Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

 

I do appreciate reading God`s word. And thank you for your thoughts for I can see what leads you to your beliefs. Now do you realise your last statement is like `Do you still kick the cat?` if I say yes, then I still `kick the cat,` & if I say no, then I used to `kick the cat,` but not now. However what if I never `kicked the cat.` The two options you gave me were - `can you be convinced? or, are you just getting `ammunition`......` However it may be that I do have some truth. That is another option Retro.

 

My question was `Can you give more scriptures to show that the Body of Christ is on the earth in the millennium?`

 

 

Do you realise that most your scriptures are to do with Israel? The Body of Christ was not known in the Old Testament or the Gospels as it was a mystery that the Holy Spirit revealed to the Apostle Paul.  The two other scriptures you used do not show the Body of Christ ruling on earth in the Millennium

 

1 Thess: 4: 13 - 17 show that the Body of Christ meets the Lord in the aid & escorts Him to His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21) This throne `seat of power,` is above all others in the third heaven, as the apostle Paul was shown.

 

Rev. 20: 4 shows thrones set up for those who were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus & didn`t receive the mark. These are the ones who come alive & rule over the nations in the millennium. It does not say they are the Body of Christ.  

 

My question was “CAN you be convinced?” Children ask honest questions; adults ask questions for which they really think they already know the answer. So, the second part addresses this issue: Will you open-mindedly review the verses I quote or have you already made up your mind? I’m not trying to be offensive, and I truly hope that you have not taken offense in the asking, but although I’m not the busiest guy in the world, my birthday is coming up, I’m painfully conscious about getting older, and whatever time I have left must be used wisely. Therefore, I ask this honestly so as not to waste my time on a hopeless pursuit. If you’re teachable, I will continue, but I have already given you sufficient passages of Scripture. The problem is, as I see it, that you still fail to recognize that Jew and Gentile are ONE in the Messiah, but that that oneness is not in the “Church”; it is in the Kingdom of God, which is primarily built from the children of Israel and Gentiles are oleander branches grafted in among the children of Israel, the natural olive branches.

 

This may be hard to swallow, but there IS a “superiority” of sorts in the children of Israel as a nation and a people - not for anything that the people living now have earned or deserve; it is because of their ANCESTORS - their FOREFATHERS - the PATRIARCHS! In Romans chapters 9 through 11, Paul shows that the Gentiles have been grafted in, CONTRARY to nature, to drive the Jews to jealousy! What good would that do if the Jews never stood a chance? Furthermore, in Ephesians chapter 2, Paul explains that it is the GENTILES who become CITIZENS OF ISRAEL, not the reverse! YES! We become “ONE in the Messiah (the Christ),” but He is the MESSIAH (ANOINTED; SELECTED; CHOSEN) OF GOD FOR ISRAEL’S KING! He hasn’t “moved on” to the Gentiles; He has graciously allowed the Gentiles into the fold! It is important that you understand that, OUTSIDE of the Messiah, there is STILL a distinction between the children of Israel and the Goyim (Gentiles).

 

Therefore, we believers become a SUBSET of the Messiah’s Israel! And, that Israel is STILL the same Israel over which His ancestor David reigned! So, when we who are Gentiles are grafted into the Messiah’s Israel, WE SHARE IN ISRAEL’S BLESSINGS AND FUTURE! Thus, the prophecies concerning Israel during the Millennium are prophecies in which we who are believing Gentiles also have a part! Once I accepted this truth, everything in prophecy fell into place, and any passage of Scripture that might otherwise have been considered a “problem passage” suddenly became clear and also fell into place. Even old mysteries, like, “Why is Revelation 16:15 where it is, between the three unclean spirits like frogs and the gathering to Har-Megiddown (Armageddon)?” become much easier to fathom.

 

So, we’ve come to a crossroads: Are we going to dialogue or part ways? I will listen to your arguments; from time to time I learn something that will augment what I believe, but I’ve got to warn you that, with all that the LORD has already made to fall into place for me, I’m a tough sell. That being said, can you learn or must we agree to disagree?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

Happy Birthday for soon. I`ve just had mine & big numbers are looming up soon. So I really appreciate what you said about using the time wisely for what we have left. Glad you were not trying to be offensive, but it did seem as though I only had two options, learn or be disagreeable. As to `we agree to disagree.` I know what people mean by that phrase but as we are to speak the truth (in love - right attitude) then we would leave people in darkness. I would say, as I have been pondering this saying lately, `I agree that we believe differently,` at this stage.

 

Also your explanation of your view of the Body of Christ & Israel, does help me see where you are coming from. That view is held by many, & some here on Worthy. It is amazing, have you found, that when we all start on a topic & disagreements come up that they (the difficulties) can all be traced back to one point that we disagree on.

