A different end times scenario to discuss

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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Not really.  I gave you a METRIC TON of scripture to back up my point, which included the one passage that you claim as your "answer".

 

Actually you didn't.  It was Scripture but only proving my point..... to be precise.

 

And, there's only so many ways to describe a Turkey Sandwich.... when you say it's Peking Duck, then the conversation has to stop.

 

 

You seem to assume that your reading and interpretation of the bible is as infallible as the Word itself.

 

Well Words have meanings and they make up a sentences and then paragraphs and then books.  We read WORDS to understand a message.  And there is no private interpretation......just "THE" and "A" Interpretation:

 

 

2 Peter 1:20

 

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

 

 

You chop up my post and twist it to mean something else that you can throw an argument or accusation ("logical fallacy!!") at.

 

Baseless Unsupported Conjecture.  Where?

 

 

You don't read what I say to find my intended meaning

 

Well I can't read minds, I just have your written words........they have meanings.

 

 

you read it to find something you can argue with.

 

I read them because you wrote them.  I look for TRUTH, Logic and Scriptural errors.....nothing more.

 

 

You see me as an opponent because I disagreed with you in other topics, so therefore we must be at odds about everything

 

I don't see you at all.....just words.  That's all you do is disagree and it's based on your Opinion with never much Support Scripturally or otherwise.

 

 

 you would have realized that I was considering your side of this argument.

 

 

It's not "my" position it's GOD'S.  I just merely Quote HIS WORDS then connect with other Scripture (If/when needed) to tie off any "imagined" loose ends.

 

 

Hindsight may be 20/20, but foresight is blind. Prophecy is given by someone with Vision, but often interpreted by the those who can't see (fallible humans).

 

Prophecy is Given by GOD and ONLY GOD and Written in my Bible.....and, he gave me the gift of reading.

 

 

I don't need to know every detail

 

I do....the GEMS are in the details!

 

 

When Jesus comes back, He won't commend me on my theories and speculations, but on my readiness.

 

How will you be "ready" if you don't know or study Scripture.

 

And it's a Strawman....who said anything about personal theories or speculations?

 

 

"If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." - 1 Corinthians 13:2

 

And.....?  Are you implying something here?  Those concepts (Prophecies/Mysteries/Knowledge/Faith) and Love are not Mutually Exclusive...can't I have All? 

 

Or do you wish me to let people Undermine the WORD of GOD but not say anything because it might hurt their feelings....(Because everyone's Entitled to their OPINION.)  Is that LOVE to YOU??

 

Exact opposite to me, Love.

[ENOCH2010]

Nobody is undermining the word of God here, people are disagreeing with your interpretation of the Word of God.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

I just want to throw this out for us to civilly discuss. I'm not saying this is what I believe yet, but it is something I'm leaning toward, considering, weighing, and researching. Your thoughts will be welcomed of course.

So here goes. I will start with a timeline and then add to it as the thread progresses:

1. First Fruits Rapture (think first fruits harvest) of the FAITHFUL CHURCH ONLY -because these believers are watchful, alert, and living for God, not for self or the world, they will be kept from the hour of testing. These are the people who take Luke 21:36 seriously: "Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man."  (I believe ALL these things means all - the entire 70th week, which includes the frightful Seals too.)

 

-these people are special and only are taken to the wedding supper.(think church of Philadelphia promise Rev 3:10)

Hi Spock, interesting thread, but for now I will just deal with with your verse Luke 21:36. I feel that the pre-trib rendering of the verse does not make sense in context, because Jesus is talking to the same group of faithful Christians all the way through Luke 21:

v12 they will lay their hands on YOU

v16 YOU will be betrayed

v18 by YOUR endurance you will gain your lives

v21 when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded

v28 lift up YOUR heads

v31 when YOU see these things happening recognize that the kingdom of God is near

v34 Be on guard, so that YOUR hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness

v36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that YOU may have strength to escape ALL THESE THINGS that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

In context, Jesus is speaking to faithful Christians throughout the entire chapter. Those first seven events DEFINITELY are NOT meant for the less faithful Christians in context. Why then would Jesus have a second rule for "special" Christians that don't even have to go through what other faithful Christians have to endure?

Do you really believe there are two categories here?:

1) Faithful enduring persecuted betrayed Christians

2) An even better more faithful group of Christians who will not endure anything, but will escape all these things

Furthermore Jesus continues to use the word "you" all the way through, as if he is referring to just one group, not two groups.

Taking all the above into account, I view the verse in context meaning:

34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with DISSIPATION and DRUNKENNESS and the WORRIES OF LIFE, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things (TEMPTATIONS) that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

 

 

 

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ahhh, found it.  Was this the post you were referring to?

