TWO comings TWO raptures

[Guest Jesse]

Why use the word rapture,instead resurrection?

 

If those who come out of the Trib are of the First Resurrection. Who are those who follow Satan at the end of the Mill?

 

The wicked dead are left in their graves for a 1000yrs.

The wicked living;  surviving armageddon will still live.

will multiply once more,but outside the kingdom(paradise) israel.(head city,jerusalem).

Satan in prison,for 1000yrs.

Satan then released,  will draw the non converted to one place to be destroyed; in the war of gog and magog.

 

jesse.

[Guest Jesse]

I agree other one, the New Jerusalem is not the church.

Marylinc.

 

So You say jerusalem is not the church.

You need to read these scriptures.           (jerusalem the lambs wife).

 

Revelation 21:9

***And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues***,

***and talked with me, saying, Come hither***,

                                                ***I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife***.

Revelation 21:10

***And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain***,

                                    ***and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem***,

***descending out of heaven from God***,

Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

jesse.

[iamlamad]

Jesse

 

Christ is the foundation of the Church/ His Body, He is the cornerstone which the Church stands on.  The New Jerusalem is not the Church.

Another thing about the 144,000.  These are not the Church, if so the Boat was full 2000 years ago, and then we have nothing.  These are special Jews, appointed and sealed to do their work during the Mill.  They are not sealed for what they might do during the 70th Week; But for what they will do during the 1000 years.  They follow the Lamb, and they sing a new song.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Sorry, Marv, but you missed it here for sure. The pretrib rapture will take God's people out of the world just before the 70th week. The two witnesses show up 3 1/2 days before the midpoint of the week. The 144,000  will fill in this gap during the first half of the week; then they are caught up to heaven. So IF they do the work of ministry (John does not really tell us what they will do) it will be during the first half of the 70th week. They follow the lamb as soon as they are caught up to heaven - for that is where He will be at the midpoint of the week.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

Jesse

 

Christ is the foundation of the Church/ His Body, He is the cornerstone which the Church stands on.  The New Jerusalem is not the Church.

Another thing about the 144,000.  These are not the Church, if so the Boat was full 2000 years ago, and then we have nothing.  These are special Jews, appointed and sealed to do their work during the Mill.  They are not sealed for what they might do during the 70th Week; But for what they will do during the 1000 years.  They follow the Lamb, and they sing a new song.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Montane.

 

I have never said, what you claim me of saying. 

You must have misunderstood.

 

The church is build on the twelve apostle of which Jesus is the cornerstone.Rev 21:14.

The 144000 is not the whole church,but part of it.

All TRUE christians is the church,and Jesus the head of the church.

The 144000 are the very elect of the church,they are the FIRST FRUITS.

The rest of the church must go through tribulation to make them white.

They must be purified,for they are not clean.

Our righteousnes are like dirty raggs before God.

Spiritual jerusalem is the bride of christ, which is the true church.rev21:9----

 

jesse.

 

Jesse, a city is not the people in the city, and the people in the city are not the physical city - they just inhabit the city.

Precious stones are the foundation of the city of New Jerusalem. NAMES are written on the foundations. For example, the disciple John is not holding up the city or providing any foundation for the city. However, John was one of the disciples that began the church. In truth, the church was and is built on REVELATION KNOWLEDGE - the very revelation knowlege Peter received when He said "thou are the Christ, the son of the living God." Jesus said, "upon THIS ROCK [the rock of Revealed knowledge] I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH. Then again Paul said the "foundation" is Jesus Christ. "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

 

The 144,000 is not any part of "the church" if you are speaking of the body of Christ on earth, The body of Christ today is made up mostly of Gentiles. The 144,000 will be the firstfruits of the JEWS and Hebrews and will be caught up to heavern as firstfruits at the midpoint of the 70th week. The Bride of Christ will be caught up before the 70th week. These are TWO SEPARATE groups.

 

The 144000 are the very elect of the church,they are the FIRST FRUITS.

 

This is simply nonsense. Did you spend time with Jehovah's Witnesses? Read it again: they come from 12 tribes of ISRAEL, while most of the bride came from Gentiles

 

The rest of the church must go through tribulation to make them white.