 

Thus said you have rightly brought up the exact point that we disagree on. You believe the Body of Christ is a subset of Israel, while I believe that they are 2 different callings, 2 different groups with 2 different inheritances, yet all through Christ. There is no pressure for us to have to change each other`s beliefs, for I know, & I believe you do too, that the Holy Spirit is the one who is guiding the Body of Christ into all the truth of Christ & His purposes. He has led us this far with all the wondrous truths revealed & He will yet complete the work to bring the Body to full maturity in Christ.

 

This exact topic is the one that the Body of Christ has yet to be led into all the truth. That is why there is so much disagreement & confusion, as per Eschatology, as we can all see here on the different threads. People get weary from trying to explain their view, again & again, but I would encourage all, to rest in knowing that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all the truth. And as you so rightly said Retro, we need to have a teachable heart. I pray I do for I so desire to learn more & more of our precious Lord, in everyday life & throughout His word. I sense you do too bro.

 

`Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind & reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward (on top) call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

Let us therefore, as many as are perfect (mature) have his attitude; & if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;.....(Phil. 3: 13 - 15)

 

 

Blessings, Marilyn. 

Edited October 26, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

 

Happy Birthday for soon. I`ve just had mine & big numbers are looming up soon. So I really appreciate what you said about using the time wisely for what we have left. Glad you were not trying to be offensive, but it did seem as though I only had two options, learn or be disagreeable. As to `we agree to disagree.` I know what people mean by that phrase but as we are to speak the truth (in love - right attitude) then we would leave people in darkness. I would say, as I have been pondering this saying lately, `I agree that we believe differently,` at this stage.

 

Also your explanation of your view of the Body of Christ & Israel, does help me see where you are coming from. That view is held by many, & some here on Worthy. It is amazing, have you found, that when we all start on a topic & disagreements come up that they (the difficulties) can all be traced back to one point that we disagree on.

 

Thus said you have rightly brought up the exact point that we disagree on. You believe the Body of Christ is a subset of Israel, while I believe that they are 2 different callings, 2 different groups with 2 different inheritances, yet all through Christ. There is no pressure for us to have to change each other`s beliefs, for I know, & I believe you do too, that the Holy Spirit is the one who is guiding the Body of Christ into all the truth of Christ & His purposes. He has led us this far with all the wondrous truths revealed & He will yet complete the work to bring the Body to full maturity in Christ.

 

This exact topic is the one that the Body of Christ has yet to be led into all the truth. That is why there is so much disagreement & confusion, as per Eschatology, as we can all see here on the different threads. People get weary from trying to explain their view, again & again, but I would encourage all, to rest in knowing that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all the truth. And as you so rightly said Retro, we need to have a teachable heart. I pray I do for I so desire to learn more & more of our precious Lord, in everyday life & throughout His word. I sense you do too bro.

 

`Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind & reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward (on top) call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

Let us therefore, as many as are perfect (mature) have his attitude; & if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;.....(Phil. 3: 13 - 15)

 

 

Blessings, Marilyn. 

 

Thank you for those kind words and for understanding where we disagree. Please understand also that I come from a Premillennial, Pretribulational Rapturist, Independent, Fellowship Baptist background. As such, I, too, once believed as you do that the “Church” (the "Body of Christ") and Israel were two separate groups. It took years of study and re-thinking my position before I came to the conclusion I’ve drawn.

 

I became a believer in Yeshua`, that is, was born again, at the early age of 5 almost 6 years old. In fact, I was immersed - baptized - when I was 6, soon after my birthday. In two days, I’ll be 57 years old. My mom died when she was 50 back in 1983; so I feel as though I’m on “borrowed time.” She was a godly woman who had a wonderful testimony of being a prayer partner to those in need. Some would say that I’m a “godly man,” but I know my worst secrets and stay conscious of how low I could go. Furthermore, God knows me better than I do myself. Although I’m forgiven for past sins, I constantly pray for God’s wisdom, strength, and protection from myself so as not to “drive another nail in the hands of my Savior.”

 

I was a thinker all my life. My mother told me that one time I said to her that I was going to “sleep down now.” When questioned why I said it that way, I responded “Wake up; sleep down!” All the while I grew up, I went to Sunday School and church. (It wasn’t until I was 12 years old and had the mumps that I missed a service.) I developed a real affinity for the people about whose lives and challenges we were taught in the Bible stories. I loved to hear about Adam and Eve, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Gideon, Samson, Samuel, David, Elijah, Elisha, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, and the many others. I was taught that, in heaven, we could meet each one of them and ask them questions about their lives. I especially liked the stories of Solomon and his wisdom, and learned that if he could pray to God for wisdom and God gave him that wisdom, then we could do the same! So, when I was around 9 years old, I asked God for His wisdom. When I learned that James said ...

