ENOCH2010 Posted April 22, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Enoch 2021, ( to use a boxing term ) You didn't lay a glove on any point that Matt36 made, you only show that you are unwilling to see the error of your doctrine. If you are going to use Rev. 22 v 18-19 as a threat to someone you better be sure your doctrine can stand the same judgement. The Bible plainly says the first resurrection happens at the Lords second coming, but the pre-tribbers add a resurrection before the tribulation starts so the rapture can happen pre-trib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted April 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Matt, Good stuff. I like how you pressed hard for specific scripture that shows the rapture, and not just fancy doctrines and passages that allude to the rapture. I completely agree with you -Revelation 7 is the death blow to the pre tribbers in my mind (obviously not to them). I know they see that multitude as trib saints, saints saved after the church is removed, but if I can be frank here without stepping on toes, I find that interpretation to be comical. Say what? I believe they contrived that to keep their hope alive for an early departure. Well, they still may get their wish if I am right about a secret rapture, but the general harvest/rapture sure looks to me to be right there in Rev 7. However, keep your mind open to a "thief in the night" rapture for the FAITHFUL CHURCH ONLY which is a pre trib rapture. Don't forget to visit my thread in which I made a case for such. I'm not saying I'm right, and chances are, since few people believe it, I'm probably wrong, but as the saying goes........you never know. Spock out mate ===================================================================== Good stuff. Because it lines up with your Unsupported Pre-Conceived Bias? I like how you pressed hard for specific scripture that shows the rapture, and not just fancy doctrines and passages that allude to the rapture. "Pressed Hard" lol. Let me press you......Please show 1 Scripture that shows anything other than a Pre-Trib Rapture. Fancy Doctrines, eh? You mean The Doctrine of Imminence? That's about as "fancy" as 1 + 1 = 2 I completely agree with you -Revelation 7 is the death blow to the pre tribbers in my mind (obviously not to them). I know they see that multitude as trib saints, saints saved after the church is removed, but if I can be frank here without stepping on toes, I find that interpretation to be comical. The only "Death Blow" is to Pedestrian Exegesis. Comical, eh? Back to color commentary and little else I see. Let's take a look @ a "TYPE". Why should we do that? Well..... (1 Corinthians 10:11) "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." Ensamples = tupos: image, representation, pattern, Type (prototype). An understanding of a Jewish Wedding (Jesus and HIS Bride "The Church") should be reckoned with here, IMHO..... The Ketubah, Betrothal - Payment of the Purchase Price - Bride Set Apart (Sanctified) - Bridegroom departs to Father's House - Prepares a Room Addition ** Bride Prepares for IMMINENT Return (But She does not know WHEN) - Surprise Gathering - Grooms arrival is Proceeded by a SHOUT/Trump - Wedding - 7 Day Marriage Supper What's that Look Like?? :rolleyes: A Model or "TYPE", Maybe ?? Here's Your Model Spock: Payment of the Purchase Price; Bride Sanctified; Groom Departs to Father's House; Prepares a Room Addition I'm gonna beat the Living Daylights out of You: (Sends: The Four Horseman, Famines/Plagues, Great Earthquake et al) then................................ lets get Married and have Dinner!! :huh: So what you're saying is: that The Room Addition Christ speaks of and is Preparing in John 14:2....... is an Infirmary? I believe they contrived that to keep their hope alive for an early departure. You've identified the problem with....... "I believe". What is the Goal of Great Tribulation? What is GOD'S Purpose in pouring out HIS Wrath (Scripture Compromise Alert) on Born Again Christians/ "The Church"/ "Christ's Virgin Bride"? To Repent or Believe More? However, keep your mind open to a "thief in the night" rapture Absolutely Unbelievable..... The "thief in the night" (Simile) is Paul describing what Christ's Second Coming would be like to........................."unbelievers" (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4) "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. {3} For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. {4} But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." See the Compare and Contrast? The "they" are the "unbelievers". The "But ye, brethren" are the Thessalonians. It's gonna come on the "unbelievers" like a thief in the night, because......they are not following Christ or Watching or Studying The WORD!! ps. this is speaking to the Second Coming not "The Rapture". the FAITHFUL CHURCH ONLY Is there another Kind? This is opposed to an "UNFAITHFUL CHURCH", Right? Would Christ Rapture a "Harlot Church"?