 

I think you are saying "the rest of the church" not including the  144,000?. Again total nonsense. This is not at all what the bible tells us. Indeed, you have something right; much of those today who call themselves "Christian" will be left behind. If the parable of the virgins means anything, God is showing us that perhaps only 50% of those who think they are "Christian" will be caught up at the pretrib rapture. I could make a long list of those not qualified. You should study Luke 21:36. It is there for a reason. One group who will not be qualified for the rapture will be those God finds "lukewarm."  There are others. In the parable of the virgins, those left behind were SHORT on the Holy Spirit.What does that mean? They were born again - all ten - for they all had oil (the Holy Spirit) in their lamps (the seal of the Holy Spirit in their human spirits). However, only half had EXTRA Holy Spirit in vessels. This is speaking of Acts 1 & 2 and the day of Pentecost where the 120 were FILLED with the Holy Spirit. This is the Holy Spirit in their "vessels" or the Holy Spirit UPON their bodies as the anointing. AT the time of the rapture, many believers will be found SHORT on the Holy Spirit.

 

They must be purified,for they are not clean.

 

It is written that without holiness, NO MAN will se the Lord. Righteousness is God's gift to those who are born again. But living a holy life is a believer's gift to God. It is written that fornicators will not make it to heaven - yet this is a sin that runs rampant in the church today, just as it does in the world. (This is just one of many sins that will prevent beleivers from being qualified for the rapture.) Sin must be confessed before it will be forgiven. 1 John 1:9 is there for the church! However, so many in the church today think there is a difference between BIG sins (like murder) and a little sin (like fornication). Many beleivers are caught up in unforgiveness. They will not be found qualified for the rapture.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

Justfaith

 

Why then did those in Judea not flee to the mountains at Christs Death.  And what was the great distress to come.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

During the following one half of this last week, or three and a half years, they refused to hear the message. The Messiah also said just before He was cut off, speaking of the Jews: "They shall fall by the edge of the sword and be led away captive into all nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:24). 

 

During this three and a half years, they turned against their own race, put them in prison, and stoned them to death. Notice Acts 7:54 to 58, also chapter 8:1 to 3, and chapter 5:18 to 20 etc. The 70th week is already past 

 

Of course this is total and complese MYTH. Even in Paul's day there were some teaching that the Day of the Lord had come. They were wrong then, as Paul taught, and you are wrong today. of course, Paul also taught that the departing of the church must come FIRST, before the man of sin can enter the temple and declare he is GOD. Of course neither of these things have happened. The book of Revelation teaches us that the 70th week is FUTURE. The trumpet judgments are FUTURE events and will happen during the FIRST HALF of the week. NO trumpet judgment had come yet, for the 7th seal must be broken first. And before the 7th seal the church MUST BE raptured. John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN just before the 7th seal. Read Rev. 7. That group too large to number was around the throne in heaven. That was just after the rapture that caught them up.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

 

Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation.

There's a clear distinction between tribulation and God's wrath / judgment.  People tend to use those words interchangeably when it concerns end times prophecy and obfuscate their meanings by turning it into basically a "certain time of yucky".  Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.  At least that's been my experience.

 

1) Paul said,

 

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?

 

1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

As I see it, God's judgment / wrath is in the seven trumpets / vials of the seventh seal.  The first six seals are events that include the great tribulation,not judgments, not wrath.

 

2) Did Jesus not say that the great tribulation would be the last 3 ½ years of Daniel’s 70^th week? If that is true, then how could the “first six seals” be in the GT?

 

I think we can all agree that in the world we will have tribulation and at some point it will turn into a great tribulation, and that we are not appointed for wrath.  Substitute "tribulation" with "persecution" and I think its a better read since the meaning of "tribulation" has become convoluted.

 

3) Do you equate “tribulation/persecution” spoken of in the NT as being one and the same with that spoken of in Revelation?

Persecution is something believers should expect to encounter, not escape.

 

4) The Christians that I know would never suggest that we are not to suffer, tribulations/persecutions but we do believe the promises of God that those that will be alive in the last days will not suffer the wrath of God as outlined in Rev 6 – 18. For those that do not want to claim the promises that God has made, you have my prayers.

