PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Spock]

Enoch2021,

You did not disappoint me in your latest rebuttal to thunder.

Our dear brother is away, so let me see if I could stand in his place and answer this as he would. (I read his book and I've become a huge fan. Admittedly, he did not discuss Revelation 6 much in his book, so it will be sketchy.)

I knew when he said rev 6:17 was around the "goats timeline" you would hold him accountable to this. You and I both know the sheep and goats judgment is in Matt 25 after the 70th week of Daniel. I think our esteemed brother here, Rolling Thunder, sees the seals as encompassing the trumpets and bowls. In other words, the trumpets and bowls are inside the seals. I think he sees The seals as a general outline of the revelation judgments.

I'm pretty sure he does not see the seals- trumpets- bowls as being consecutive. I think he sees the trumpets and bowls as being consecutive though. I'm not sure I explained him correctly. I think I did.

So to recap, I believe his timeline is something like this:

1. Abomination of desolation

2. War-seal one

3. Results of war-seal 2,3,4. (Rapture around here)

4. Believers left behind after the Rapture are martyred here-seal 5

5. Gods wrath poured out-building up to Armageddon-seal 6

As you can see, rev 6:17 follows point 5. Naturally the Raptured saints and martyred saints are done with, so this is why he said for me not to be concerned with this wrath. Of course, believers are promised to be kept from God's wrath too.

Anyhow, I'm sure he will be back soon, so if I misrepresented him I'm sure he will both correct me and enlighten you.

Spock out

[ENOCH2010]

The martyrs under the alter started with Steven and that group continues to grow daily, that group will include those killed during the tribulation

[Enoch2021]

Enoch2021,

You did not disappoint me in your latest rebuttal to thunder.

Our dear brother is away, so let me see if I could stand in his place and answer this as he would. (I read his book and I've become a huge fan. Admittedly, he did not discuss Revelation 6 much in his book, so it will be sketchy.)

I knew when he said rev 6:17 was around the "goats timeline" you would hold him accountable to this. You and I both know the sheep and goats judgment is in Matt 25 after the 70th week of Daniel. I think our esteemed brother here, Rolling Thunder, sees the seals as encompassing the trumpets and bowls. In other words, the trumpets and bowls are inside the seals. I think he sees The seals as a general outline of the revelation judgments.

I'm pretty sure he does not see the seals- trumpets- bowls as being consecutive. I think he sees the trumpets and bowls as being consecutive though. I'm not sure I explained him correctly. I think I did.

So to recap, I believe his timeline is something like this:

1. Abomination of desolation

2. War-seal one

3. Results of war-seal 2,3,4. (Rapture around here)

4. Believers left behind after the Rapture are martyred here-seal 5

5. Gods wrath poured out-building up to Armageddon-seal 6

As you can see, rev 6:17 follows point 5. Naturally the Raptured saints and martyred saints are done with, so this is why he said for me not to be concerned with this wrath. Of course, believers are promised to be kept from God's wrath too.

Anyhow, I'm sure he will be back soon, so if I misrepresented him I'm sure he will both correct me and enlighten you.

Spock out

 

 

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You did not disappoint me in your latest rebuttal to thunder.

 

Glad I could Oblige 

 

 

(I read his book and I've become a huge fan.

 

No Comment

 

 

You and I both know the sheep and goats judgment is in Matt 25 after the 70th week of Daniel.

 

Yep for sure.  The more I attempt to piece it together, the more it leads me to Those who helped the 144,000 and or The Tribulation Saints........ (Sheep) and Those who didn't help (Goats).

 

 

I'm pretty sure he does not see the seals- trumpets- bowls as being consecutive.

 

And that position is Absolutely Untenable by the Text  (Caveat: except for the "Parenthesis" outline I provided in a previous post).  You would have to go completely Off the Reservation and Contrive till the cows came home.

 

Gods wrath poured out-building up to Armageddon-seal 6

 

This one is gonna Rock You     The "Battle of Armageddon" is a Misnomer.  There is no battle there.....IT'S A STAGING AREA. (Military Training has some benefits I Guess lol)

 

Can you show me a "BATTLE" in Rev 16??  Good Luck.   This gives it away.....

 

(Revelation 16:16) "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."      Staging Area!!

 

 

The Real Battle and the LORDS SECOND COMING IS here......

 

(Revelation 19:15-16) "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

And is Fore-Shadowed here.....

 

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."  <------------------- See Below

 

 

The believing Jewish Remnant.....The one satan/beast are after because they are trying to stop them from Petitioning the LORD to Come Back (Hosea 5:15 THE MAIN PURPOSE OF GREAT TRIBULATION), when they are admonished to "Flee into The Mountains".....Flee to Bozrah (Sheepfold)------Petra Today (Indiana Jones)....

