Mediate Creation

[Tolken]

Shiloh357 - I have offered any "distortions" of Genesis.

 

So have you or haven't you?  Did you mean to say “many”?  It appears that your cursory reading of Genesis stems from the fact that you can’t see past your lifelong inculcation. Your obsession with “evolution” has perhaps hindered you gaining a deeper understanding and perspective on Genesis.   

 

Quote -You give vague answers that pretty avoid answering the question  that was asked, or you redefine terms.

 

What’s the expression “the pot calling the kettle black”?  When your obsessive fixation on evolution is in play you at times fail to respond to the actual discussion.  I have attempted to state that I do not even pretend to have all of the answers, but find through God ordained processes a belief in the strong possibility of some form of evolution.  Vague and meaningless to you and others of a dogmatic stripe but then as I suggested Ecc. 3:11 is a valid and trenchant point...

 

Shiloh357 wrote – “God is still the agent of creation.”

 

I wrote “...all of creation was actualized by God’s spoken command or fiat. Each day begins with those very words, so that the commands of God were the source of all creation, the sole and only operative agent. So we are in agreement.

 

Shiloh357 wrote – “Created matter still did His bidding.” 

 

I wrote - “Understanding as we do that the command is the sole operative then one can’t help but notice that the command/fiat is directed not to animals but to the land.  

*So you state that created matter did God’s bidding which is exactly what I’ve suggested.

 

Shiloh357 wrote  - The land didn't create the animals God. 

 

We will assume you meant “...God did”. I don’t believe it was suggested that the land created, but rather that God used the land as His mediate agency to bring forth life. As you noted "created matter still did His bidding". That is a pretty a clear reading of Genesis, and what I suggested.

 

Shiloh357 wrote  -  “Mediate creation does mean that God told the earth to create the animals.”

 

And that is exactly what the bible states “And God said, Let the land produce...” again as you stated “Created matter still did His bidding.”  So we are in agreement.  Another question you failed to address – “Is it not possible that God set in motion at the beginning all of the "laws" for the incipient powers, elements, material, etc. as to the natural processes of phenomena to be produced?”

 

Along these same lines I wrote – “Show me in Gen. 1:24 where God called living creatures into existence ...I will show you where God commanded the land to produce living creatures?  And you call that my personal reading?  The text nowhere states "And God said, let there be living creatures..." it seems you are reading into the text.”

 

Again, as to Genesis 1:25 “If as scripture states the sole and only operative agent in creation was God’s commands (Psalm 33:6, etc.) then logically what follows the command/fiat is explanatory.  “And God made...” statements are not the operative commands, but an explanation of results.” So were God’s commands sufficient? 

 

Shiloh357 wrote - You can't explain how man fits into the evolutionary scheme of things and frankly you avoid that topic altogether and always find some lame excuse why the thread is inappropriate for you to answer that question.

 

Actually, I had asked you whether “our image” was spiritual or physical...I don’t believe you answered. I did write “As for "man" it is possible he evolved to a point where "God breathed in to him the breath of life”, as I believe "Our image" to be immaterial/non-physical.”.  I will make the assumption that you agree that as the Bible states God formed man from the “dust” of the ground, so what exactly does that mean?

 

Shiloh357 wrote - So, yes, but you reserve the right to alter your position to include evolution at your convenience?  What do you mean by "dynamic?"

 

“At your convenience” clever little dig on your part. Perhaps Lord willing you will be able at some point to read scripture with fresh eyes and fully realize that Ecc. 3:11 applies to your narrow and quite myopic views.  I won't apologize for my digression concerning my friends...though your question about "dynamic"recalled many of the conversations I had with them defending the truth of God's creation.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh357 - I have offered any "distortions" of Genesis.

 

So have you or haven't you?  Did you mean to say “many”?  It appears that your cursory reading of Genesis stems from the fact that you can’t see past your lifelong inculcation. Your obsession with “evolution” has perhaps hindered you gaining a deeper understanding and perspective on Genesis.   

Sorry, it was my typo.   I meant to type " I have NOT offered any distortions of Genesis.   Since you claim that I have, please provide such distortions for review.

