Spock Posted August 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 Hi Spock, Now why do you all think that when Christ opens the scroll with the 7 seals (Rev. 6) that then that must be the end of that & now on to the next thing? I believe Rev is set out in chronological order, with some parenthesis thrown in. First the seals, then the trumpets, then the bowls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted August 10, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,204 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) Hi Spock, That can sound logical BUT the scroll received by Christ from the Father`s hand (as it were - Rev. 5: 6 & 7) we know, is the scroll of the judgments of God. They reveal to us the CONTENTS of the coming judgments. Just like a book has a Contents page & then we can see the order laid out, God, who made our language & our brains to think orderly has thus given us the overview of the 7 years - the Beginning, the Middle & the End. The Beginning - the line up of the 4 Super Powers to be judged. The Middle - the rule of the Anti-Christ - killing opposition. The End - everyone hides from the wrath of God & the Lamb. Edited August 10, 2014 by Marilyn C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted August 11, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 Marilyn, I'm not so sure. Look at rev 5 again... 6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spiritsa of God sent out into all the earth. 7He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reignb on the earth.” Spock thinking out loud: verse 6 gives us the context- when the lamb was slain. When was that? 33 AD or thereabouts. Jesus became worthy to open the scroll at Calvary. I see this whole chapter referencing that point in time. Thus, Rev 6 could be anytime immediately after Jesus' death and resurrection. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone can be dogmatic about this- you or me. It doesn't specifically say, so we both are drawing conclusions from what we have been given. Your way of thinking may be right, but I wouldn't bet the house. but most people see what you do....just not me yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollinTHUNDER Posted August 11, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,985 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted August 11, 2014 How are the messianic jews going to be drawn to the Lord Jesus, if the Holy Spirit is removed from earth at the so called pre-trib rapture.Messianic Jews have already been converted to Christianity.Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted August 11, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,204 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) Hi Spock, Now you say that Rev. 5 & 6 could be after Jesus died, 33 AD. Ok let`s go with that thought & test it out, as God`s word tells us to. So in the last 2000 years - 1. Has the cost of living throughout the world gone to a day`s pay? 2. Have 1/4 of the people of the earth been killed? 3. Has the Lord been judging the people of the earth? What does God`s word tell us - God the Father, after Christ`s ascension, 33 AD says - `Sit at My right hand UNTIL I make your enemies a footstool for Thy feet.` (Heb. 1: 13 & Ps. 110: 1) Are Christ`s enemies His footstool yet? Thus the scroll of judgment is not opened yet. Edited August 11, 2014 by Marilyn C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted August 11, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 Hi Spock, Now you say that Rev. 5 & 6 could be after Jesus died, 33 AD. Ok let`s go with that thought & test it out, as God`s word tells us to. So in the last 2000 years - 1. Has the cost of living throughout the world gone to a day`s pay? 2. Have 1/4 of the people of the earth been killed? 3. Has the Lord been judging the people of the earth? What does God`s word tell us - God the Father, after Christ`s ascension, 33 AD says - `Sit at My right hand UNTIL I make your enemies a footstool for Thy feet.` (Heb. 1: 13 & Ps. 110: 1) Are Christ`s enemies His footstool yet? Thus the scroll of judgment is not opened yet. Spock rebuttal: 1. Many countries are in poverty 2. I don't know the numbers, but many people throughout the past 2000 years have been killed in war or fighting 3. Not sure where you got this one from. Not sure what you mean about the footstool. It seems to say that Jesus is to sit at the right hand until his enemies have been subdued. That won't happen until he returns. Bottom line: the first four seals are broad and may not be so narrow as you believe. The interpretation of Rev is very subjective due to many symbols. It is possible, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 11, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 11, 2014 LAMAD Readers, please note that Paul never mentions any Arc Angels here. Note that Paul's very THEME is the rapture. How silly is it to come up with a theory on this passage that does not include the rapture? How silly one ignores Peters epistles on the matter. You are asking us to comprehend that we are being asked to believe that the two sets of letters from Peter and Paul epsitles represent: TWO different peoples, TWO different expectations, TWO difference in comings of our Lord at two different times, TWO different resurrections, TWO different bodies, TWO different rewards, TWO different locations, and TWO different glories! If you take the concept of rapture it treats Peter and Pauls Espsitles like the following: 1. In John 18:5-9, Jesus, in fact, identifies Himself: "Whom are you seeking?" They answered Him, "Jesus, the Nazarene."Jesus is saying to them, "I am He." 2. Matt. 26:49 says of Judas, "And he kisses Him fondly," but in John’s account Judas doesn’t kiss Jesus at all to identify Him. I must now conclude like a rapturist, TWO Different events, Two different betrayals , Two different Locations of when Judas betrayad Jesus. as we can see