 

 

 

 

The LORD SAID....."blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

Well.....

 

 

 

And confirms.....

 

 

(Micah 2:12) "I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men."

 

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

 

Praise The LORD!!!!!!!

[Montana Marv]

The martyrs under the alter started with Steven and that group continues to grow daily, that group will include those killed during the tribulation

So was Stephen beheaded.  Those under the alter of the 5th Seal are the same as those of Rev 20:4; The Beheaded ones.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[rollinTHUNDER]

The martyrs under the alter started with Steven and that group continues to grow daily, that group will include those killed during the tribulation

I would expect that Steven will be among those who are resurrected with the dead in Christ, which will occur shortly before these martyrs are killed.

Rev. 6 martyrs are overcome by the beast (Rev, 13:7).

Cheers

[ARGOSY]

Hey Enoch, I haven't read this entire thread, but who do the post tribbies believe will be at the sheep and goats judgment if Jesus Raptured the believers just before he returns? It seems to me there would have to be only goats. I speculate they must believe the people who are not believers but also did not take the mark of the beast may be sheep. Is this correct?

I'm not sure what Enoch's answer will be, but I believe they are entire nations

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left

I think it's important to remember that the sheep and goats is taken out of the parable of talents, to show the sign of the end of the age, which is the conclusion of Christ' disciple's question in (Matt. 24:3). But it's just as important to know that parables are just little stories that contain little clues for the wise to understand, yet the foolish will not get it. They aren't supposed to be taken in the literal sense. The sheep and goats is a story that points to Armageddon and Joel 3:2, when God gathers all nations (armies) to battle near Jerusalem. Then they will turn and attack Christ and His army. All of these are among the goats that will be killed as judgment that keeps them from entering the millennial kingdom. He won't bring entire nations to this battle, nor will He judge the land that they come from then. Included in their numbers will be the beast, the false prophet and everyone who takes the mark will be killed as well. This will be about half of the world's population when all is said and done. The other half are the survivors of the nations that did not take the mark of the beast and the remnant that flees to the mountains after the abomination of desolation (sheep). This is the final judgment seen in Rev. 11:18. This is not the Church being judged here. The sheep that enter into the millennium here are not saints, for they will be ruled over by the saints that return with Christ.

Judgment begins with the House of God (1 Pet.4:17), so if you want to understand Christ rendering His judgment of the saints then you need to back up. Saints judgment/rewards begin at the gathering of the elect (Matt.24:30-31), which Christ provides many angles in the parables that follow all the way down to (Matt.25:30).

Cheers

Thanks for that. We could be in agreement, because I relate the sheep and goats judgment to the Jehosaphat judgment of Joel 3. But its entirely possible that the Jehosaphat judgment is also the Armageddon/winepress judgment as well.

I agree with you about the saints judgment, for two reasons I cannot relate the saints judgment to the sheep.

Firstly the sheep are positively judged for how they treat the "brethren". To see the sheep as the brethren to me is not consistent with the wording of the parable.

Secondly if the sheep are Christians, we are separated at the resurrection. To be gathered again into some sort of judgment to be separated again makes no sense, the population of earth is split at the rapture, some go into the clouds, and others are left behind.

[Montana Marv]

That's 4 first resurrections for the just and 1 for the unjust in your pre-trib doctrine marv, you can add as many as you want in this forum but Gods word says only 2, and they are both after the tribulation.

Enoch 2010

 

Yes you have finally seen the light.  At least Four entry's into the First Resurrection with the Bride going First;; and at least Two entry's into the Second Resurrection, the A/C and the False Prophet going first.   There are Two final outcomes. First Resurrection being eternity with Christ; Second Resurrection being eternity without Christ.  An individual partakes in one of the two.  First Choice or Second Choice.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ENOCH2010]

Gods Word says only 2 resurrections, it says nothing about phases.

[Hindsfeet]

Gods Word says only 2 resurrections, it says nothing about phases.

 

Yes, there are 2 Resurrections - the just and the unjust. These are the Glorified Bodies to receive eternal glory, or eternal damnation.

There are multiple Harvests/Comings/Raptures/Come Hithers.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Hindsfeet

[Enoch2021]

Gods Word says only 2 resurrections, it says nothing about phases.

 

 

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You're right, from GOD'S perspective there are 2 Resurrections.

 

Apparently HE'S not counting as "Resurrections" :

 

Lazarus (Technically The First One) unless there's another/others I'm unaware of.

 

How about Jesus' Resurrection?  or.....

 

(Matthew 27:52-53) "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  {53} And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

 

That sounds like "resurrections" to me 

 

How about the Martyr's underneath the Alter in Rev 6?

 

It appears there are "resurrections" by our definition....... but it also appears GOD has something different in mind.