 

Actually, I had asked you whether “our image” was spiritual or physical...I don’t believe you answered. I did write “As for "man" it is possible he evolved to a point where "God breathed in to him the breath of life”, as I believe "Our image" to be immaterial/non-physical.”.  I will make the assumption that you agree that as the Bible states God formed man from the “dust” of the ground, so what exactly does that mean?

 

the Bible says two things:  It says that God formed the body of adam from the dirt.  It also says that God made Adam in His image.  We are in God's image in our ability to reason, to live morally, to relate to Him spiritually.  He created someone who can talk to Him, have fellowship with Him and be in relationship with Him.

 

How did man "evolve" to where God breathed life into Him and where do you find that in the Bible?    

 

The Bible says God formed man from the dust of the earth.  It means, that God made from the dirt.  He took dirt and from it he made a man and then breathed life into that man.  God made man perfect.  There was no need for evolution.

[Guest shiloh357]

Hey, Tolkein,

 

I'm still waiting on the list of distortions of Genesis you claim I made.  Please present a list of my distortions for review.   Either that, or apologize for falsely accusing me.

[a-seeker]

The Bible says God formed man from the dust of the earth.  It means, that God made from the dirt.  He took dirt and from it he made a man and then breathed life into that man.  God made man perfect.  There was no need for evolution.

 

 

Yeah.  I'll jump in here.

 

You imply that evolution entails the transition from an imperfect state to a perfect state.  Yet you admit that God made man from dirt.  Was the dirt perfect?  Or was it imperfect, since it wasn't man?  Are animals or "lesser" beings imperfect, or less perfect than dirt, or perfect?  You have made an interesting evaluation between material and form: if evolution is true (i.e. the material form of man came through a very long process, through various species, and finally reached the present form of man) then man can not be in God's image!  What proof is there for this!?

 

AGain, supposedly,  if man came from a single material form (dirt), which again entails a process.......though not as long (although the Bible gives us no detail as to how long it took for "God to form Man from the dust"!  Was it a day?  a weak?  A year? 700 years?  a billion?) then man is somehow perfect?!?!.  Dirt is a more honorable material than life forms?!  

 

NO matter what, it was a process and entailed a material that was not man: you have a pile of dirt; it then "whirls about into a shape--legs and feet, then a torso, than arms, hands, a neck, then a head etc....how long was this process, we don't know... then breath. Still a process.  Even if it was instantaneous it was a process: from material dirt to dirt with form (man) and then man with breath.

 

You are better off leaving all philosophical angles alone.  They are not your strong suit.  Stick to exegesis.  You will get lost in the subtleties otherwise.  Your only strategy really is to show that Genesis was intended as historical in genre.  Outside of that, well, you are out of your league.  (I don't like speaking like this, really; but the converse of "treat others as you would be treated" is "assume that the way others treat you is the way they want to be treated". And you have shown me, from the first day I joined this forum, by example, how you want to be treated.) 

 

clb

Edited June 2, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown

[Guest]

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

 

~

 

Fresno Joe - Beloved, This Dear Man Clearly Said A Pagan (A Godless Atheist) Became His Teacher

 

Blessings Fresno Joe, but I admit I have no idea what you are referring to? Who claimed or intimated that my friends somehow became my teachers?  We exchanged thoughts and ideas relative to my beliefs and their questions... that Shiloh, as a way to avoid the subject at hand, posed the question recalled this same question. That Shiloh finds my answers "meaningless" is laughable to me as I find his non-responses quite lacking in the narrowest of ways.

 

~

 

Ah Beloved

 

One of the questions he asked was whether I believed life to be dynamic or static.

 

As Usual The Atheist Left It Out~!

 

An Apple Stays An Apple

 

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. Genesis 1:1

 

A Fish Stays A Fish

 

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Genesis 1:20

 

The Third And The Directly Observable Choice

 

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:22

 

"Do You Believe Life to Be Dynamic Or Static

Or Is It So Sin Corrupted As To Be In Grave Danger Of Extinction"

 

Why Didn't You Call Him On His Set Up?

Did His Question Shut Up Your Newspaper Witness?