that's not correct, yet you ignore that Peter had a great amount to say on the second coming. Heres a puzzle for pre trib rapturists I dare you to figure out. PETER has just written two epistles to these churches mentioning the coming of our Lord and the fulfillment of our expectation TWENTY SOME TIMES! PAUL ALSO HAS WRITTEN TO THEM IN ALL HIS EPISTLES CONCERNING "THESE THINGS" (Ver. 16). THESE ARE THE "SAME THINGS," WRITTEN BY THE SAME TWO APOSTLES, TO THE SAME CHURCHES! Peter AND Paul taught the SAME THINGS REGARDING THE SECOND COMING OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST If these churches had already received Peter’s gospel, why would they want to hear Paul’s gospel? WRONG! Paul's gospels to the Thessalonians (both letters speak of the rapture) were written long before Peter's two Epistles. And Peter never wrote of the rapture of the church. LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 11, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 11, 2014 Hi Spock, Now you say that Rev. 5 & 6 could be after Jesus died, 33 AD. Ok let`s go with that thought & test it out, as God`s word tells us to. So in the last 2000 years - 1. Has the cost of living throughout the world gone to a day`s pay? 2. Have 1/4 of the people of the earth been killed? 3. Has the Lord been judging the people of the earth? What does God`s word tell us - God the Father, after Christ`s ascension, 33 AD says - `Sit at My right hand UNTIL I make your enemies a footstool for Thy feet.` (Heb. 1: 13 & Ps. 110: 1) Are Christ`s enemies His footstool yet? Thus the scroll of judgment is not opened yet. Marilyn, have you ever heard of "context?" Rev. 4 & 5 are the context of the first seals and they give us the timing. John saw in this vision the very moment Jesus ascended back into the throne room after His resurrection. The moment he arrive, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This was around 32 AD. Notice that the very first thing Jesus did was take the scroll and begin breaking seals. You also err about the one fourth of the earth being killed. That is just not what is written. LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 11, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 11, 2014 The pre-trib view is that the Holy Spirit is what is restraining the son of perdition, so the Holy Spirit has to be removed along with the church at the pre-trib rapture. The problem with that theory is all the Bibles will have to go also, because it teaches anyone that excepts Jesus as their savior, the Holy Spirit will never leave them, and the Bible says a number that no man can number will come out of the tribulation. If the Holy Spirit is removed from this earth at a pre-trib rapture, then how can this great number of people coming from the tribulation claim the promise in the Bible about the Holy spirit never leaving them. I believe you are referencing rev 7 that talk about a great number coming out of tribulation. Rev 7 follows what? Rev 6. Rev 6 ends with the 6th seal, and then the rapture (I believe this great number coming out of tribulation is the Raptured church). LAMAD has been preaching this message for days. By the way Enoch, I don't believe I am pre trib. I believe the rapture follows the 6th seal. Do you think this makes me pre trib? However, I can't be dogmatic as to the timing of the rapture in regards to Daniels 70th week. Lately, I've been entertaining the notion that the four horsemen of Rev 6 precede the 70th week. Spock, I can tell you that the first time God spoke to me in a voice I heard and words I heard, He sent me to find first the exact midpoint of the 70th week, and then the entire 70th week "clearly marked." Then He told me how to find the exact midpoint. I did not get this from words, but as a download: when I found the midpoint "clealry marked" I would automatically know the beginning and end, because they use the same marker. john shows us that the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal. I then find it very logical that the Week would begin soon after, with the 30 minutes of silence. The midpoint is marked by the 7th seal, and the end is marked by the 7th vial. LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 11, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 11, 2014 One must look at 2 Tim 3: 1-9 as an example; There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money..... lovers of pleasure than lovers of God. having a form of godliness, but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.... They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins, but they are never able to acknowledge the truth.... Men of depraved minds, who, as far as faith is concerned, are rejected. But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone. v. 13 - while evil imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. This apostasy, rebellion is ongoing now. For this is how Paul describes this rebellion of 2 Thes 2:3. So we are already in this era of Rebellion or Apostasy. Pastors appearing to give out the truth, but denying the truth themselves. But did we not cast out demons in your name and preach in your name; But Jesus will say "I never knew you". Now we are waiting for him/someone to be taken out of the way, then the son of perdition can be revealed. We are already in Stage one, Stage two happens when he is taken out of the way, then Stage three is when the son of perdition is revealed. In Christ Montana Marv That is, IF apostasy is what Paul meant by apostasia. I think God meant a different kind of departure. I am convinced he meant a spacial departure of a part from a whole, from one place of residing or standing to another place: earth to heaven as in the gathering. If this is NOT what Paul meant by apostasia, please enlighten us as to where Paul concluded about his theme: the gathering. LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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