 

5) If I may ask a couple of questions….do you believe that God is a just and fair God?

 

6) If you do, I have the following question, there were Bible believing twins in the last days, one twin died in an accident and was buried, a few days later, the tribulations and wrath as outlined in Revelation began. The second twin had to endure seven years of pure hell on earth. Do you think a just and fair God would consider that as being fair?

 

The distinction needs to be made.

 

7) Do you believe there is a very distinct difference in tribulations/ persecutions and the great tribulation and the wrath of God as spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to Daniel’s 70th week?

 

8) Does v16,17 seem to suggest that God’s wrath actually began in chapter 6?

 

Revelation 6:16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

Revelation 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

9) I have asked Salty this question but he is not big on answering questions so perhaps you can, in your opinion, what is the reason for the tribulation period in the last days as spoken of in Revelation?

 

 

We must keep in mind that the two words used together, "great tribulation," was NOT ENOUGH to describe those days Jesus was speaking of.He had to add that there would never, ever be another such time, and there never has been in the past. Therefore, when we see these two words together, "great tribulation" it does not have to be "those days" that Jesus was speaking of.

 

There is tribulation. there has always been "tribulation." This word comes from a tool used to cut up the straw left after harvest. This tool was had sharp teeth and was weighted down and dragged by horses to chop up the straw. It put great pressure upon the straw. From this tool came the word "thlíbō" meaning great pressure. (Or perhaps the tool was named from this word). The Greek word thlípsis was translated into "Tribulation." Tribulation in its most accurate sense is PRESSURE. Consider the three Hebrew youths: they were told they must bow to an idol or be put into a fiery furnace.  Their conscience forbid them to bow to an idol or an image. They were under great pressure.

 

During the days of the "great tribulation" jesus spoke of, again there will be such great pressure: there will be another image with a MARK to go with it. People will be told, WORSHIP this image and take this mark, or lose your head. It will be just like Nebuchadnezzar revisited, only this time, it will be WORLDWIDE.

 

It was "great tribulation" for Jews in the days of Hitler. Millions died. It IS great tribulation today for those Christians living in IRAQ. They are being put to death because of what they believe. How could "tribulation" get any greater than to die? One cannot be killed twice. Yet, what we see today is NOT "those days" of "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of. He was speaking specifically of the days after the abominaiton, when the man of sin declares he is God and must be worshiped. Shortly after the abomination, when the false prophet shows up, the image will be erected and placed in the temple, and then the mark will be established. Then the killing will reach an extreme level. All believers left behind at the rapture (and of course those who turn to Christ after the rapture) will be hunted down like animals and beheaded if they refuse the mark. Thirst will be extreme - for the fresh water will turn to blood (part of God's wrath). Without the mark, no one can buy water. Drinking water will become more precious than gold. GREAT PRESSURE will be put upon people to just take the mark so they can drink. Thirst is a very powerful motivator.

 

Therefore, we have "tribulation" that has existed ever since Adam. 

 

There have been times of "great tribulation" such as the days of Hitler or when Jerusalem was surrounded in 70 AD.

 

There is "great tribulation" today, where thouands of believers are being killed because they serve Christ and not Mohammad. But this is NOT the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. John tells us that at the time of the rapture, those caught up will come out of "great tribulation." Yet, at that time John has not yet even started the 70th week, must less arrived at the midpoint and abomination that Jesus spoke of.

There will come days of "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of after the abomination. Make no mistake, there is great tribulation going on in the world today, in almost every Muslim nation. John was so right when He wrote that the antichrist spirit would be known by those who deny FATHER AND SON. We know today who denies Jesus as the SON.

 

The seals are not a part of the 70th week. John showed us in Revelation 4-5 that the first seals were broken as soon as Jesus ascended back into heaven. We are today between the 5th seal (for the martyrs of the church age) and the 6th seal which is the start of the DAy of the Lord and "the day of His wrath."

 

Make no mistake: God's wrath begins with the "sudden destruction" of Paul, which is the great earthquake at the 6th seal. This earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. Then after the 144,000 are sealed, Jesus will break the 7th seal, which is the offical start of the 70th week of Daniel. The trumpets will sound in the first half, and the vials will be poured out late in the second half. This is all clearly laid out in Revelation.