And Why Is He (A Sly Hungry Wolf) Your Friend

 

Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16

 

When Shiloh Is Fighting

With All His Soul To Draw You Back

Back To The Truth, To The Jesus Christ Of The Bible,

To The Almighty LORD God

Of All The Cosmos

 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

 

~

 

And As For That Much Treasured Shiloh

 

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 1:3-4

 

We Know He Knows The Terrible Danger You Are In

 

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38

 

As You Dance And Flirt With The Seductive Thoughts Of Men And Demon

 

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

 

Discounting One Trait Of The Lord Jesus After Another

 

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

 

Until You Are In Danger Of A Frankenstein Jesus

 

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

 

With No Faith

 

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

 

No Hope

 

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Romans 8:24-25

 

And The Bible Closing In Your Face

 

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Isaiah 29:11-12

 

(Is The Holy Bible Dynamic Or Static Or Both)

 

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

 

And Is It Any Wonder We Weep For You Dear Brother?

 

They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him. Psalms 126:5-6

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

 

~

 

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

[Guest shiloh357]

 

The Bible says God formed man from the dust of the earth.  It means, that God made from the dirt.  He took dirt and from it he made a man and then breathed life into that man.  God made man perfect.  There was no need for evolution.

 

 

Yeah.  I'll jump in here.

 

You imply that evolution entails the transition from an imperfect state to a perfect state.  Yet you admit that God made man from dirt.  Was the dirt perfect?  Or was it imperfect, since it wasn't man? 

 

 

No, Evolution doesn't entail that and I implied no such thing.  I said that Evolution isn't in play with reference to the creation of man (it wasn't in play at all in any part of creation, really).

 

Yes, God made man from the dirt.  The dirt was perfect because God created it and God doesn't create imperfection.  He has no imperfection in Him, so imperfection cannot come from Him.   God made a perfect man from perfect dirt.

 

Are animals or "lesser" beings imperfect, or less perfect than dirt, or perfect? 

 

The animals were also created perfectly, again, because God made them and He doesn't create imperfection

 

You have made an interesting evaluation between material and form: if evolution is true (i.e. the material form of man came through a very long process, through various species, and finally reached the present form of man) then man can not be in God's image!  What proof is there for this!?

 

I didn't say that if evolution is true that man can't be in God's image.  Again, that is something you assigning to me.  My point is that God made Adam as a perfect man, a perfect human being as a special creation from the dirt and He made him in His image.   My point is that an all-knowing God who makes everything perfectly doesn't need to use a process like evolution. 

 

AGain, supposedly,  if man came from a single material form (dirt), which again entails a process.......though not as long (although the Bible gives us no detail as to how long it took for "God to form Man from the dust"!  Was it a day?  a weak?  A year? 700 years?  a billion?) then man is somehow perfect?!?!.  Dirt is a more honorable material than life forms?!  

The Bible doesn't give us a precise amount of time in terms of how long it took to create man, but we do know God created the animals separately from man and created man and woman all on the same day so it was really just a matter of minutes or hours.   That is what the Bible says and God's word is always 100% true and accurate from start to finish as God inspired it all to be said and God can't lie or inspire erroneous facts.

 

NO matter what, it was a process and entailed a material that was not man: you have a pile of dirt; it then "whirls about into a shape--legs and feet, then a torso, than arms, hands, a neck, then a head etc....how long was this process, we don't know... then breath. Still a process.  Even if it was instantaneous it was a process: from material dirt to dirt with form (man) and then man with breath.

 

 

The point is that it was the "process" of Evolution from one species of being to another.   Man is not part of the animal kingdom despite the assertion of humanists and other secularists that man is just a higher primate.   The Bible  doesn't give us the nuts and bolts explanation of exactly how God created man from the dust.  He didn't leave a play-by-play description.   But he does provide us with enough light in Genesis 1 and 2  that we can know that Evolution is a dead stick.  The description of how God created man and everything precludes Evolution. 

 

 

 

You are better off leaving all philosophical angles alone.  They are not your strong suit.  Stick to exegesis.  You will get lost in the subtleties otherwise.  Your only strategy really is to show that Genesis was intended as historical in genre.  Outside of that, well, you are out of your league.  (I don't like speaking like this, really; but the converse of "treat others as you would be treated" is "assume that the way others treat you is the way they want to be treated". And you have shown me, from the first day I joined this forum, by example, how you want to be treated.) 

