Psalm 83 / Isaiah 17 / Ezekiel 38 - 39

[douggg]

Sigh, eh?  So...?  How do you know I haven't?  Relevance?   Just because you do something for a long time doesn't make it correct or offer any veracity whatsoever.

 

 

Because I looked at your profile and it has that your are 50 years old.     When I first began studying intensely bible prophecy in my early twenties - you were 13.

 

I can tell by your posts how well you understand the prophecies.     And I can also tell that you have not had much discussion, if any, with Jews over the messiah, at their sites.    I have had over 4000 posts at their sites, learning essential information to understand the prophecies that is not available at Christian sites, and why they will mistake the Antichrist as their mashiach for a short period.    In contrast, you have made 1450 posts at this site, to give you an idea of how much I have discussed the messiah with them and Judaism.

 

In spite of all that I don't claim to understand the prophecies, except that God has revealed the understanding to me.

 

 

Ezekiel 38-39 has Zero to do with Armageddon and Zero to do with Matthew 24.  The only way to connect them is to contrive it.

 

 

I did not say Ezekiel 38 has anything to do with Armageddon.   It is Ezekiel 39:17-20 that is the Armageddon feast.     There is a 7 year space between Ezekiel 39:16 and Ezekiel 39:17.      Just like there has been a 2000 year space between the messiah being cutoff in Daniel 9:26 and the end times prince who shall come Antichrist in Daniel 9:27... who in the text stops the daily sacrifice and oblation, just like the little horn in Daniel 8 does - which that vision in the text says is for the time of the end.

 

Which you have never acknowledged that Daniel in Daniel 8 had the vision  and told that it was at the time of the end - which is why I "sigh".    

 

Again, what does this verse say, the part in blue?

 

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

¹⁵ And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

¹⁶ And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

"

Ezekiel has nothing about Revelation 19:20 in it.    Who is making that claim?"

 

??   You are making the claim sir....by simple virtue of your first statement.  See it?

 

This is the Armageddon Feast....see what happens right after?  Show me this context in Ezekiel?? ....

 

 

 

Ezekiel 39:17-29 is not intended to be a entire pre-writing of Revelation.   Revelation 19:20 is not in the text, because God did not put it in the text.  

 

 

You also said this...."Nestled between the lines of Ezekiel 39:16 and Ezekiel 39:17 are those 7 years.      Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast at the end of the 7 years, i.e. at the end of the 70th week."

 

I'd have to say that's one of the most Preposterous comments I've heard.  You're saying Daniel's 70th Week and the ENTIRE Book of Revelation is "Nestled" "between the lines" in Ezekiel, eh? 

 

"Sigh"   It seems preposterous to you because you are so far amiss.     The 7 years that Israel burns the implements for war from Gog's destruction, matches the 7 years that the prince who shall come confirms the Mt. Sinai for - before violating the covenant in the middle of the 7 years.     The 7 years confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant is in the text of Deuteronomy 31:10-11 - which you know nothing about...  "sigh"

 

After the Antichrist has risen to power to become leader of the EU, Greece is the where the Antichrist, the leader of the EU will mobilize and stage the EU, probably NATO,  army right before Gog/Magog..... then he heads down to Israel.          With the intent of stopping Gog/Magog.

 

This is all contrived.  Scripture Support?

 

 

 

 

You have no overview of the Antichrist to understand it.      To understand the Antichrist, and all of the end times prophecies because he is so entwined, is to first realize that the prophecies about the Antichrist are about his RISE and then his FALL from being considered the(illicit) King of Israel, son of David mashiach.

 

And you don't understand that, because you don't understand the concept of the messiah in the text of the old testament as the Jews, including the disciples and John the Baptist, understood ahead of the resurrection.      The understanding that the messiah would die for the sins of mankind was not made UNDERSTOOD to them of the scriptures until Luke 24:44-48, when Christianity began, when Jesus opened the understanding of the scriptures about himself  - which is something else you are not aware of.   .....sigh.

 

 

Daniel 8:9 "Little Horn" is Antiochus IV and is Clear and Distinct as it gets.  The only refutation you have is to conflate the real AC from the End of The Chapter with the "little horn" described in detail earlier.  Pedestrian Exegesis renders that conclusion NULL simply from the context.

 

 

The TEXT says the vision Daniel had of the little horn committing the transgression of the sanctuary is for the TIME OF THE END.     Here it is again.

 

 

What does this verse say, the part in blue?

 

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

¹⁵ And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

¹⁶ And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

 

Why have you not answered any of my questions regarding who are the transgressors, and what is their kingdom?

