Post Tribbers - Please explain

[Montana Marv]

Maybe where I live.  Closest traffic light is 55 miles away.  Be leery, we do get down to 40 degrees below zero F some days during winter.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Spock]

Maybe where I live.  Closest traffic light is 55 miles away.  Be leery, we do get down to 40 degrees below zero F some days during winter.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

I will make sure not to visit you in the winter. Thanks for the heads up.

55 miles away, closest traffic light. Wow! What do you drive? Pick up truck or horse?

[rollinTHUNDER]

Here also is where some do not take Scripture at its full meaning;  1 Thes 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.  This verse is present tense.  It was just as meaningful for the Believers in the 1st Century and in year 1000 as in year 1500 as in year 2014.  Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's Wrath through Him.  This verse is also present tense.  The Wrath which we have been appointed not to receive is the Lake of Fire,  not the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

I disagree. His wrath is furious anger or vengeance as in the days of the flood or the coming Day of the Lord, but the lake of fire is hell, a place of torment and punishment.

Cheers

[OneLight]

One light,

If I may respond to your last post....

Sure it is fine. This is a discussion forum where everyone can respond.

You said:

Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days. If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to? We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words.

Spock:

I agree the gathering (rapture) has to take place in the great tribulation AFTER the abomination of desolation.i believe matts chart showed the rapture in the GT. I know Matt believes the rapture is in the GT too.

2 Thess 2 even said the gathering takes place AFTER the departure and the man of sin is revealed (abomination of desolation) so,I believe this lines up.

Personally, I would not correlate the last trump in 1 Cor 15 with the last trump in revelation (trumpets). I think many threads have discussed the basis for why it is believed to be an error to do so, so I won't be redundant here. However, think 100 Feast of Trumpets shofar blasts.

Yes, there have been many who have posted why they don't believe this is the same trumpet, but I was not convinced in their theory. Though some contribute the timing of the last days in accordance to the Jewish Holidays, scripture never refers back to any feast during this time, but scripture does speak about the 7 trumpets in Revelation

Lastly, Matt and I both believe the church has been promised to be delivered from the wrath of God. We both believe the day of The Lord begins God's wrath. We see this wrath commencing sometime in the great trib beginning with the trumpet judgments.

We follow the revelation timeline:

1. Seals in first half of Daniel week

2. Abomination at midpoint

3. Great trib and God's wrath in the second half of Daniels week

4. Rapture sometime in second half of the week, after sixth seal. After the sealing of the 144,000 in Rev 7, you have what we believe is the rapture, rev 7:12. What follows this? Trumpet judgments-God's wrath.

I agree that the saints are not going to feel the wrath of God. We read this in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ". I continue to use the argument that God did not remove the Hebrews in Egypt, but saved them from the plagues. God did not remove Noah and his family during the flood, but gave them a way through the flood. I also believe that those who are His during the three fold events of seven will be protected as He pours out the judgments of each event.

Bottom line: Matthew 24;29 says, "after the tribulation (seal judgments), the sky would reveal signs that will mark his gathering and the rapture of the church that is still here. (I believe faithful church Raptured previously.)

I think you agree on most parts, but not sure where you put the timing of the rapture. It sounds like you are still open to this.

Feel free to disagree with me or ask me any questions.

Spock

Matthew 24 describes what will happen before His return, calling all of the events the tribulation. Jesus does not discuss any difference between the tribulation and the great tribulation in Matthew 24.

I have learned not to try to determine where the rapture falls in a timeline, only where it will not.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days. If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to? We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words.

 

Matthew speaks nothing of "The Church" in these Passages; In Fact, he speaks nothing about them in the entire Olivet Discourse.  The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church".

 

 

I agree the gathering (rapture) has to take place in the great tribulation AFTER the abomination of desolation.i believe matts chart showed the rapture in the GT. I know Matt believes the rapture is in the GT too.

 

Yes, and you Violate a Ton of Scriptures and the Doctrine of Imminence in doing so.  Cursory readers of Daniel and Revelation can now pull their Calendars out and Set their Watches for the Second Coming of Christ (Just 2 of over 30)......