 

We are today waiting on the sound of a loud TRUMPET. WHO will be found worthy to be caught up? (Luke 21:36)

 

LAMAD

[tevans9129]

Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation.

There's a clear distinction between tribulation and God's wrath / judgment.  People tend to use those words interchangeably when it concerns end times prophecy and obfuscate their meanings by turning it into basically a "certain time of yucky".  Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.  At least that's been my experience.

 

1) Paul said,

 

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?

 

1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

As I see it, God's judgment / wrath is in the seven trumpets / vials of the seventh seal.  The first six seals are events that include the great tribulation,not judgments, not wrath.

 

2) Did Jesus not say that the great tribulation would be the last 3 ½ years of Daniel’s 70^th week? If that is true, then how could the “first six seals” be in the GT?

 

I think we can all agree that in the world we will have tribulation and at some point it will turn into a great tribulation, and that we are not appointed for wrath.  Substitute "tribulation" with "persecution" and I think its a better read since the meaning of "tribulation" has become convoluted.

 

3) Do you equate “tribulation/persecution” spoken of in the NT as being one and the same with that spoken of in Revelation?

Persecution is something believers should expect to encounter, not escape.

 

4) The Christians that I know would never suggest that we are not to suffer, tribulations/persecutions but we do believe the promises of God that those that will be alive in the last days will not suffer the wrath of God as outlined in Rev 6 – 18. For those that do not want to claim the promises that God has made, you have my prayers.

 

5) If I may ask a couple of questions….do you believe that God is a just and fair God?

 

6) If you do, I have the following question, there were Bible believing twins in the last days, one twin died in an accident and was buried, a few days later, the tribulations and wrath as outlined in Revelation began. The second twin had to endure seven years of pure hell on earth. Do you think a just and fair God would consider that as being fair?

 

The distinction needs to be made.

 

7) Do you believe there is a very distinct difference in tribulations/ persecutions and the great tribulation and the wrath of God as spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to Daniel’s 70th week?

 

8) Does v16,17 seem to suggest that God’s wrath actually began in chapter 6?

 

Revelation 6:16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

Revelation 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

9) I have asked Salty this question but he is not big on answering questions so perhaps you can, in your opinion, what is the reason for the tribulation period in the last days as spoken of in Revelation?

We must keep in mind that the two words used together, "great tribulation," was NOT ENOUGH to describe those days Jesus was speaking of.He had to add that there would never, ever be another such time, and there never has been in the past. Therefore, when we see these two words together, "great tribulation" it does not have to be "those days" that Jesus was speaking of.

 

There is tribulation. there has always been "tribulation." This word comes from a tool used to cut up the straw left after harvest. This tool was had sharp teeth and was weighted down and dragged by horses to chop up the straw. It put great pressure upon the straw. From this tool came the word "thlíbō" meaning great pressure. (Or perhaps the tool was named from this word). The Greek word thlípsis was translated into "Tribulation." Tribulation in its most accurate sense is PRESSURE. Consider the three Hebrew youths: they were told they must bow to an idol or be put into a fiery furnace.  Their conscience forbid them to bow to an idol or an image. They were under great pressure.

 

During the days of the "great tribulation" jesus spoke of, again there will be such great pressure: there will be another image with a MARK to go with it. People will be told, WORSHIP this image and take this mark, or lose your head. It will be just like Nebuchadnezzar revisited, only this time, it will be WORLDWIDE.

 

It was "great tribulation" for Jews in the days of Hitler. Millions died. It IS great tribulation today for those Christians living in IRAQ. They are being put to death because of what they believe. How could "tribulation" get any greater than to die? One cannot be killed twice. Yet, what we see today is NOT "those days" of "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of. He was speaking specifically of the days after the abominaiton, when the man of sin declares he is God and must be worshiped. Shortly after the abomination, when the false prophet shows up, the image will be erected and placed in the temple, and then the mark will be established. Then the killing will reach an extreme level. All believers left behind at the rapture (and of course those who turn to Christ after the rapture) will be hunted down like animals and beheaded if they refuse the mark. Thirst will be extreme - for the fresh water will turn to blood (part of God's wrath). Without the mark, no one can buy water. Drinking water will become more precious than gold. GREAT PRESSURE will be put upon people to just take the mark so they can drink. Thirst is a very powerful motivator.

