TWO comings TWO raptures

[Salty]

Salty

 

So we are not now in the dispensation of Grace.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

You mean according to Dispensationalists?

 

If find that idea a bit misleading, because didn't the OT saints also find grace in their day? even though Christ had not yet come to die on the cross? They saw it afar off and believed by Faith Hebrews 11 shows us. And the Promise by Faith which we also have believed was first given through Abraham, our spiritual father (Gal.3).

 

Although Dispensationalism may divide Biblical time periods in God's Word according to the manifesting of His Salvation through His Son, in stages somewhat, I mean specifically to Gentiles also, it still is a doctrine of men loosely based on God's Word, and as such a 'tether' (a leash tying you to a pole). And some of the later doctrines of Dispensationalism that Darby never had, are being pushed today upon the unsuspecting, like the idea that there can be 2 Gospels, when Biblically there is only One Gospel, and it is to both Israelites and Gentiles. Moreover, the idea that Israel must go through the tribulation while Christ secretly raptures His Church prior to the tribulation is not even Biblical at all.

 

So why would I agree with man's Dispensationalism when it contains such errors of men's thinking, even though it does contain some truths?

 

In Luke 4 with Satan tempting our Lord Jesus to jump off the high pinnacle, he added a short phrase to the Psalms verse he quoted which changed the whole meaning. Likewise men's doctrines would not be deceptive if it contain only obvious lies. It only takes a small amount of leaven to leaven the whole loaf, like our Lord said.

[tevans9129]

 

 

 

Hi Enoch, do you have some explanations for the following promises that believers will not suffer the wrath of God?

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

 

 

Once again, the time of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked is on the last day of this present world when Jesus returns. It is not the tribulation timing.

 

The Rev.3:10 Scripture is a promise to spare His elect there from the coming 'temptation' which the tribulation is about. It is not about physical removal. And the fact that how you interpret that idea there, with it being nowhere written in the very Scriptures which gives the details of Christ's coming and our gathering, further shows how you're idea is grasping at straws in order to support the Pre-trib Rapture theory of men.

 

 1) Salty, since we see this issue differently, I would like to see scripture, just as it is written, supporting your views. I see you adding/changing what is written. As an example, your reference to Rev 3:10, which reads;

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

2) Can you point out where there is anything about “temptation” being what the “tribulation is about” in the verse?

 

Your quote of 1 Thess.5:9 omits the timing issues Apostle Paul gave in that chapter. That's to slice and dice, not to come to understanding in God's Word.

 

3) I would be happy to discuss 1 Thess 5  and Rev 3 with you line-by-line if you are so inclined, if, you will answer the questions that I ask as I will agree to do also, are you interested?

 

3a) Otherwise, it is nothing more than we each preaching our beliefs  if we cannot answer questions, would you agree?

 

The 1 Thess.1:10 verse is about the time of God's cup of wrath, which again is for the very last day of this present world, not for during the tribulation.

 

4) And your verse for that assertion in chapter 1 is….?

 

Also, we were given an example of His protection in Dan.3 involving the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary. Jesus was shown in... that hot furnace with His servants, and they came out of it with their clothes not even smelling of smoke. But the servants of the king of Babylon that only went near that furnace were immediately burned up. That is what God's consuming fire will do on the last day of this world. It will not harm His Faithful who wait for His Son to come.

 

5) According to scripture, what would you say is the purpose of the tribulation period?

 

[Salty]

 

1) Thanks for the reply Salty. 

 

Yes there is Scripture support of where our Lord Jesus goes when He returns.

 

2) Was my comment about Jesus’ return to earth, or was it about Him coming down from heaven to call believers up to meet Him in the air?

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

 

3) Can you point out where there is anything in those verses about Jesus coming to earth?

 

4) Does it make sense that Jesus would come to earth to call believers to meet Him in the air?

 

It's written in Zech.14 and in Acts 1, both pointing to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, on earth. Obviously you have not read that.

 

5) Not true Salty, I have read Zechariah many times. Actually, you cannot reference a verse that I have not read from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21.

 

It doesn't need to be included in 1 Thess.4, for the Zechariah 14 Scripture about His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives was already written long before.

 

6) Can you quote one verse in Zech 14 that is directed toward Christians?

 

6a) I would be happy to go through the chapter verse-by-verse with you if you have an interest. I would request that we would both agree to answer all questions asked if you are interested in such a discussion.

 

Apostle Paul was scholar of the Old Testament, so no since in implying that he didn't know about that Zech.14 Scripture either.

 

7) Where did I imply that Paul knew nothing about Zech 14?