 

(Matthew 24:36) "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," 

 

GOD'S Wrath Clearly starts with loosing the Seals in Chapter 6 (SEE: below).

 

 

2 Thess 2 even said the gathering takes place AFTER the departure and the man of sin is revealed (abomination of desolation) so,I believe this lines up

 

This is Wrong on so many levels. Instead of lining up it runs contrary and orthogonal to Scripture

 

First, You're ignoring the details of 2 Thess 2:3-9.

 

Your "After The Departure" should say After the "Restrainer" is Removed.   Restrainer isn't going anywhere without "The Church" when "he's" the Embodiment of it.

 

"That Wicked" is revealed Post "Restrainer" Removed Then Confirming the Covenant.  Unless you subscribe to him making a "Secret Covenant" or via ESP.  It's hard to believe, since he is also known as "Mister Big Mouth" in quite a number of Scriptures.  Confirming this Covenant is most likely a "Major Reason" people follow him.

 

Personally, I would not correlate the last trump in 1 Cor 15 with the last trump in revelation (trumpets). I think many threads have discussed the basis for why it is believed to be an error to do so, so I won't be redundant here.

 

I'll go ahead and respond to cover all bases and Complete the Record....

 

(1 Corinthians 15:52) "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

 

and is Fallaciously associated with....

 

(Revelation 11:15) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

 

BUT!!....

 

The Rapture Trump is Trump of GOD, not the 7th Angel Trumpet:

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

 

Lastly, Matt and I both believe the church has been promised to be delivered from the wrath of God. We both believe the day of The Lord begins God's wrath. We see this wrath commencing sometime in the great trib beginning with the trumpet judgments.

 

You've just contradicted yourself with your above conjecture of......."the (rapture) has to take place in the great tribulation AFTER the abomination of desolation."

 

Great Tribulation = God's Wrath

 

How can "The Church" be "in" The Great Tribulation receiving GOD'S Wrath and @ the Same Time be "Delivered Out" and Not Receiving GOD'S Wrath?? 

 

We follow the revelation timeline:

1. Seals in first half of Daniel week

2. Abomination at midpoint

3. Great trib and God's wrath in the second half of Daniels week

4. Rapture sometime in second half of the week, after sixth seal. After the sealing of the 144,000 in Rev 7, you have what we believe is the rapture, rev 7:12. What follows this? Trumpet judgments-God's wrath.

 

1. The First 4 Seals (The Four Horseman) pretty conclusively line up with "Beginning of Sorrows" mentioned in (Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:10-11, Mark 13: 8).  Who are the Seals and Four Horseman Sourced From? .......GOD.  Just because this is the "Beginning of Sorrows" doesn't preclude or negate the fact that this is GOD'S WRATH.  All the Seals opening in Rev Chapter 6 look like WRATH to me; in fact, it even say's so....

 

(Revelation 6:16) "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

 

What Wrath are they talking about?  Well the Wrath they were just exposed to.....to make them hide in caves.

 

2. looks good 

 

3.  GOD'S Wrath is clearly being poured out Beginning with The Seals Opening  (See Above).  Are you saying the Great Tribulation starts with the Seals in Chapter 6?

 

4.  Rapture can't be after The Abomination of Desolation (See: above).  Rapture is in Rev 7:12?? ......(Revelation 7:12) "Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen."

 

You must mean these.... (Revelation 7:9) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

 

Those are called "Tribulation Saints" and are not "The Church".  Because they just came out of Great Tribulation.....

 

(Revelation 7:13-14) "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

"The Church" is promised not to receive GOD'S Wrath.  But they :rolleyes:   were just brought "Out Of" Wrath.  Conundrum!

 

Who are the 24 Elders??

 

 

rev 7:12. What follows this? Trumpet judgments-God's wrath.

 

Not exactly.  To be precise, the 7th Seal has yet to be opened.....

 

(Revelation 8:1) "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

 

And GOD'S Wrath Clearly started with the Opening of the Seals.  (See: above)

 

Bottom line: Matthew 24;29 says, "after the tribulation (seal judgments)

 

Woe there Spock....you added "Seal Judgements":  You probably just assumed that based on the "Moon shall not give her light", Right??