 

I answered this indirectly with my compare and contrast of the "little horns" (see link above).  This is speaking to Rome Phase II (Holy Roman Empire) and the AC leading them.

 

 

The transgressors are them who with the little horn - AT THE TIME OF THE END - commit the transgression, what is their kingdom?    The Holy Roman empire ended with Napoleon defeat of it.     What's your next guess?

Edited April 27, 2014 by douggg

[Enoch2021]

I believe Montana Marv was right - that Ps. 83 is most likely past.

 

Yes Ps. 83 refers to the 6 day war.

 

Psalm 83.

 

v 1 - 5 We see the enemies of God & Israel are conspiring together saying "Come let us wipe them out as a nation."

 

In 1967 different countries around Israel took counsel together with one accord to destroy Israel from being a nation. For the first time in history these countries forgot their differences. They formed a confederacy to declare a `Jehud,` - holy war to wipe the name of Israel from remembrance. These actual words were frequently broadcast over Radio Cario & published in world newspapers. Unknowingly they were practically quoting directly from prophecy given 25 centuries ago. (Ps. 83)

 

v 6 - 8 Even the participants were accurately delineated - under ancient names.

 

 

ANCIENT NAME..................................MODERN NAME

 

Edom, Moab, Ammon..........................Jordan

Hagarenes, Amalek, Philistines...........Egypt

Ishmaelities..........................................Arabia

Gebal, Tyre..........................................Lebanon

Assyria.................................................Syria, Iraq

 

 

v 9 - 18 And what was the outcome?

 

`Fill their faces with dishonour,....let them be ashamed & dismayed....let them be humiliated.....`  (v. 16 & 17)

 

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

=====================================================================================

 

 

You must have accidentally forgot to list the rest of Verse 17..... I'll go ahead and post it.  (Please when posting Proof Texts from Scripture, Provide the COMPLETE Scripture, thanks)

 

(Psalms 83:17) "Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:"

 

They don't look "perished" to me.....They're still surrounding them.  This is what we call a BIGGIE....and is a Death-Blow to your thesis.

 

 

Ishmaelites = Arabia?  Do you mean Saudi Arabia?  Ishmaelites are much much more than Saudi Arabians or Arabs.  The tribes of Ishmael and Esau Inter-married extensively (Esau took 4 Wives from the 12 Sons/Tribes of Ishmael).

 

Sheba and Dedan-  Which are generally known as Saudi Arabia and Yemen today are from one of Keturah's 6 Son's (Jokshan).

 

There is also alot of confusion as to whether you're speaking Geographically or Ethnically.  All these Tribes inter-married over a few thousand years.....Generally Ishmaelites speak to the Entire Muslim World.

 

Moreover, Saudi Arabia wasn't directly involved in the 6 Day War and Neither were the Lebanese.

 

Edom is just not Jordanians....they also consist of The Palestinians (Of which there are currently 100,000+ in Refugee Camps today).

 

The Main Combatants in the 6 Day War were: Egypt, Syria, Jordan.

 

 

** Special Note**   Curve Ball Alert....

 

(Psalms 83:1-3) "Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.  {2} For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.  {3} They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones."

 

"thy people" = Israel

 

"against thy hidden ones" =  "The Church"  as in already Raptured!!

 

 

In Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog War(as mentioned previously)

 

None of Israel's most hated Enemies (The Ones Currently Surrounding Them) are even mentioned!  

 

The purpose of the Gog/Magog attack is for Booty and Spoil and the Inhabitants of Israel are "dwelling in Safety"...with no walls/bars or gates.

 

(Ezekiel 38:12) "To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land."

 

(Ezekiel 38:11) "And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,"

 

I don't think so lol.  Not with their current neighbors.  Also  "Currently" Israel has no "Spoil" or Booty.  You also have a problem with the 25 foot wall that stretches 430 miles!!

 

Psalm 38 appears to have to come first....to Expand Israel's Borders (Most likely to Abrahamic Covenant) that will take care of the Walls.  Defeating all their Surrounding Enemies mentioned above will provide Spoil or Booty and..... they will Dwell Safely.

 

 

Seems to line up.

 

Hope it helps

[douggg]

Thank you Enoch for you reply,

 

I agree people can`t just arbitrarily splice whatever they want in between passages. However the context in Ez. 38: 19 & 20 clearly shows it is referring to the great earthquake at Armageddon, (Rev. 6: 12 - 17)

 

About `pasting.` I have tried to cut & then paste here on my reply from either my `Word,` notes or from people`s quotes but it is not working. I have done this before on other forums but maybe it is a different way here. Would appreciate if you could help. Hope that is clearer.

