PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Spock]

See what I mean Spock. He don't want to hear anything that rebuts the pre-trib doctrine

That's not true. No one here on this thread thinks they have all wisdom and is beyond listening to other peoples thoughts, opinions, and theories.

Honestly, it means very little to me if you believe as I do or not.

However, the way we say things and present our arguments is very important. I believe God wants us to present doctrine in HUMILITY to maintain the peace. We all need to check ourselves on this one, including me.

[ARGOSY]

The only way for pre-tribbers to have a rapture before the second coming is they have to add a resurrection prior to the 2 the Bible teaches in Rev.20, and we all know what the Bible says about adding to the book. But it seems they all are willing to add a resurrection so they can get outa here before the Lord's second coming.

This is perfectly true. Daniel 12:1-3 clearly says all are resurrected at the time the antichrist dies. Rev 20 refers to the "first resurrection" at the timing of the second coming, after the beast has martyred believers. And 1 Corinthians 15 clearly places receiving the rapture at this SAME resurrection event:

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man. 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

So I encourage you to continue to speak the truth in this matter. The rapture occurs at the resurrection, the above quote is 100% clear on this, and the resurrection occurs at the end of the tribulation, Daniel 12 and Revelation 20 are 100% clear on this.

[ARGOSY]

The only way for pre-tribbers to have a rapture before the second coming is they have to add a resurrection prior to the 2 the Bible teaches in Rev.20, and we all know what the Bible says about adding to the book. But it seems they all are willing to add a resurrection so they can get outa here before the Lord's second coming.

Puh-lease. Stop this silliness. I'm sure your words sadden your big brother very much here (Enoch 2021).

 

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We are NO RELATION.......WHATSOEVER lol

 

And your...............PUH----LEASE was spot on!!!  Don't need to "add" anything to that

Enoch, we are all brothers in Christ.

[Spock]

Brother Argosy,

Here is a thought on Daniel 12 for you to ponder that I've had on these verses. Don't know how accurate my exegesis is, but here goes:

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

At that time refers to the end times...Multitudes who sleep in the dust will awake...

1. Some to everlasting life, sometime during the 70th week of Daniel. (Rapture)

2. Others to shame and everlasting contempt, at the end of Millennium Reign of Christ (not a rapture, but rather final judgment day)

In other words, perhaps there is time interval within this verse. I have seen this done before in the Bible. What do you think?

[Spock]

The only way for pre-tribbers to have a rapture before the second coming is they have to add a resurrection prior to the 2 the Bible teaches in Rev.20, and we all know what the Bible says about adding to the book. But it seems they all are willing to add a resurrection so they can get outa here before the Lord's second coming.

I will answer this post directly myself.

Rev 20 talks about two resurrections. I'm not 100% sure the rapture is labeled a resurrection, but let's look at the word of God:

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Resurrection # 1: sounds like the trib saints here, those who had not worshipped the beast, sounds like the people who were martyred during the great trib. These people rose before the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Resurrection #2:sounds like these are the people not saved going to judgment day after the 1000 year reign.

Is the rapture technically called a resurrection? It may or may not be. When Christ rose from the dead, was this considered a resurrection? If so, then this was the first resurrection of the dead, wouldn't you agree. But this could not be considered the first resurrection according to rev 20. So maybe the rapture is treated in the same way.

Bottom line: I wouldn't get caught up in the labeling here. It seems like rev 20 is only talking about a select few people when it talks about the first resurrection. You don't really think this is talking about all the people resurrected from the dead, do you? There will obviously be many many more people resurrected from the dead other than these trib saints. If they are not part of this first resurrection, what resurrection were they a part of? Maybe the rapture/resurrection has its own label.

Anyhow, this is how I see it.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Imo, the following alone is enough to convince me post trib is in error: Matthew 24:29-31 is NOT the 2nd coming, but rather the rapture-

Matt 24: Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Compare this to the clearest second coming passage in the Bible, Rev 19-

Rev 19: 11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”a He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Note differences:one is accompanied by a sign, one has all the peoples of the earth mourning, one has Jesus coming in the clouds, one has a trumpet call, one has a gathering of the elect from the four winds, one has no mention of any battle to follow. (All in Matthew-rapture)

The other has Jesus on a white horse, many crowns on his head, dressed differently, and the armies of Heaven following him to BATTLE. (Rev-2nd coming)

Honestly, I don't know how anyone can think these are one and the same. (Shaking my head)

Good stuff, Spockster.

But what version are you reading that says all the people of the earth mourn?

 

Spock disclaimer: I admit, I'm not sure about the timing of the rapture be it pre trib or pre wrath, mainly because I'm not dogmatic about when God's wrath begins. (Rev 6, Rev 11, Rev 15 all mention God's wrath)

Today I am leaning toward a rapture shortly after the abomination of desolation mainly because of my interpretation of Matt 24. But, one thing I feel pretty sure of is this- the rapture is NOT post trib, after the 70th week of Daniel.

God's wrath aside, if you see the gathering in Matt. 24:29-31 as the rapture, then it is most definitely after the abomination of desolation. Unless, of course, someone pulls that rabbit out of your hat.

[Spock]

RT,

NIV. I believe.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/24-30.htm

[ENOCH2010]

The Bible lists 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remaining, the rapture verses say the dead in Christ rise first then we which are alive and remain will join them in the air. What we have here in Rev. 20 shows when these 2 resurrections happen, the only problem is the pre-trib doctrine teaches of a resurrection happening before the tribulation so the church can skip out before the tribulation starts, the problem is the Bible doesn't say anything about such a resurrection. We might ought to go with what the Bible says, not what some feel good doctrine teaches. 

[Montana Marv]

Enoch 2010

 

Why is it that Scripture says that All Mankind from the just before the 5th Trumpet and on (Rev 9:20) are demon and idol worshipers.  Where does a post tribber fit into this mix of worshiping.  Scripture says All Mankind continues to worship demons and idols.  It does not say some of mankind, but ALL.

 

Because of this worshiping of demon and idols, I disregard the Post Trib position totally.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ENOCH2010]

Marv, you and I have this discussion before, brother you are among the group that wants to add a resurrection so your belief in the pre-trib doctrine is feasible. We might ought to go with what the Bible says," let Gods Word be true and every mans a liar."