 

(Matthew 24:29) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

 

Here's your Problem....

 

(Revelation 6:12) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"

 

See the Difference??  It's a Biggie....for your thesis.  "Moon as Blood" is in the Beginning (6th Seal).

 

 

Matthew Account is after; in fact, the only place I can find the moon not giving her light and no need for it is....

 

(Revelation 21:23) "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

 

 

Moreover, with the "Sun shall be darkened"....you still have:

 

(Revelation 16:8) "And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire."

 

Still burning Bright.   And....

 

(Revelation 19:17) "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;"

 

How could the angel be standing in something that's darkened?  Moreover, how would John know the angel was standing in it....and that it WAS the sun if it was Darkened?

 

 

the sky would reveal signs that will mark his gathering and the rapture of the church that is still here.

 

Where in Scripture is "The Rapture" juxtaposed with "signs" in the sky?

[OneLight]

Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days. If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to? We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words.

 

Matthew speaks nothing of "The Church" in these Passages; In Fact, he speaks nothing about them in the entire Olivet Discourse.  The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church".

I would like for you to show me where I even mentioned the church in my using Matthew 24.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days. If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to? We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words.

 

Matthew speaks nothing of "The Church" in these Passages; In Fact, he speaks nothing about them in the entire Olivet Discourse.  The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church".

 

I would like for you to show me where I even mentioned the church in my using Matthew 24.

 

 

 

==================================================================================

 

 

Technically you didn't but it appears you were implying it here in Bold (Message #95)......

 

Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days.  If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to?  We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words.

 

Matthew 24-23-28

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.

 

“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

 

Why would Christ warn His children if they will no longer be around during this time?

 

 

If you weren't implying that..... then my mistake.

[OneLight]

Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days. If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to? We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words.

 

Matthew speaks nothing of "The Church" in these Passages; In Fact, he speaks nothing about them in the entire Olivet Discourse.  The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church".

I would like for you to show me where I even mentioned the church in my using Matthew 24.

 

 

==================================================================================

 

 

Technically you didn't but it appears you were implying it here in Bold (Message #95)......

 

Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days.  If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to?  We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words.

 

Matthew 24-23-28

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.

 

“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

 

Why would Christ warn His children if they will no longer be around during this time?

 

 

If you weren't implying that..... then my mistake.

I don't like to use the term "church" that much due to the misconception that wold mean everyone who belongs to a denomination. If you meant the body of Christ, yes, this is what I meant.

Care to explain when this happened in the first century?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Spock]

Enoch,

I Enjoyed reading your rebuttal. You put a big smile on my face. I've missed you all day here too. Happy Resurrection Sunday by the way.

I'm not in any mood to respond, maybe tomorrow, but it looks like we interpret and see things differently on many levels.

Shalom my brother

Spock out

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days. If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to? We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words.

 

Matthew speaks nothing of "The Church" in these Passages; In Fact, he speaks nothing about them in the entire Olivet Discourse.  The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church".

 

I would like for you to show me where I even mentioned the church in my using Matthew 24.

 

 

 

==================================================================================

 

 

Technically you didn't but it appears you were implying it here in Bold (Message #95)......

 

Matthew 24 has a vast array of what will happen before we are taken and His return, but notice, that even in the Great Tribulation, Jesus is saying that they, His followers, should not be deceived during those days.  If they are removed, who is Jesus referring to?  We can see His believers still around during the Great Tribulation by His own words.

 

Matthew 24-23-28

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.

 

“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

 

Why would Christ warn His children if they will no longer be around during this time?

 

 

If you weren't implying that..... then my mistake.

 

I don't like to use the term "church" that much due to the misconception that wold mean everyone who belongs to a denomination. If you meant the body of Christ, yes, this is what I meant.

Care to explain when this happened in the first century?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

 

 

==================================================================================

 

If you meant the body of Christ, yes, this is what I meant.

 

Yes "The Church" = Body of Christ (Born Again Christians)

 

 

Care to explain when this happened in the first century?

 

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

 

It didn't, it happens Immediately after Tribulation.