Hi Marilyn,

 

Ezekiel 39:17-20 is a jump to the end of the 7 years, and the Armageddon feast at Jesus's return.    In Revelation 16, the armies of the world assembly themselves at Armageddon to try and stop Jesus from returning and setting up the Kingdom of God physically here on earth - over all of the nations of the world.

 

He destroys those armies in Revelation 19, which are feasted upon by the birds and beasts.     Then in Ezekiel 39:21, he says he will set his glory among the heathen - which is the nations of the world who tried to stop his Return - take a look at what it says in Psalms 2.

 

In Ezekiel 39:

²⁰ Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.

²¹ And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

 

In Psalms 2:

2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

² The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

³ Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

⁴ He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

⁵ Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

⁶ Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

 

The earthquake in Ezekiel 38, however, is not any of the earthquakes in Revelation.     Ezekiel 38, the invasion of Gog/Magog is just right before the 7 years begin, and all of the judgements in Revelation take place.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

=============================================================================

 

 

Because I looked at your profile and it has that your are 50 years old.

 

Who authorized you to view my profile page??  lol

 

 

When I first began studying intensely bible prophecy in my early twenties - you were 13.

 

I'm a Quick Study. 

 

You are also trying to superimpose some Veracity to "your" many years as you say.  It's Absolutely Irrelevant and it's Speaking Volumes.  Listen, I'm sure Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, and Lawrence Krauss have TONS of years of study, many books ect, yet my 11 Year old daughter can refute each of their silly little postulates with Basic Logic and Critical Thinking Skills (I'm not Joking either)

 

I can tell by your posts how well you understand the prophecies.

 

I with you also.  And please, I have enough Color Commentators, I don't need another one.  Post your postulates and Support them sir.  All of this is just playground nonsense, IMHO.

 

 

And I can also tell that you have not had much discussion, if any, with Jews over the messiah, at their sites.    I have had over 4000 posts at their sites, learning essential information to understand the prophecies that is not available at Christian sites,

 

ahhh, they have the "Secret Knowledge", eh?  Back to the numbers again I see.

 

 

Last One..... See the Systematic Refutation of your points in my last 3 posts.

 

 

The transgressors are them who with the little horn - AT THE TIME OF THE END - commit the transgression, what is their kingdom?    The Holy Roman empire ended with Napoleon defeat of it.     What's your next guess?

 

Napoleon didn't defeat the Roman Empire LOL, You're only about 1300 years off the mark! The Western Leg unraveled in 476 AD.....Napoleon wasn't born until 1769.

 

The Eastern Leg (Byzantine) outlasted it by nearly 1000 years.

 

Go back and take a look @ Nebuchadnezzar's Statue.....What was the Last Kingdom??  You know the Iron Legs....Who's that?  Who's the Iron mixed with Miry Clay....The Feet and Toes?

 

My goodness sir

 

What's my next guess, eh? 

 

I think I'm rollin with the Seahawks again.  However; it pains me somewhat..... I'm from The Home of The World Champion Pittsburgh Steelers (70's)....they don't make'm like that anymore 

[douggg]

Who authorized you to view my profile page??  lol

 

According to chosen screen-name, Enoch, you may have me by thousands of years.   But in reality, no, you have to call me "Mr. Doug".

     You are "younger brother".

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

The transgressors are them who with the little horn - AT THE TIME OF THE END - commit the transgression, what is their kingdom?    The Holy Roman empire ended with Napoleon defeat of it.     What's your next guess?

 

Napoleon didn't defeat the Roman Empire LOL, You're only about 1300 years off the mark! The Western Leg unraveled in 476 AD.....Napoleon wasn't born until 1769.

 

You had referred to the Holy Roman empire, not me.   I did not write that Napoleon defeated the Roman Empire.      He ended the Holy Roman Empire.

 

From the History Today site.....http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/end-holy-roman-empire

 

"The Holy Roman Empire had survived over a thousand years, when it was finally destroyed by Napoleon and the French in 1806."

 

Again, the question for you remains.     What is the kingdom of the transgressors and little horn of the end times?    And who are they?

 

¹⁰ And it [the little horn]  waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

¹¹ Yea, he [the little horn] magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

¹² And an host was given him [the little horn] against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

 

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

 

 

²⁴ And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

²⁵ And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

 

If you say you don't know, then I am willing to inform you.

Edited April 28, 2014 by douggg

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

=================================================================================

 

 

You had referred to the Holy Roman empire, not me.   I did not write that Napoleon defeated the Roman Empire.