 

James 1:5

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

KJV

 

I was confident that God would answer my prayer. I believed God and have been doing so ever since.

 

When I was faced with the calamity of a person who was my hero falling into CHOOSING to sin, I began to question EVERYTHING I believed, except for two things: First, I knew God was real and was my Father; I had already met Him; and second, that He communicated to us through His Word. Throwing everything else out, I began to rebuild my belief-system. I read...

 

1 Samuel 3:19

19 And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.

KJV

 

... I asked God for His blessing to let none of my words fall to the ground, either. I learned that would ONLY be true if I would learn God’s Word, speak only His Word, and stay consistent in the study of His Word.

 

One building block at a time, God has led me to a system that is consistent throughout. I get tickled every time some new thought falls into its place like the right puzzle piece fitting all the surrounding pieces of the puzzle! I have not had a need to re-work my belief-system since I threw everything out and allowed the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) to lead me one piece at a time.

 

I am also a moderate Trekkie. Like Captain Kirk, I don’t believe in a no-win scenario. Between two choices, there is always the third choice! If you don’t want to “learn or be disagreeable,” CHANGE THE RULES! Believe it or not, I’m okay with that!

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

What a great testimony. Praise the Lord for godly parents. I too knew the Lord from a young age & still have the little bible I wanted at the age of 5 too. I was baptised in my teens & received the Holy Spirit`s infilling a few years later at a camp in the hills of New Zealand.

 

So we are both pretrib`s, well we have much in common. It just seems that we differ on the purpose of the Body of Christ. One day we shall know fully.

Now, not sure if you want to keep discussing.  However I will ask you -

 

`Since the Gentiles were able to come into Israel`s blessing in Old Testament days, what is different now?`

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

 

What a great testimony. Praise the Lord for godly parents. I too knew the Lord from a young age & still have the little bible I wanted at the age of 5 too. I was baptised in my teens & received the Holy Spirit`s infilling a few years later at a camp in the hills of New Zealand.

 

So we are both pretrib`s, well we have much in common. It just seems that we differ on the purpose of the Body of Christ. One day we shall know fully.

Now, not sure if you want to keep discussing.  However I will ask you -

 

`Since the Gentiles were able to come into Israel`s blessing in Old Testament days, what is different now?`

 

As I said, there is always the third choice. Sure, I’ll keep discussing. First, let me just inform you that I USED to be a pretrib. It’s hard to remain pretrib when you now believe that the first half of the 70th Seven of Daniel 9 was fulfilled in the Kingdom offer of the Messiah during His first advent, and the tribulation began in the first century and has continued ever since. The seven years of the 70th Seven is NOT synonymous with the tribulation or the Great Tribulation! The six purposes for the 70 Sevens of years are NOT compatible with the purpose for the tribulation (Greek: thlipsis = pressure). With that said, I not only cannot be pretrib, I also cannot be posttrib or pre-wrath. I now consider myself a form of partial preterist, because I have learned through the study of the Greek versions of Matthew, Mark, and Luke that SOME of the Olivet Discourse has been already fulfilled in the past. However, SOME of the Olivet Discourse is YET to be fulfilled. It is neither completely fulfilled nor is it all yet to be fulfilled. Both are extremes that do not fit the passages. Thus, I cannot be a full preterist. However, as a partial preterist, I can still consider myself a premillennialist. Labels. Aren’t they great?

 

Now, you asked, “`Since the Gentiles were able to come into Israel`s blessing in Old Testament days, what is different now?`” My answer is “NOTHING! That’s the beauty of it! The only difference is that now there can be so MANY MORE Gentiles than before!” 

 

It’s WRONG to think that Gentile believers somehow have a superiority to the Jews! Think about it: The “church” gets to go to “heaven,” while the Jews remain on earth during the Millennium? REALLY?! Now who’s being prejudiced?! And what happens to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? What happens to Adam, Enoch, and Noah? What happens to Samuel, David, Solomon, and all the prophets during the Millennium? Where do THEY go?! What happens to all those believers listed in the Faith chapter (Hebrews 11)? What happens to all those people about whom we were taught in Sunday School in those Bible stories? What happens to them during the Millennium?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,
 
That`s great we can still keep discussing & I hope & pray we can work through a few things together. Also sorry that I got your position wrong. Now to your comments & questions. The `70th week` I will leave for now but would like to discuss it some time. 
 
1. I asked about the `difference between the Gentiles coming into Israel`s blessing before (OT) & now,` & you said no difference, except more Gentiles.
Let`s look in God`s word to see if there is a difference.
 