 

Well....

 

 

Argosy please pay attention to detail Brother.  Luke 21 and Matthew 24 (The Olivet Discourse ) are not the same.  You missed a CRUCIAL PART in Luke 21.  Allow me to show you with a compare and contrast:  I'll BOLD the difference it's a Biggy!!

 

Matthew 24:

 

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 

Matthew's account is a Private Briefing on the Mount of Olives and is talking about events AFTER the previous signs listed....End Times.

 

Luke 21:

 

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

 

Luke's Account is to a gathering in the Temple.  He's talking about BEFORE ALL The Signs Listed....... Destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.  When you see Jerusalem Surrounded.....That was Titus Vespasian in 70AD with the 5th, 10th, 12th, and 15th Roman Legions.  By the way....all the Christians paid heed to this Prophecy and got out.  Millions of Jews died.

 

See it?

 

 

This also speaks to a very important concept that I've been stressing to you.  Let me ask you, why was Jerusalem destroyed in 70AD?

 

 

(Luke 19:41-44) "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,  {42} Saying,  If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.  {43}  For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,  {44}  And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

 

Jesus held them accountable to know Daniel 9:25, Gabriel's Prophecy of Christ's Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem; and this......

 

(Zechariah 9:9) "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

 

Gives a whole "NEW MEANING" to Bible Study.  Please Brother, pay attention to detail.

 

 

ps. Moreover, none of the passages you outlined have any IMPACT WHATSOEVER on Rapture Doctrine anyway.

 

 

 

Enoch, thanks for finding my post and replying.

 

I agree with your understanding of Luke 21, and Matthew 24.  Yes there's a contrast between the events before the exile (30AD-70AD) and the events after the exile (signs in the sky and the second coming). I agree with you about the consequencees for Israel resulting in the destruction of 70AD by the Roman army, Israel was held acccountable. As usual God sent someone to warn the people before he sent an army of judgment, and yet Israel did not listen to the words of Jesus. I don't feel that your correct understanding of the Olivet discourse in any manner influences the point that I made.

 

Jesus was not saying to two groups of people, group one you unfaithful bunch , watch out for signs in the " sun, moon and stars"  your "redemption is drawing near", "be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap". And group two, you faithful Christians, you will escape "all these things" including the signs in the sky"

 

The "things" the faithful Christians will escape are in context: Luke 21: "dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth."

 

ie faithful Christians will escape the temptations, and so escape the "TRAP" of "that day".  ie we will all escape God's wrath on the day of the Lord.  I just don't see two groups there, the unfaithful who must watch for the signs, and the faithful that will escape everything, even the signs.

[Enoch2021]

Nobody is undermining the word of God here, people are disagreeing with your interpretation of the Word of God.

 

 

Yea, and that's all they're doing is disagreeing.....they're not Supporting from Scripture.

 

And there aren't "different" Interpretations, There is only ONE or "A" or "The" interpretation....

 

(2 Peter 1:20) "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

 

 

All I have to do is Post Revelation 19...... where THE BRIDE (The Church) follows CHRIST FROM HEAVEN in HIS Second Coming. 

 

That eliminates all the Greek forms of "from" and "of" and everything else including all the other Speculations in TOTO.

 

Do you have an answer to Rev 19, by the way?

[ENOCH2010]

Take your blinders off and read what the Bible says, not what you have been told is says by Margret M. in the 1800's

[Sheniy]

 

You chop up my post and twist it to mean something else that you can throw an argument or accusation ("logical fallacy!!") at.

 

Baseless Unsupported Conjecture.  Where?

 

Right here, for one.   You chopped up my post, picked a line you disagree with, then you reply with just a logical fallacy argument.

And it's not baseless unsupported conjecture, since I can prove it (again) here:

 

 

When Jesus comes back, He won't commend me on my theories and speculations, but on my readiness.

How will you be "ready" if you don't know or study Scripture.

 

Because I never said anywhere that I don't study scripture. You added that to change my intended meaning. 

And you treat that quote as if I hadn't said this, just a few sentences earlier:

"I study prophecy in Scripture to know the signs, and I lean on the Holy Spirit to lead me."

 

I noticed that this particular line you didn't respond to.  You just cut it out of your reply when you chopped up my post.  I'm guessing it was something you couldn't argue with.

 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe you didn't realize you were doing this.  Maybe instead of a literal comprehension of the post, instead of just reading the words and what they mean, try to dig deeper and find out what the poster actually meant before starting an argument. 

