lord is when you are awake, a dream from the Lord is when you are sleeping, it feels not as your other dreams, it feels real as if you are really there, vividly, not dream like. These days are "still" the last days until Jesus does come for us.  And the Spirit of the Lord is being poured out among all flesh, there is no end to this, till Jesus appears for us.  The one dream I had from the Lord that really sticks out in my mind is, I saw my pastor on a platform with other pastors behind him, i walked up to him and opened his hand, and put the tiniest seashell i have ever seen, in his hand and closed his fingers upon it, a small giggle came from my lips as i walked away still looking at him, when I awoke I asked the Lord what that dream meant and He revealed to me that the seashell represented hardness and the size meant the amount, and that was all of my hard self that i gave up, it really saddened me because the shell was so minuscule.  The Lord is reshaping me, I am a work of His in progress, and the places where I need to be in Him, He is bringing me there in Him, what I can't do, He can, in His wonderful love, which is for everyone of us.  Yes, I have been given heavenly dreams and visions, because that is where my God is, things of Him are heavenly, not earthly, I also know earth does not accept things of heaven. I've been there myself, now I am walking in His direction not away, all because He is bringing me there in Him.

 

 

 

How do you understand this verses thanks 

 

Job 33:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.

15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

 

How are the instructions sealed ?

 

I really like how you are so inquisitve, I am like this myself, also I believe by Gods Spirit, the Holy Spirit, that the things of God are revealed by Him alone, not man.  My dad taught me things when growing up, my Heavenly Father teaches me things as I seek Him and even when not seeking Him, is He not my Father? I try and be as patient in learning as my Father is in teaching.  Yes, I have learned through men that have Gods knowledge also, being enlightened with greater depth into Gods words, that too is really wonderful, we are all one in Christ, not separate.  Before I received the Holy Spirit to live within me, my heavenly Father led me to ask for sin upon sin of mine to be forgiven, there were so many times I ran into my bedroom and got on my knees to be asked for forgiveness that I had lost count, but every time i left that room those sins were no longer mine but His, yeah I really felt Him taking every one of those burdens that were mine, and it was the greatest freedom I believe I ever felt, what a true and loving God to do exactly what He says that He will do, and then the Lord led me to pray to have my faith increased in Him,(St. Luke 17:5) as He did with His disciples and this was before I even Knew Jesus was my God also, I really didn't know my savior at that time, not as I know Him now.  Gods words are for us all, if they asked then so could I, and He increased my faith in Him. (St. Mark 9:24) I was also led to ask for my unbelief to be helped, I had not even realized I was an unbeliever, but if someone was right there with Jesus and seeing all the wonders and miracles and wanting one for his own child then how much more did I need to ask for this?  Then I was led through Gods words in (Luke 11:13) bottom half - how much more shall your(thats us) heavenly Father (our maker) give the "Holy Spirit" to them that ask Him?  When I saw these words for all of us to receive just by asking, I made no hesitation to ask, if He says it, then you can ask it. I am so thankful for Jesus saying this because after asking my heavenly Father for the Holy Spirit, I could "feel" Gods Spirit within me.  All just for the asking.  I know Gods Spirit was there already upon my life but after asking Him for His Holy Spirit,  He then dwelt within me, and it is a more fullness of Him.  That time in my life was the most wonderful time to me, I wasn't even aware of all the world around me even, just joying in the Lord each and every day.  There was a bigger picture to all this though because through asking for forgiveness, and faith being increased and unbelief helped and the receiving of the Holy Spirit, I received the most divine healing right in my own home, one I cannot fully share even because its so heavenly, but I do know it was by my Lord Jesus, He is our healer, the forgiver of all our sins and healer of all our diseases, because my inside does not come without my outside, I am a living soul, body and spirit within. Jesus sets fully free, He's not a partial God in anything.  And yes Jesus is the same today as then and always, He didn't just come and leave, He is our reigning God and King of all heaven and all earth right now and forever.