In King Solomon`s time we read about his prayer to God -
 
`...Also concerning the foreigner who is not of Thy people Israel, when he comes from a far country for Thy name`s sake (for they will hear of Thy great name & Thy mighty hand, & of Thine outstretched arm); when he comes & prays toward this house, hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place, & do according to all for which the foreigner calls to Thee, in order that ALL the peoples of the earth may know Thy name, to fear Thee, as do Thy people Israel, & that they may know that this house which I have built is called by Thy name.` (1 Kings 8: 41 - 43)
 
`Now when the queen of Sheba heard about the fame of Solomon concerning the name of the Lord, she came......(& said) ..Blessed be the Lord your God who delighted in you to set you on the throne of Israel; because the Lord loved Israel forever, therefore He made you king, to do justice & righteousness.` (1 Kings 10: 1 & 9)
 
So there we see that the Gentiles could come & learn about God. This they did, but were still identified as Gentiles.
 
Now coming to the Body of Christ, this was a `mystery` hidden. Those who come into this `Body,` are recognised as no longer  either Jew or Gentile. We are a spiritual Body that is formed together by the Holy Spirit. There are however still people of the nations, Gentiles, & people of Israel. We see these 3 groups that are quite distinct.
 
2. You intimated that the church was just `Gentiles,`

`It’s WRONG to think that Gentile believers somehow have a superiority to the Jews! Think about it: The “church” gets to go to “heaven,” while the Jews remain on earth during the Millennium? REALLY?! Now who’s being prejudiced?!`

 

Of course we know that the church, the Body of Christ is made up of both Jews & Gentiles. So no prejudice.

 

 

 

3. You asked where I believe the `faith` people are in the millennium. God`s word clearly tells us, so let`s have a look -

 

`But you have come to Mount Zion......to the General Assembly....& to the spirits of righteous men made perfect...` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

 

`...Abraham (& others) were ......`looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect & builder is God.....All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them & having welcomed them from a distance, & having confessed that they were strangers & exiles on the earth.....But as it is, they desire a better country, that is a heavenly one......God...has prepared a city for them.` (Heb.11: 10,  13 - 16)

 

Thus we see these `spirits` of righteous men (& women) are waiting, & will still be waiting till God brings the New Jerusalem down from the third heaven to nearer the earth. This we read is after the Millennium & when God makes a new heaven (universe) & new earth.

 

`And I saw a new heaven & a new earth, for the first heaven & first earth passed away.....& I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down from God....` (Rev. 21: 1 & 2)

 

Hope those scriptures help us, retro. blessings, Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Persuaded]

Hi Persuaded,

---

Also with regard to Paul talking to his disciples - You said -

`You've used this argument before, that the verse is somehow for Paul's disciples. In reading (again) the whole context, I don't see where this idea comes from. Can you describe aspect of the passage limits the application to a subset of the letter's intended audience?`

Glad to see you remembered what I had said. When we read the context it becomes obvious that he is talking specifically to his disciples. Here is some of it.

`...or did I commit a sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you without charge? I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to serve you; & when I was present with you & was in need, I was not a burden to anyone. for when the brethren came from Macedonia, they fully supplied my need, & in everything I kept myself from being a burden to you & will continue to do so.` (2 Cor.11: 7 - 9)

Huh. I read that ^ and see him addressing the church at Corinth, even contrasting his relationship with them to other (otherwise equivalent) churches. I can usually see a rational argument that allows an alternate view, but I'm just missing yours, here.

I see Paul in ch10 forcefully reiterating his credentials, and summing up his authority by claiming in 11:2 in effect to be "the friend of the bridegroom" of John 3:29-

John 3:29 (KJV) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

And he continues to refute their presumption, that his teaching them in humility, freely, wasn't a sign of the weekness of his position. But I just don't see a shift in audience, nor a reason to restrict his (theological) message to a local audience.

And Persuaded,

You may like to find some scriptures also that tell us that the Body of Christ is on earth in the millennium. I agree with what you said about heaven. though.

To be honest, I don't have a strong opinion about the location of heaven, or the millennial location of the the church. I'm satisfied that it will be with Christ, and the rest becomes somewhat semantic. My interest in joining this thread was to comment on some particular points made, not necessarily to jump down the rabbit hole that the OT entails! Edited October 28, 2014 by Persuaded

[Marilyn C]

Hi Persuaded,

 

It seems we are both not understanding each other.  You said -
 

[quote]`Huh. I read that ^ and see him addressing the church at Corinth, even contrasting his relationship with them to other (otherwise equivalent) churches. I can usually see a rational argument that allows an alternate view, but I'm just missing yours, here.`

Edited October 28, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Persuaded]

Ah, I thought by "disciples" you were narrowing the audience, to a subset of Paul's addressees:

2 Corinthians 1:1 (NKJV) 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

I'd say the theological points of any of Paul's letters apply to the the "church of God" and "all the saints".

[achildofhis]

The   Body   of  Christ  is  still   around  .