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted April 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Enoch 2021, ( to use a boxing term ) You didn't lay a glove on any point that Matt36 made, you only show that you are unwilling to see the error of your doctrine. If you are going to use Rev. 22 v 18-19 as a threat to someone you better be sure your doctrine can stand the same judgement. The Bible plainly says the first resurrection happens at the Lords second coming, but the pre-tribbers add a resurrection before the tribulation starts so the rapture can happen pre-trib. =================================================================== Enoch 2021, ( to use a boxing term ) You didn't lay a glove on any point that Matt36 made, I actually didn't have to, The Ring and Stadium Imploded before I arrived....mine was just clean up. If you are going to use Rev. 22 v 18-19 as a threat to someone you better be sure your doctrine can stand the same judgement. It can....and I didn't add or subtract anything from THE WORD. As opposed to what He CLEARLY Did.......It wasn't a Threat it was an Admonition; that I am required to provide.... (2 Timothy 4:2-4) "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. {3} For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; {4} And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." and..... (2 Timothy 3:16) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" The Bible plainly says the first resurrection happens....... I'm not writing another/the same refutation of this again......Please review previous posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted April 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted April 22, 2014 =============================================================================== Ive noticed in some of the past posts that there was some discussion about the book of Matthew and whether it pertained to the Jews or not. Well that was Me All Scripture pertains to anyone that will be moved by the Holy Spirit to read it. My contention is that Matthew's "Target Audience" specifically for the Olivet Discourse is for the Jews (Which it is) and Generally it is "Heavily Jewish" by just a cursory review of the Book. Where and what did Christ focus his warning after mentioning the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew.... (Matthew 24:15-20) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) {16} Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {17} Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: {18} Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. {19} And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! {20} But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:" First: The Abomination of Desolation can only happen in One Place: Temple in Jerusalem. And if we go to Daniel 9:27 specifically it says he will cause the Sacrifice and Oblation to Cease. Do Born Again Christians "The Church" Sacrifice or Oblate (Jew or Gentile)?? Where: Judea. Not Rome, Egypt, Babylon, New York, Paris ect. Where do Jews socialize relax in Jerusalem? On The Rooftops....the Bedrooms are downstairs. Winter Time: Roads are plenty slippery and occasionally impassable in Judea in the Winter (Logistics Problem with Fleeing to Mountains) and Give Suck: With Small Children/Pregnant (Logistics Problem) Who: Israel Sabbath Day: Does "The Church" observe The Sabbath Day? errrr, minus Seventh Day Adventists? Follow? Matthew is the ONLY GOSPEL that refers to the church. Matt16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Yes that's True. However; was the "nature" of "The Church" discussed..... as in "Members" as in Gentiles being part of it? Or was and did CHRIST ONLY mention the name "Church"? To the Apostles @ that time....what and who would "The Church" mean? Then your question would be....How are we to know, Right? Well.... If they (other than Christ) Including Matthew knew the "Mystery" of "The Church" @ that time; then by Proxy, you're calling Paul a Liar..... (Ephesians 3:3-8) "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, {4} Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) {5} Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: {7} Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. {8} Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;" Anything else? Even the great commission given to the church is only mentioned in Matthew Are you sure??..... (Mark 16:15) "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." The context or preceding verse.... (Mark 16:14) "Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen." @ that time, he was directly addressing the Apostles........WHICH, then "would become" The Church. *** This Great Commission was only given to The Apostles in Matthew's Account also...... (Matthew 28:16-19) "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. {17} And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. {18} And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. {19} Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" As we "Know Now" This is for us "The Church" also. Jesus speaks of the end of the Church age Matt28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. This speaks to the End of the World...."Church age" is something you just added. Can you show me the "Specific Reference" to "The Church" in this Passage? You actually could have said end of "anything" age in your statement and been correct, since it says the End of The World..... Jesus speaks to the end of the __________ <----------fill in the blank with just about anything) "age". Because Jesus states the End of The World in this passage. And there are many other examples. Hopefully (for your case) there better than the Ones you just provided. The reason many try to say Matthew was written to the jews was because of Matt 24 where Jesus speaks of a post tribulation rapture preceding the Day of the Lord. But Luke 21 does the exact same thing. Both talk about the end of the church age as well. Matthew doesn't speak to the "The Church" (See: above) or Rapture @ all......Please show me where "Harpazo" is in Matthew?? Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are the same, eh? Please pay attention to detail with The WORD..... Luke's Account is in the Temple during the Day apparently between Jesus all the Disciples and followers.... (Luke 21:5-6) "And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, {6} As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Luke 21:9-12) "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. {10} Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: {11} And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. {12} BUT BEFORE ALL THESE, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake." Matthew's Account (Olivet Discourse) is a Private Meeting on the Mount of Olives @ Night between: Jesus, Peter, James, John, and Andrew. (Matthew 24:7-9) "{7} For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. {8} All these are the beginning of sorrows. {9} THEN SHALL THEY deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." The same signs are stated in both accounts; However, after mentioning the same signs, Luke says "Before all these"; Matthew says "Then shall they".... After. Luke's Account............ Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Matthew's Account...... End of Days. Moreover, The Pivotal/Key Event in the Olivet Discourse is the Abomination of Desolation....Please show The Abomination of Desolation in Luke?? Luke was not written to the jews alone. Strawman (Fallacy). Nobody said either account was written to Anyone "alone". If you think about it, to have a gospel book that is written to the jews and therefore irrelevant to the church Another Strawman (Fallacy). Nobody said it was "Irrelevant" to "The Church". I believe the book of matthew while written to the church is for both jew and gentile with a gentile perspective. You've Identified the Problem....."I believe". If you start out with "I can Prove" or "Scripture Clearly Shows" or "Scripture tells us"..... then that forces you to Support what you say. In Retrospect, All of Scripture is written for anyone whom the Holy Spirit moves to read and understand it and Transcends The Time it was written and the people who penned the Books. My contention is just that "The Mystery of The Church" was not revealed by Christ to the Apostles @ that time and simply supported by Paul in Ephesians 3. The True Church wasn't even Born Until Pentecost (See: Acts 2 and following)....what event does Matthew's Gospel end with? Mark? Luke? John? What event @ Pentecost marked the beginning of "The Church Age" ?? Where was Jesus when this "event" Occurred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted April 22, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted April 22, 2014 No one is as blind as one who refuses to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted April 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Oh, Got another surprise for those who pretend that 2 Thess 2: 4-12 doesn't exist. (2 Thessalonians 2:3) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" Falling Away = Apostasia Source: http://www.bibleprophesy.org/apostasia.htm (It's Quite Comprehensive, just a taste): Apostasia (greek) Summary of the ways in which Apostasia signifies Rapture in 2 Thess 2. 1. The parallel between verse 3 and 7-8, showing the antichrist is revealed after the rapture. 2. Words With Similar Definitions: methormizô, remove from one anchorage to another 3. Words With Similar Definitions: metex-anistamai, Pass., move from one place to another 4. Apostasia is translated as "Dissecto" in Latin, which has a meaning of a "spacial departure". 5. Apostasia is translated as "departure" in many Bibles. 6 . Liddell and Scott Dictionary authors note Apostasia is translated as "spacial departure" in one case in the 6th century. 7. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to fall away" 8. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to depart" 9. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both signify "change" as the rapture is a change. 10. metathesis, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both (in the word it's derrived from, aphistemi) can both mean "to remove". 11. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo (rapture in 1 Thess 4:17), can both mean "to take" 12. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to seize" 13. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to snatch away" 14. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, also carries the meaning "to marry, take a wife" which is a strong rapture parallel 15. Apostasia and harpazo both carry connotations of violence. Apostaisia a violent revolt & rebellion, and harpazo "to seize by force" John 6:15 16 .Harpazo, like metathesis and aphistemi--root of apostasia, mean "to remove" 17. Harpazo is used in a peculiar way to signify "falling away from the faith" in Matthew 13:19, which is the main definition of apostasia. 18. The play on words of "stand in, present" enistemi and "stand off, absent" aphistemi, shows that apostasia, which comes from aphistemi, signifies the rapture, when people will be "absent". 19. ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, means "be married to" and the rapture is the marriage. 20. ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, means "to arise" and the rapture is when we rise up. 21. ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, signifies "of miracles" and the rapture will be a miracle. 22. Apostasia, as rapture, is fully consistent with apostasia as religious rebellion, and it is not an either/or definition or option, the word means both. 23. Those who say the pre trib rapture is false doctrine (an apostasy) unwittingly confirm that apostasia signifies rapture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted April 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 22, 2014 Enoch, Just scripture baby, no doctrines, no fancy footwork, no end a rounds, just God's word, baby: You want the rapture, you got it. Open your eyes and let the word come in. The truth will set you free my brother. Rev 7 9After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!” 