A different end times scenario to discuss

[Enoch2021]

I'm not upset with them Spock, my whole family is in that camp also. I just see the possible hurt and disappointment ahead for them and am trying to warn them, and plead with them not to try and recruit others into their camp without knowing for sure that they are correct in their doctrine.

 

 

You're trying to warn them based on......??    Is it your "Resurrections" diatribe?

 

How do you know you're correct in "you're" doctrine..... to then warn others?  Resurrections?

[Enoch2021]

 

I'm not upset with them Spock, my whole family is in that camp also. I just see the possible hurt and disappointment ahead for them and am trying to warn them, and plead with them not to try and recruit others into their camp without knowing for sure that they are correct in their doctrine.

If you are open to some advice, here is mine-

Put out here what you think is scripturally sound and don't get emotional with those who disagree.

You know those here who are set in their ways and who may not be. Plus, there are many lurkers who, like us, are trying to figure this out.

Your dialog with The other Enoch isn't doing you, him, me or anyone else reading this page any good. So why bother?

Just show him what you believe and where he is wrong and let it be.

I agree, many pre tribbers are very passionate about this belief and they will fight you if you try to take this away from them. It is best to just listen to what they say, and conclude by saying, "we will have to agree to disagree over this one."

Like I said, if they are wrong, they will see the error of their ways and will be forced to adjust. They won't need your pity then, but will probably need your water and food.

Be at peace my brother. No need to strive in the flesh, but rather walk in the spirit which means peace. All you could do is plant the seed anyhow. God gives the increase. Or so I've been told.

Spock out

 

 

 

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Put out here what you think is scripturally sound and don't get emotional with those who disagree.

 

He doesn't have any.....hence, emotional.

 

 

Just show him what you believe and where he is wrong and let it be.

 

If he hasn't stated it by now there isn't anything

 

I agree, many pre tribbers are very passionate about this belief and they will fight you if you try to take this away from them. It is best to just listen to what they say, and conclude by saying, "we will have to agree to disagree over this one."

 

Yea, they're very passionate because they can support it directly from the WORD.

 

You've highlighted a Major Dilemma here Spock.  You're "agree to disagree" This is irrelevant, you're in the wrong Genre.  We're not discussing: what our favorite color is, who's the best Football Team, what's the best Ice Cream or Running shoes.

 

It's either supported by THE WORD or it isn't.  Period, End of Story!  The LORD even spoke to this.....

 

(2 Peter 1:20) "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

 

 

Here I'll show you (for what the 70th time on these Threads?)....Post Trib is Untenable by Revelation 19 alone:  The Bride "The Church" In Heaven @ the Marriage Supper dressed in Fine Linen, Clean and White and follows Christ @ HIS SECOND COMING.

 

What's your OPINION? 

 

See the Two-Edged Sword Spock?

 

The only way to dispute this CLEAR OBVIOUS READING is to Change the WORD (SEE Warning below).

 

ps. WARNING >>>>>

 

(Revelation 22:18-19) "¶For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:  {19} And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

[Spock]

Enoch2010 (watch me)

 

Enoch2120,

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.  (I won't be upset if you are right.)

[Enoch2021]

Enoch2010 (watch me)

 

Enoch2120,

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.  (I won't be upset if you are right.)

 

 

 

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Agree to Disagree..... on what Specifically?

 

(I won't be upset if you are right.)

 

I don't have anything much to do with it......What does GOD'S WORD say?

[Spock]

Agree to disagree on the timing of the rapture.

You say pre trib, Argosy says post trib; Thunder says shortly after abomination of desolation; and I say there are two raptures.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the basis for both Thunder and my (main) rapture and also for Argosy, but the latter draws a different conclusion than we do.

You don't see a rapture in that passage, instead you see Jewish only.

So, it seems like an impasse to me. Who is right?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Enoch2021]

Agree to disagree on the timing of the rapture.

You say pre trib, Argosy says post trib; Thunder says shortly after abomination of desolation; and I say there are two raptures.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the basis for both Thunder and my (main) rapture and also for Argosy, but the latter draws a different conclusion than we do.

You don't see a rapture in that passage, instead you see Jewish only.

So, it seems like an impasse to me. Who is right?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

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You mean the "a priori" adherence is in the eye of the beholder.

 

So The Rapture regarding "The Church" is in a Book that was written before the "Church" was revealed?

 

Is that like the Space Shuttle giving Birth to the Space Shuttle Assembly Plant?

 

 

If you think 1 + 1 = 37.682 ....... the have @ it then.