 

My mistake for saying "Holy".  It's "The Roman Empire" in view here and in Daniels Vision not "Holy" especially when Daniel describes it as a Dreadful and Terrible Beast lol. http://www.ancient.eu.com/Roman_Empire/

 

 

Again, the question for you remains.     What is the kingdom of the transgressors and little horn of the end times?    And who are they?

 

 

10 And it [the little horn]  waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he [the little horn] magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him [the little horn] against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

 

 

This is the last time I'm gonna comment on this For You.

 

These are not the end times passages and the "Little Horn" is Antiochus the IV here..... and IS NOT the "little horn" of Chapter 7 as I have specifically shown you repeatedly.

 

Trying to splice Passage 23 into this is quite troubling and you've tried a number of times; And I've already said towards the end of Chapter 8 it talks about the "king of fierce countenance" which is the "Real" ac.  Which is abundantly crystal clear from reading Chapter 8.

[Marilyn C]

Enoch 2021

 

v 17  & 18 `Let them be confounded and dismayed forever; Yes, let them be put to shame and perish, that men may know that you, whose name alone is the Lord, are the Most High over all the earth.`

 

`perish,`   It`s not over yet Enoch 2021, God will yet do that part of the prayer.

`confounded,`

 

Speaking three weeks after the war ended, as he accepted an honorary degree from the Hebrew University, Tizhak Rabin gave his reasoning behind the success of Israel:

 

  `Our airmen, who struck the enemies` planes so accurately that no one in the world understands how it was done and people seek technological explanations or secret weapons; our armoured troops who beat the enemy even when their equipment was inferior to his; our soldiers in all other branches....who overcame our enemies everywhere, despite the latter`s superior numbers and fortifications all these revealed not only coolness and courage in the battle but...an understanding that only their personal stand against the greatest dangers would achieve victory for their country and for their families, and that is victory was not theirs the alternative was annihilation.`

 

 

Within 6 days Israel had won a decisive land war. Israeli forces had taken control of the Gaza Strip, and the Sinai Penninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

 

 

 

`confounded, humiliated...`  you bet. 

Edited April 28, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

Hi Douggy,

 

Yes I do agree with most of what you said, but I still believe that the great earthquake in Ez. 38. 19 & 20 is the same one in Rev. 6: 12 - 16.

[Enoch2021]

Enoch 2021

 

v 17  & 18 `Let them be confounded and dismayed forever; Yes, let them be put to shame and perish, that men may know that you, whose name alone is the Lord, are the Most High over all the earth.`

 

`perish,`   It`s not over yet Enoch 2021, God will yet do that part of the prayer.

`confounded,`

 

Speaking three weeks after the war ended, as he accepted an honorary degree from the Hebrew University, Tizhak Rabin gave his reasoning behind the success of Israel:

 

  `Our airmen, who struck the enemies` planes so accurately that no one in the world understands how it was done and people seek technological explanations or secret weapons; our armoured troops who beat the enemy even when their equipment was inferior to his; our soldiers in all other branches....who overcame our enemies everywhere, despite the latter`s superior numbers and fortifications all these revealed not only coolness and courage in the battle but...an understanding that only their personal stand against the greatest dangers would achieve victory for their country and for their families, and that is victory was not theirs the alternative was annihilation.`

 

 

Within 6 days Israel had won a decisive land war. Israeli forces had taken control of the Gaza Strip, and the Sinai Penninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

 

 

 

`confounded, humiliated...`  you bet. 

 

 

===================================================================================

 

And....?  How does this refute the position of Psalm 83 having yet to take place......Future?

 

 

`perish,`   It`s not over yet Enoch 2021, God will yet do that part of the prayer.

 

Yes, in the Psalm 83 War

[douggg]

These are not the end times passages and the "Little Horn" is Antiochus the IV here..... and IS NOT the "little horn" of Chapter 7 as I have specifically shown you repeatedly.

 

You have shown that you don't read the words in the text that say the vision that the little horn commits the transgression is for the time of the end

 

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

¹⁵ And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

¹⁶ And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

 

 

You have a fixation, thinking that the abomination of desolation that Antiochus committed in Daniel 11 is the transgression by the little horn of Daniel 8.

 

BUT the text is that the Daniel 8 transgression - that vision - is for the time of the end in the text.     That the little horn in Daniel 8 grows strong from the area of one of the break-up kingdoms - does not make it historic.    It is just identifying where he puts together his army before going down to Israel in the time of the end.

Edited April 28, 2014 by douggg