 

There are no verses about physically escaping the tribulation,

 

8) OK, to whom and for what are the following verses addressing?

 

8a) I am not speaking of tribulations and persecutions, I am speaking of God’s wrath as stated in scripture.

 

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

 

8b) When is the “day of wrath” of God?

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

8c) When is this “hour of testing”, who is it promised to, how is it accomplished and can you quote scripture as it is written supporting your answers?

 

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

 

8d) Who, when and how “shall be saved from the wrath of God?

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

8e) Does that say anything about persecution or tribulation or is it specific to God’s wrath?

 

1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

 

8f) What “wrath to come” is Jesus going to rescue us from?

 

 which is NOT... the time when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked anyway. The only idea of 'escape' given is about escaping the temptation of false worship during the tribulation.

 

9) I disagree but will await your answers to the above questions.

 

 

We can't have our Lord Jesus hanging in the air when Scripture has told us His coming is about His return to this earth. But the pre-trib rapture doctrine instead teaches we are raptured to Heaven to wait out the tribulation. That's a long time for our Lord Jesus to be hanging in the clouds on His way to Jerusalem on earth.

 

Paul didn't have to point directly to where Jesus in returning with His saints within that 1 Thess.4 Scripture. It is written elsewhere in Scripture, which I already mentioned. We were supposed to know about it before we got to the New Testament Books, for I assure, Apostle Paul knew it, and since he didn't mention it in that specific Scripture, it shows those he was speaking to had to have known about it also. So how is it you want to act like it's not part of the subject of that 1 Thess.4 Scripture? I know, the Pre-trib Rapture doctors do the same with Paul's 1 Cor.15 Scripture too. Slice and dice is what I call that kind of study of confusion.

 

Are believers on Christ Jesus not called 'saints' also? You mean Jesus returns ALONE in Zech.14 with His feet touching upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem? or just with the OT saints? Of course He does not return alone, nor with the OT saints, He returns with all... His saints which is His Church. In Acts 1 the angels there told us how He returns to that place also, for that's where He ascended to Heaven from. But I get what you're trying to do. If the word 'saints' appears in the OT Books, it's never about Christians, thus there's no mention of Christ's Salvation to Gentiles in the OT either, right? Wrong!

 

The moderators will not allow us to do line upon line study. Your offer to cover Zech.14 would not produce anything anyway, because if you think that Scripture has nothing to do with Jesus' second coming to the Mount of Olives with His Church, where He ascended from per Acts 1, then no one here could ever help you understand that. Only The Lord can.

 

The Rom.2:5 verse is about the time of God's wrath on the day of The Lord, and extending into Christ's Millennial reign. God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked on the last day of this present world. We as believers on Christ who do not fall away are not... assigned to that wrath. But to Satan's wrath during the tribulation, that's a different matter, for that we will experience by temptation to believe on the pseudo-Christ that is coming.

 

Rev.3

¹⁰ Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

That Scripture IS... about the tribulation time, whether you want to talk about tribulation or not. The time of God's Wrath certainly is NOT... a test, but a judgment, huge, huge difference between the two times and their events. Biblical evidence? Christ's Olivet Discourse, Rev.6, Rev.7, Rev.9, Rev.11, Rev.13, Rev.16, 2 Thess.2; 1 John 2:18, etc., and many places in the OT prophets, especially the Book of Isaiah.

 

I've already explained what timing the 1 Thess.5:9 is pointing to, not the tribulation timing, but the time of God's wrath on the last day that will end the tribulation. Tribulation first, then God's wrath to end that tribulation, get it? The 1 Thess.1:10 verse is not implying a physical rescue, otherwise it would go completely against Scripture which declares we will be here for the tribulation, like Matt.24:29-31, 2 Thess.2, Rev.16:15, including 1 Thess.4 (yes, 1 Thess.4 also, because in 1 Thess.5 Paul showed the "as a thief" timing hard-linked with the "day of the Lord" events. He was continuing the subject of Christ's coming into the 1 Thess.5 chapter. In 2 Pet.3:10 Peter did the same timing link with the "as a thief". And in Rev.16:15 Jesus did the same.

 

 

In the last part of your post you quoted me out of context (shown in red). You should have included the verse I was commenting on, which the whole reads thusly...

 

"The 1 Thess.1:10 verse is about the time of God's cup of wrath, which again is for the very last day of this present world, not for during the tribulation."

[Salty]

 

 

Once again, the time of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked is on the last day of this present world when Jesus returns. It is not the tribulation timing.