 

I added that verse in 1 Corinthians to remind you that knowing all things isn't the most important.  We see through a glass darkly.  That's ok.  It only requires us to daily lean on the One who can see clearly.  I've noticed that when I admit that I don't know all the answers, when I humble myself and allow myself to be teachable, that's when He shifts something in my thinking, and the gems in the Word really sparkle.

[Spock]

Take your blinders off and read what the Bible says, not what you have been told is says by Margret M. in the 1800's

I sense so many people, like yourself, upset and even somewhat angry at pre tribbers for this belief that the church will be lifted out of here before Daniel's 70th week commences. In fact,

Why be bent of shape over this?

If they are wrong, They will know they are wrong if they see some kind of peace deal made in the Middle East, and they definitely will know they are wrong if they see the abomination of desolation.

So why be angry at them? They will have enough to sort out when they realize their beliefs were amiss. That should be punishment enough for some, don't you think?

Oh, and if by chance They are right, don't forget to acknowledge this when you see them in the new Jerusalem.

[ENOCH2010]

I'm not upset with them Spock, my whole family is in that camp also. I just see the possible hurt and disappointment ahead for them and am trying to warn them, and plead with them not to try and recruit others into their camp without knowing for sure that they are correct in their doctrine.

[Spock]

I'm not upset with them Spock, my whole family is in that camp also. I just see the possible hurt and disappointment ahead for them and am trying to warn them, and plead with them not to try and recruit others into their camp without knowing for sure that they are correct in their doctrine.

If you are open to some advice, here is mine-

Put out here what you think is scripturally sound and don't get emotional with those who disagree.

You know those here who are set in their ways and who may not be. Plus, there are many lurkers who, like us, are trying to figure this out.

Your dialog with The other Enoch isn't doing you, him, me or anyone else reading this page any good. So why bother?

Just show him what you believe and where he is wrong and let it be.

I agree, many pre tribbers are very passionate about this belief and they will fight you if you try to take this away from them. It is best to just listen to what they say, and conclude by saying, "we will have to agree to disagree over this one."

Like I said, if they are wrong, they will see the error of their ways and will be forced to adjust. They won't need your pity then, but will probably need your water and food.

Be at peace my brother. No need to strive in the flesh, but rather walk in the spirit which means peace. All you could do is plant the seed anyhow. God gives the increase. Or so I've been told.

Spock out

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Sheniy, I've noticed a troubling pattern with your reply's on a number of threads.....Generalizations mainly, and Quibbling (Fallacy) over irrelevant minutia which are very tedious to read let alone reply too.

 

Be specific in the things that you say and LOGICALLY SUPPORT THEM.

 

Right here, for one.

 

Right where?  I pull out quotes so as to specifically respond to each in contention and for brevity.  You equivocate it (Fallacy) with "Chopping up" which is

 

 

Speaking of Absolute Tediousness...... (I'm not going through this with you anymore.  If you post something like this again, I will just ignore it)...

 

You said this.......When Jesus comes back, He won't commend me on my theories and speculations, but on my readiness.

 

I said this.......How will you be "ready" if you don't know or study Scripture.

 

You said this......Because I never said anywhere that I don't study scripture. You added that to change my intended meaning.

 

 

First I didn't add anything, and I never said that you said that.....I SAID IT!

 

It was a direct response to not only your 1st statement..... but your other statement concerning not needing to know the details.....which speaks to HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IF YOU DON'T STUDY SCRIPTURE.  GET IT?

 

"I study prophecy in Scripture to know the signs, and I lean on the Holy Spirit to lead me."

I noticed that this particular line you didn't respond to.  You just cut it out of your reply when you chopped up my post.  I'm guessing it was something you couldn't argue with.

 

You're right, I should've responded to it because it's a Direct Contradiction to your Previous Statements...

 

"My conclusion so far: I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen"------ so why this, if you're studying Prophecy?

 

and this....

 

"Jesus is coming back, I know that.  But the rest is purely speculative and just my opinion."-------

 

and this.....

 

"That's kinda the thing with prophecy: we won't see it coming until after it happens."-----------??

 

and this....

 

"IMHO, when it actually happens, it probably won't be what most people were expecting."

 

 

So all these statements are the result of Studying Prophecy??

 

 

 Maybe instead of a literal comprehension of the post, instead of just reading the words and what they mean, try to dig deeper and find out what the poster actually meant before starting an argument.

 

And maybe if before you start typing (or after, when you review what you have just written) Ensure that the thoughts and points are clear and you don't contradict yourself with every other statement. That will leave the reader with contemplating just your words (which is all we have on a written forum) without reaching for an abacus to try and divine what you are saying and the true meaning.