13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat. 17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ Matthew 24 29“Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’b 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Now, after slowly reading these two passages, repeat after me... "I Enoch 2120, do solemnly refute......this recent doctrine concocted from some mixed up Scottish gal......known as the pre tribulation rapture.......and from now on......I promise to only let ........the word of God rule in my thinking........and not some clever doctrine........made up to confuse. Spock, having fun and making merry, out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted April 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted April 22, 2014 ==================================================================================== That is too funny Spock. It appears you've identified and have thoroughly nailed down "The Tribulation Saints" Who's the Scottish Gal? Here, you take a shot. The 24 Elders.... The 24 Elders are Representatives of The Church. And if that's the Case (and it is as I will show below ), then The Rapture is well before The Great Tribulation because they are in Heaven when John Arrives in Chapter 4. Lets Identify these 24 Elders, First: - Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10) - only three are Identified in all of Scripture as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US ) - They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll; in fact, they are already in Heaven when John arrives. - Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed Bear in mind, The Royal Line (Judah) and The Priesthood (Levites) were to be kept separate as noted throughout the OT. The Church appears to have no such restriction.... A Closer Look: Peter says: (1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" Royal Priesthood: Kings and Priests John in Revelation says: (Revelation 1:5-6) "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." John is including himself in this group of Kings and Priests with "us". Who else is John including in the "us"?? The ones that are washed from our sins in HIS Blood....."The Church" (Born Again Christians). Hmmm, any more clues? (Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." The 24 Elders Sang a New Song: Song of The Redeemed. Hast Redeemed "us"....How? By The Blood. From where? Out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation = "The Church" Has made "us" what?: Kings and Priests. Who the 24 Elders Can't Be, (Characteristics): Tribulation Saints 24 Elders * Not Crowned *Crowned, casts them on the Glassy Sea (Rev 4:10) * Palms in Hands *Harps, No Palms *Saved "out of" Great Tribulation * Kept "out of" Great Tribulation (Rev 3:10) * Stand Before Thrones * Sit on Thrones (Rev 4:4) * Serve HIM Night and Day * Reign as Kings and Priests (1 Cor 6:2-3, Rev 5:10) Tribulation Saints were not recognized by John and he asked who they were (Rev 7:14). Who answered? One of the Elders. John never asks who the 24 Elders are..... Why should he, he knows who they are Can't be The Martyrs because they are "under" The Alter and were slain. 24 Elders Sit on Thrones, not "slain". Can't be Angels.... (Revelation 7:11) "And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God," All the Angels stood round about the Throne...and who else? The 24 Elders. Clear Distinction. We are running out of contenders @ Light Speed. Can't be the 144,000, Obviously. Now repeat after me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted April 22, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 22, 2014 Spock Here is a quote from above: they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat. 17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd. This is future tense, as that they are not there yet. But we as NT Believers can now say He is our Shepherd. Do you see the point, Our present stance in Christ is set. These others stance in Christ is not yet confirmed. So these who have come out of the GT are not the Church/Bride of Christ. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt36 Posted April 23, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 23, 2014 Enoch. my are words in Blue. Enoch, please take care and read slowly and properly my answers. I get the feeling that what i say to you doesnt sink in and im not trying to be mean by saying that bro. ============================================================================================= Well you know i beleive that is Michael. Ive shown you scripture to why i think that. Dan 12:1. Do you have any scripture to show that this is the Holy Spirit? Because i dont know of any and i see it as a church guess that its the Holy Spirit. Key Phrase "I believe". You have shown nothing concerning Michael and The Church. All you have shown is Michael in reference to Daniels People-----Israel. As I have mentioned on this thread @ least 5 times. Only "GOD" (The Holy Spirit) "restrains" satan. Scripture Support......see Book of JOB OK, so i guess we can take this subject up again as you have mentioned it again. Just be aware that im only discussing this and i and not looking for a fight nor to get personal. The whole reason i am here actually is to hone my personal doctrinal beliefs by letting them go through the scrutiny of you guys. Im open to change most things i believe if it can be shown from scripture i am incorrect and i have done that for most of my christian life and thats why im not longer a pre triber The bone of contention: Dan12 :1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Now in the other thread you said that this verse didnt even apply to the end times. But clearly it does...."and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" More than that, Dan 12:1 has its chronological order correct in that we have, 1. The angel stands up in the end days during the time of Jacobs trouble. 