 

The Rev.3:10 Scripture is a promise to spare His elect there from the coming 'temptation' which the tribulation is about. It is not about physical removal. And the fact that how you interpret that idea there, with it being nowhere written in the very Scriptures which gives the details of Christ's coming and our gathering, further shows how you're idea is grasping at straws in order to support the Pre-trib Rapture theory of men.

 

 1) Salty, since we see this issue differently, I would like to see scripture, just as it is written, supporting your views. I see you adding/changing what is written. As an example, your reference to Rev 3:10, which reads;

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

2) Can you point out where there is anything about “temptation” being what the “tribulation is about” in the verse?

 

Your quote of 1 Thess.5:9 omits the timing issues Apostle Paul gave in that chapter. That's to slice and dice, not to come to understanding in God's Word.

 

3) I would be happy to discuss 1 Thess 5  and Rev 3 with you line-by-line if you are so inclined, if, you will answer the questions that I ask as I will agree to do also, are you interested?

 

3a) Otherwise, it is nothing more than we each preaching our beliefs  if we cannot answer questions, would you agree?

 

The 1 Thess.1:10 verse is about the time of God's cup of wrath, which again is for the very last day of this present world, not for during the tribulation.

 

4) And your verse for that assertion in chapter 1 is….?

 

Also, we were given an example of His protection in Dan.3 involving the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary. Jesus was shown in... that hot furnace with His servants, and they came out of it with their clothes not even smelling of smoke. But the servants of the king of Babylon that only went near that furnace were immediately burned up. That is what God's consuming fire will do on the last day of this world. It will not harm His Faithful who wait for His Son to come.

 

5) According to scripture, what would you say is the purpose of the tribulation period?

 

 

 

 

I've not changed anything, you simply don't recognize the KJV Bible, which is the version of Rev.3:10 that I quoted.

 

Rev.3

¹⁰ Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

Where is there the word 'rapture' anywhere in that verse? I don't see it, not even a word like 'gathering' either.

 

 

Go ahead, try the line upon line thing, if you dare.

 

It's not going to change the KJV Bible on that Rev.3:10 verse though, "the hour of temptation".

 

So far, all you've done is throw a couple of verses here and there taking them out of their Biblical context, as if they only exist and there's nothing more said about the subject in other Bible Scripture. That's a fragmentation of God's Word, not a show of desire for the whole Loaf.

[tevans9129]

 

 

Hi Salty, a couple of questions if I may.

 

Do you believe in dispensations in scripture?

 

Who Is Matthew 24 written to?

 

What are your thoughts on Replacement Theology?

 

Do you honestly think I don't know that Pre-trib Rapture doctrine game?

 

1) Sir, I am not interested in “games” when it comes to God’s word and I would suggest that you not be also.

 

Dispensationalism came from John Darby, the same one who got the pre-trib secret rapture idea rolling in Britain in the 1830's, which then spread to the Americas. For over 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to a post-trib coming of our Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church.

 

So why would I even think about trusting what that one man John Darby believed and taught?

 

2) In answer to your question, you should not, unless, it can be defended with scripture.

 

Is he my Lord?

 

3) Only you can answer that question.

 

Is he your Lord?

 

4) No, there is only one Lord and one word of God.

 

If not, then listen to our True Lord Jesus in His Word.

 

5) Just to be sure that I understand you correctly, you do not want me to listen to how Darby, and numerous other Bible scholars, interprets scripture but you have no problem if I listen to your interpretation, is that correct?    

 

Their idea that Matt.24 is written only to Israel is a grand huge joke too! Especially when those present our Lord Jesus was speaking that to represent the early foundation of His Church!

 

6) I see opinions in that statement but no scripture that supports those opinions.

 

7) I would love to go through chapter 24 with you verse-by-verse but I seriously doubt if you would be interested in answering my questions, but I could be wrong.

[Salty]

 

 

 

Hi Salty, a couple of questions if I may.

 

Do you believe in dispensations in scripture?

 

Who Is Matthew 24 written to?

 

What are your thoughts on Replacement Theology?

 

Do you honestly think I don't know that Pre-trib Rapture doctrine game?

 

1) Sir, I am not interested in “games” when it comes to God’s word and I would suggest that you not be also.

 

Dispensationalism came from John Darby, the same one who got the pre-trib secret rapture idea rolling in Britain in the 1830's, which then spread to the Americas. For over 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to a post-trib coming of our Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church.

 

So why would I even think about trusting what that one man John Darby believed and taught?

 

2) In answer to your question, you should not, unless, it can be defended with scripture.

 

Is he my Lord?

 

3) Only you can answer that question.

 

Is he your Lord?

 

4) No, there is only one Lord and one word of God.

 

If not, then listen to our True Lord Jesus in His Word.