 

Auf Weidersein

[ENOCH2010]

Enoch 2021 which resurrection is the church raptured with, and please show the scripture that describes it.

[Sheniy]

 

Maybe instead of a literal comprehension of the post, instead of just reading the words and what they mean, try to dig deeper and find out what the poster actually meant before starting an argument.

 

And maybe if before you start typing (or after, when you review what you have just written) Ensure that the thoughts and points are clear and you don't contradict yourself with every other statement. That will leave the reader with contemplating just your words (which is all we have on a written forum) without reaching for an abacus to try and divine what you are saying and the true meaning.

 

 

 

My posts are perfectly clear, Enoch.  As I have shown, you take things out of context.  Either you don't understand what I say, or you don't want to.  I tried to explain, but you don't want to hear it.

 

Most people have learned to look beyond "just the words" of any text to find the author's meaning in context.  This is vital especially when reading the bible.  In fact, a reader would have to do this when reading most of your posts, which are usually full of colorful metaphors and things which wouldn't make sense in a literal reading.  Picking a sentence or phrase and reading "just the words" is just going to lead to unnecessary misunderstandings.

 

This all started because I said I don't want to debate you.  This is why I don't want to debate you.   Let's get back on topic.

[Atwood]

Well, live long and prosper. How was it like to take refuge in McCoy's body?

Let's look at a little of your lengthy presentation. You have apparently done a lot of thought and come up with some ideas. We Christians have things figured out differently from each other on eschatology; so I don't think heresy is in question.

Let's start at the first of it:

Spock spoke: "1. First Fruits Rapture/harvest of the FAITHFUL CHURCH ONLY (think promise to the Church of Philadelphia) -because these believers are watchful, alert, and living for God, not for self or the world, they will be kept from the hour of testing. These are the people who take Luke 21:36 seriously: "Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man." (I believe ALL these things means all - the entire 70th week, which includes the frightful Seals too.)"

A) Do you have proof that the Bible calls the Rapture "harvest"? I can't think of such a passage. I think of eschatological harvest as severe judgment; like cutting with a sharp sickle.

B) The Church of Philadelphia is told "Because you kept the word of my patience, " -- I don't find "because watchful, alert, and living for God, not for self or the world." How can you add all that in?

C) The Church of Philadelphia would be primarily all the Christians in the city of Philadelphia plus possible some in the surrounding area. Now how would it be possible that every member of a city church would be "watchful, alert, and living for God, not for self or the world"? Has there ever been such a city where in it no Christians were carnal? If there were a partial rapture, how could that include a whole city of Christians?

D) Where does this passage say that anyone is left out of the exclusion from the Hour of Testing?

E) Is not salvation by grace? Is not the Rapture an integral part of salvation? Do you postulate salvation by works here?

F) Luke 21 is the Olivet Discourse. Where do you find any church in that Discourse. Do you see anyone being caught up to a meeting with the Lord in the air in the Olivet Discourse?

G) Where does scripture speak of any Christian not going up at the Rapture? When it says in 1 Thessalonians 4 "we shall be caught up" (= raptured), who is the "we"? The text says,

"we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. "

The we who is rapture is clearly defined:

"WE who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord,

"WE who are alive, who are left, shall TOGETHER with them"

"so WE shall ever be with the Lord."

This WE = those who are left (it must include carnal Christians, since they certainly are left, along with spiritual Christians).

How do you explain the TOGETHER. How can we all be together if there is a partial rapture?

Edited April 11, 2014 by Atwood

[Enoch2021]

F) Luke 21 is the Olivet Discourse.

 

 

Hey Atwood, just skimmed through your post....sorry, long day.  Just for correction, Luke 21 is not the Olivet Discourse.

 

Luke's account is in the Temple during the day apparently between Jesus all the Disciples and followers....

(Luke 21:5-6) "And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,  {6}  As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

(Luke 21:9-12)

{9} "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 

{10} Then said he unto them,  Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

{11} And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 

{12} BUT BEFORE ALL THESE, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake."

 

Matthew's account is a private meeting on the Mount of Olives @ Night between: Jesus, Peter, James, John, and Andrew.

(Matthew 24:6-9)

{6}"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

{7}  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 

{8}  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

{9} THEN SHALL THEY deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

 

 

Luke's Account is referring to the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. 

 

Matthew's Account is referring to the End of Days.

 

 

Neither will speak of "The Church" because the Mystery of the "The Church" wasn't REVEALED UNTIL PAUL REVEALED IT....

 

(Ephesians 3:4-6) "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)  {5} Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;  {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

 

(Colossians 1:26-27) "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  {27} To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

 

 

Hope it helps