2 thess2: 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. The context of thess is jacobs trouble shown here, 2 thess2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ....7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. So we clearly see that the restrainer is NOT taken away untill AFTER the man of sin is revealed which happens mid point in the trib. 2. "and at that time thy people shall be delivered," and so they are during Jacobs trouble. 3. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Day of judgement, happens at the end of the Day of the Lord. We also see that Dan says this is for the time of the end.....But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. This verse in Dan is speaking to both jews and gentiles. When speaking about the jews he says "and at that time thy people shall be delivered" and then all as a whole including gentiles, he says, "every one that shall be found written in the book." So your claim to be speaking about only Jews is only half right. You also said in the other thread that Michael is a warrior and a commander. I dont disagree and fail to see how this affects my interpretation. You said that the restrainer restrains satan, I also agree. But what is satan doing during the tribulation? Rev 12:12 Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. One would think he would need restraining at one point, especially Rev 12:7 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Here is the original text and nowhere does its say the Elders were redeemed but rather "men" were redeemed, It says it right here.... (Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." No, again your english translation is incorrect. Ill explain it again and ill try to be a little clearer as i wasnt that clear last time. here is the proper text: Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song , saying, “ Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every language, people, and nation. (Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament) The word FOR that is in bold in the verse the greek word is Ho. The english translation has it as "us" but that is incorrect. Here is the meaning of "Ho", ὁ δέ," the one ... the other, some ... others, but he, but others". Now-where in the greek does it mean "US". Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed--------- Yes it does begin here but to be specific it begins at the signing of the covenant between Israel and many which i believe is a little beforehand. So you're saying the Tribulation begins @ the Confirming of The Covenant? But Christ said.... (Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) {16} Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {17} Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: {18} Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. {19} And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! {20} But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: {21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." See that "For then shall be" right next to "great tribulation"?? What did Daniel Say?....... (Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." The "Tribulation" is a Misnomer, there is only "Great Tribulation" spoken of by Jesus Himself. And when does this Happen? In "The Midst" of that 7 Year Period. These are commentaries and speculators adding their spin to the text...as in 7 years of "Tribulation". Adding "Tribulation" arbitrarily to the first 3 1/2 years/prior to the Abomination of Desolation. Please show ONE Scripture saying that the first 3 1/2 years is just plain "Tribulation"? So your Conjecture that "Tribulation" begins with the "signing of the Covenant" is in Direct Conflict and obfuscates what Jesus Himself said and Daniel 9:27. Care to reconsider? ps. Who said the ac "Signs" anything?? Correct: he might not sign anything. I guess i was just referring to an agreement with many. Im not sure what to say here Enoch except to say you just backed up my comments 100% that the tribulation starts with the ac making an agreement with Israel and many! So if the ac confirms a covenant for 7 years isnt this the beginning of the 7th week? I mean its 7 years right? Therefore this event MUST take place at the very beginning before the seals start. How else you you fit 7 years into 7 years? In the midst of that week he, "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" according to Rev, but then in Matt 24: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place," So what Rev and Matt are saying here is that there is an agreement made between Israel and many for one week. The anti christ is revealed in the midst of that week which is mentioned here, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation" Now this is the part where we differ. Matt24:16-21 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The context of the timing of these verses are after the anti christ is revealed and we know from Dan 9:27 that its in the midst of the week that therefore these events are AFTER the mid point of the tribulation. These verses DO NOT allude to a rapture but rather it is talking to Israel to flee into the mountains because great tribulation is about to start. So since these events take place after the mid point we should be able to find these events in Revelation, and indeed we do: Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. So your versus just prove my case and your verses also self interpret that they are not rapture verses. However i have here a scripture which is as clear as day that the rapture takes place during the tribulation and there are many, but ill quote just this one, Rev 7 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; You've got absolutely ZERO Scripture for a Rapture Post Abomination of Desolation. All you have is an Exegetical Trainwreck with convolutions concerning the different people groups and attributes (Including but not limited to "The Church" and Israel) Those are