 

5) Just to be sure that I understand you correctly, you do not want me to listen to how Darby, and numerous other Bible scholars, interprets scripture but you have no problem if I listen to your interpretation, is that correct?    

 

Their idea that Matt.24 is written only to Israel is a grand huge joke too! Especially when those present our Lord Jesus was speaking that to represent the early foundation of His Church!

 

6) I see opinions in that statement but no scripture that supports those opinions.

 

7) I would love to go through chapter 24 with you verse-by-verse but I seriously doubt if you would be interested in answering my questions, but I could be wrong.

 

 

If you and I both... only listen to The LORD in His Word, then we both together will come to the same conclusions and be of the same mind, like Apostle Paul admonished those in Christ's Church.

 

How do I mean that then, listen to our Lord Jesus in His Word? It means to verify by what He gave us in His Holy Writ, and not by what men say. Does that include me or any other man? Of course it does!

 

Do I read the works of Bible scholars? You betcha I do. Do I rely on them for absolute Truth? Absolutely not! I rely on The LORD Himself per His Holy Writ by The Holy Spirit. Education can help too, but without His leading by The Holy Spirit, His Truth will not come forth to the reader.

 

Have you not read Ephesians 2:20 where Paul declared the foundation of Christ's Church? Since Apostle Paul declared God's OT prophets and Apostles as the foundation, Christ being The Chief Cornerstone, then what man would try to claim His Apostles with Him upon the Mount of Olives in Matt.24 are not His Church, for such a claim is insanity?

 

Actually, I would love to go through Matthew 24 line upon line. Don't think the moderators would allow that though, but anyway, you have nothing to offer me about it, I already know by the doctrines of men you've already expressed in your posts, and by your line of questioning.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

Hi Floatingaxe.

 

I know exactly how you feel.

To believe in the pre trib, one have to break many scriptures.

And they dont seem to worry about that.

 

You have a good day.

 

jesse.

 

 

I think you missed Floatingaxe's response in that post, which shows he/she agrees with the Pre-trib secret Rapture theory.

 

Salty.

 

I noticed that when he called me ignorant.

I must have touched a raw nerve.that;s ok.

 

Pre trib says; All taken up first ;then the tribulation to purify them through the fire,and given white robes.

 

Post trib says. The majority is to go through the fire of  tribulation; made white;then resurrected.

 

I wash my apples first before I eat it. Not the other way around. Eat first;then wash?

I think this is commonsense. 

 

jesse.

 

 

No one I know who holds to the Pre-Trib rapture of the Church teaching from scripture believes anyone is going to undergo purification by fire. Tribulation is for the unbelieving world, not the Bride. We who are His are already pure because of Christ and His cleansing blood.

[Last Daze]

Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation.

 

There's a clear distinction between tribulation and God's wrath / judgment.  People tend to use those words interchangeably when it concerns end times prophecy and obfuscate their meanings by turning it into basically a "certain time of yucky".  Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.  At least that's been my experience.

 

As I see it, God's judgment / wrath is in the seven trumpets / vials of the seventh seal.  The first six seals are events that include the great tribulation,not judgments, not wrath.

 

I think we can all agree that in the world we will have tribulation and at some point it will turn into a great tribulation, and that we are not appointed for wrath.  Substitute "tribulation" with "persecution" and I think its a better read since the meaning of "tribulation" has become convoluted.

 

Persecution is something believers should expect to encounter, not escape.

 

The distinction needs to be made.

[tevans9129]

Salty, apparently you do not wish to answer my questions and/or address my points in the space that I leave for you and since I am not too keen on searching through all of your comments trying to find an answer that may or may not fit, I am going to limit my questions to one per post in order to minimize my misunderstanding.  Starting with questions which I have previously asked and have not seen your answer.

 

"Yes there is Scripture support of where our Lord Jesus goes when He returns."

 

2) Was my comment about Jesus’ return to earth, or was it about Him coming down from heaven to call believers up to meet Him in the air?

[tevans9129]

Salty, apparently you do not wish to answer my questions and/or address my points in the space that I leave for you and since I am not too keen on searching through all of your comments trying to find an answer that may or may not fit, I am going to limit my questions to one per post in order to minimize my misunderstanding.  Starting with questions which I have previously asked and have not seen your answer.

 

"Yes there is Scripture support of where our Lord Jesus goes when He returns."

 

2) Was my comment about Jesus’ return to earth, or was it about Him coming down from heaven to call believers up to meet Him in the air?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

 

3) Can you point out where there is anything in those verses about Jesus coming to earth?

 

4) Does it make sense that Jesus would come to earth to call believers to meet Him in the air?