 

clb

 

I am not coming at this from a philosophical angle.  I am approaching the passage from a doctrinal and historical angle. I would think you could tell the difference.   But, you are busy trying to refute arguments I didn't raise. 

[Tolken]

Shiloh357 - the Bible says two things:  It says that God formed the body of adam from the dirt.  It also says that God made Adam in His image.  We are in God's image in our ability to reason, to live morally, to relate to Him spiritually.  He created someone who can talk to Him, have fellowship with Him and be in relationship with Him.

 

So we agree as to “Our image”. 

 

Quote – “How did man "evolve" to where God breathed life into Him and where do you find that in the Bible?

 

Where do we find many things detailed in the Bible, especially in Genesis 1? I believe that with reasoned minds we see/read implications (or elsewhere in scripture more explicit detail) from which we make as logical an inference as we are capable of making.

The first use of the word "create" is in Gen 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” from this Creatio ex nihilo, to bring out of nothing.. Contrary to the “gap theory” rather one might conclude that 1:1 was on the first day.  And though many follow this by stating that on day 1 starting at vs. 3 God created this, on day 2 God created this, etc. this line of reasoning is not what scripture says.  From verse 3 on “And God said, ...” is commanding into existence, by whatever means, from that which had already been created.

 

You termed this for 1:24 as “Created matter still did His bidding” I phrased it as “Is it not possible that God set in motion at the beginning all of the "laws" for the incipient powers, elements, material, etc. as to the natural processes of phenomena to be produced?”  Essentially the created matter/elements responded to the bidding/Commands of God.  Further, as noted God needed only to speak/command all into existence.  It is based upon this (“let the land produce...”,  Let the waters bring forth...”, etc.) that I have no problem with believing some form of evolution, again based completely upon God’s ordained processes.  I would add that scripture does not state how the earth/waters should bring forth life, so with any interpretation it is necessary to infer.  The notion that a God commanded process/natural process excludes Him is simply false.

 

As for the creation of man it is clear from scripture that man too is a mediate creation formed, shaped, made from preexisting matter. However, it is also clear that man is a “special” creation.  As the bible is silent on the how then no interpretation can be deemed irrefutably correct.

 

Possible that the physical/biological “man” evolved, and then in His timing separated a man/Adam to place in the Garden of Eden.  A “natural” explanation does not in any way negate God’s providence. It can be noted that in various scriptures (Job 31:15, Psalm 139:13, Isaiah 44:24) God is active in and through what we would term a natural process.

 

We rightly attribute to God many natural processes especially weather related and the balance of the “natural” order. As noted in Isaiah 44:24 God is the creator of all things, and yet we note too that there are what we term natural processes set in place.  Obviously these processes do not function distinct from the commanded “laws” that God set in place.

 

The distinction is clearly that God created not only as a physical being but as a spiritual being.  Again, this is possible because the import has to do with the spiritual not the physical. 

 

The overarching point is simply this , does scripture detail the how of God’s creation...no. How then does one interpret “Let the land/water produce...” that in conjunction with what we do know that both man and animals are physically made from “dust”.

[Guest shiloh357]

Hey, Tolkein,

 

I'm still waiting on the list of distortions of Genesis you claim I made.  Please present a list of my distortions for review.   Either that, or apologize for falsely accusing me.

Still waiting for that list of distortions, Tolkein.  Either show where i have distorted Genesis as you claim or retract your claim and apologize.  This is where integrity comes into play.

[Tolken]

Shiloh357 - I'm still waiting on the list of distortions of Genesis you claim I made.

 

Actually, I will apologize as you did finally qualify that in fact mediate creation is on a level quite biblical, though in a previous thread you and Cobalt1959 simply belittled that point. Further, that you did agree that created matter still does God's bidding which is foundational to the processes God created. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh357 - I'm still waiting on the list of distortions of Genesis you claim I made.

 

Actually, I will apologize as you did finally qualify that in fact mediate creation is on a level quite biblical, though in a previous thread you and Cobalt1959 simply belittled that point. Further, that you did agree that created matter still does God's bidding which is foundational to the processes God created. 

What Cobalt and I previously criticized was your original attempt to link mediate creation to evolution.   I corrected your use of mediate creation, actually.  I didn't concede any points to you.