Tribulation Saints, the ones John Didn't recognize, that came out of GOD's WRATH. Well i believe that you didnt pay close attention to Rev 7:9 and i dont think you allowed scripture to interpret scripture. Because while yes they are tribulation saints after all the rapture is after the mid point so yes they would be tribulation saints. If you got raptured after the mid point wouldnt that make you a tribulation saint Enoch?? Lets take another look at this. Rev6 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Then in the very next chapter later we see God answers their prayers, Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 13 ........What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. So lets see how scripture interprets scripture. In Rev 6 during the 5th seal we see the souls of those killed for their faith by the ac. They petition the Lord to do something about their fellow brethren who are being killed as they were...."O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" They are told that the Lord will do something if they wait a while until the number of the martyrs is completed......"and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." The in rev 7 we see the Lord answers that petition when we see, ....".I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number" These seem to suddenly appear in heaven......."and whence came they" Then we see the Lords answer to their petition of him....."These are they which came out of great tribulation" So we must understand that the Lord does answer prayer and he WAS petitioned of the martyred saints to do something about it and he did, we see so many ppl taken from the earth during the tribulation that it is doubtfull that they had all be killed. Sure they had to wait till the number was completed but we see a number off people in heaven that NO MAN COULD NUMBER. Do you know how long it would take to kill that many people, it would take years and years and years. Clearly they are the martyrs but mainly raptured saints, aka, YOU and me. I have a question......What would be the Purpose of GOD pouring HIS Wrath out on Born Again Christians ("The Church")?? Get them to Repent or Believe more? What is the Purpose of the Great Tribulation? God doesnt pour out his wrath on the church. thats why my view is named PRE_WRATH. The purpose is multiperpose and takes too long to list and explain. Now that is pretty open and shut i think Enoch. This is what i was asking you for, something solid. But what you showed me was based on flawed english translations and was very dependant upon interpration. This event happens in rev 7 right in between seal 6 and seal 7 with 7 being the beginning of the Day of the Lord "open and shut" and "solid" eh? Love the Adjectives....fortunately, they're not Proof just linguistics. It's what the call in the Industry as background noise....unfortunately, the things that most people focus on. Can you show me in the "Original Texts", where it says "Harpazo" in Rev 7?? Or show the LORD "Coming in the Clouds" and the "Trump of GOD" in Rev 7? Define Specifically---"the day of the LORD" Start and End point, thanks. Well i should be the one asking that question Enoch and i will, Can you show me in the "Original Texts", where it says "Harpazo" ?? Or show the LORD "Coming in the Clouds" and the "Trump of GOD" before the tribulation starts? But in answer to your question, YES i can but its in rev 6 during the 6th seal, not 7. Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The Day of the Lord starts on seal 7 of Rev chapter 8 though we see rev 6:16-17 talking about the arrival of his wrath and "that Day" it is apparent to the players in this chapter acknowledge thats its ONLY about to unfold. It does unfold in Rev 8 during the 7th seal. Rev 8"1And when he had opened the seventh seal..... 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! Obviously the Day of the Lord ends at Armageddon. Its time period is some time after the mid point of the 70th week and continues until Armageddon is over. http://learntheology.com/images/full_size/endtimes_overview.jpg http://learntheology.com/images/full_size/bowl_judgements.jpg Click images to expand (images thanks the book The Sign) You cited this verse, Rom11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. So when does the fullness of the gentiles come in and the mystery end? Only GOD knows that number. Moreover, Even though the number of the Gentiles is a "Mystery" (More like unknown or unknowable) in our vernacular from our perspective. "Mystery" in the Greek is a term when used denotes that it will be revealed "Right Now". As in the "Mystery" in the above verse is speaking to......"that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." The Mystery is not the "Number".... the "mystery" is the Whole Concept (Everything after "mystery") . But I'm sure you knew that. I think once again you have not had a firm grasp of what i was saying. Sometimes i think you are a little to fast to try and prove me wrong that you dont listen and comprehend. Again bro, im sorry if this seams harsh but im simply trying to point out that i beleive we are having discussion difficulties due to what i just said. I no way am i trying to put you down nor your believe or view. 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Note, fulness of the Gentiles. This was my context, the fullness of the gentiles comes in at Rev 10, Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. So we see Enoch that the fullness of the gentiles is completed in Rev 10 when it says, the mystery of God should be finished. This gets in the way of your pre tribulation rapture doesnt it. Because you beleive the rapture finished the times of the church, but not so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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