 

Therefore, we have "tribulation" that has existed ever since Adam. 

 

There have been times of "great tribulation" such as the days of Hitler or when Jerusalem was surrounded in 70 AD.

 

There is "great tribulation" today, where thouands of believers are being killed because they serve Christ and not Mohammad. But this is NOT the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. John tells us that at the time of the rapture, those caught up will come out of "great tribulation." Yet, at that time John has not yet even started the 70th week, must less arrived at the midpoint and abomination that Jesus spoke of.

There will come days of "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of after the abomination. Make no mistake, there is great tribulation going on in the world today, in almost every Muslim nation. John was so right when He wrote that the antichrist spirit would be known by those who deny FATHER AND SON. We know today who denies Jesus as the SON.

 

The seals are not a part of the 70th week. John showed us in Revelation 4-5 that the first seals were broken as soon as Jesus ascended back into heaven. We are today between the 5th seal (for the martyrs of the church age) and the 6th seal which is the start of the DAy of the Lord and "the day of His wrath."

 

Make no mistake: God's wrath begins with the "sudden destruction" of Paul, which is the great earthquake at the 6th seal. This earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. Then after the 144,000 are sealed, Jesus will break the 7th seal, which is the offical start of the 70th week of Daniel. The trumpets will sound in the first half, and the vials will be poured out late in the second half. This is all clearly laid out in Revelation.

 

We are today waiting on the sound of a loud TRUMPET. WHO will be found worthy to be caught up? (Luke 21:36)

 

LAMAD

Hello LAMAD, you have made some interesting comments, some that I disagree with and some that I do not think you can prove with scripture, as it is written. I would enjoy discussing the subject with you if, you are interested in a serious Q&A type of discussion but not on this forum. Either by email or the link below, if you are receptive to the idea, if not, I understand. Edited August 24, 2014 by OneLight

[OneLight]

Hello LAMAD, you have made some interesting comments, some that I disagree with and some that I do not think you can prove with scripture, as it is written. I would enjoy discussing the subject with you if, you are interested in a serious Q&A type of discussion but not on this forum. Either by email or the link below, if you are receptive to the idea, if not, I understand.

Interesting. Why do you not want to have such a discussion here?

[Salty]

Salty

 

If those who come out of the Trib are of the First Resurrection.  Who are those who follow Satan at the end of the Mill?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Like I've iterated before, "the dead" (spiritually dead still with a mortal soul) are all those not of the "first resurrection". Any soul still subject to the "second death" in that time is not of the "first resurrection". If one is not allowed to approach Christ directly and serve Him, then they are of the spiritually dead still subject to the "second death".

 

At the end of the 1,000 when Satan is loosed one final time, any of those spiritually dead could still follow him. Only those of the "first resurrection" will not, because they specifically are Satan's target in that event.

[tevans9129]

 

Hello LAMAD, you have made some interesting comments, some that I disagree with and some that I do not think you can prove with scripture, as it is written. I would enjoy discussing the subject with you if, you are interested in a serious Q&A type of discussion but not on this forum. Either by email or the link below, if you are receptive to the idea, if not, I understand.

Interesting. Why do you not want to have such a discussion here?

 

 

Hi OneLight,

 

I read the ten commandants for posting when I registered and thought I was following them. I never used crude language, I never called any one names and I never asked anyone to do something that I was not willing to do myself in like manner. I expressed my opinion of how truth is more likely to be obtained, if, someone was interested in a serious discussion with me. I was reprimanded for expressing that opinion. Therefore, I do not wish to feel like I am walking on eggs with what I may say when I do not understand the rules correctly.

 

I try to be courteous and respond to those that address comments toward me by simply inviting them to use a different platform. It is their choice, just as I thought it was their choice if they responded to my comments on WCF. I have found most people that post on these forums give their rendition of what scripture says very freely but seem to be allergic to answering questions and providing scripture, as it is written, for evidence.  Furthermore, I have no patience, nor respect, for anyone that intentionally make false statements and I believe that is Biblical as God says He hates a lying tongue.  These comments are my opinions only.