THE SEVEN TRUMPETS,AND THE SEVEN VIALS.

[Salty]

Salty

 

Christ was referring to the generation before the Second Coming.  And this being a generation of Israel.  The first four are the beginning of birth pains.  The 70th Week follows these first four signs.  Therefore, they have nothing to do with the events during the 70th Week.  They are a precursor.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Sounds like you're assuming Daniel's symbolic final 70th week is only about a 3.5 year period. If you look at Dan.9:27 closely, you'll discover it's covering a period of 7 symbolic years split in half.

 

As I've said before about the Seals in Rev.6, they are not all in chronological order. For example, the rider on the white horse is the first one given, however, the rider on the white horse, whether one believes is Christ or an imposter (the Antichrist), that does not occur at the start of those signs, even though that is how John was given that vision.

 

Likewise in Matt.24 and Mark 13, one of the first signs our Lord Jesus gave was to not allow any man to deceive us, and then the subject of many false Christs coming in His Name. That subject about the idea of a false Christ is covered in detail there later in conjunction with the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel (per Matt.24:23-26). So Jesus gave the warning against deception by a false one as one of the first signs in His Olivet Discourse also, which parallels the given order of the 1st seal in Rev.6 about the rider on the white horse.

 

And that event of a false one coming to sit in the temple of God (in the "secret chambers" some will say), to proclaim himself as God, and end the daily sacrifice and place the abomination that makes desolate, is... the very subject in Daniel 8, 9, 11, and 12 involving the final 70th week.

 

Thus I only see your disconnect between those related events as being Biblically unfounded.

[Montana Marv]

 

Salty

 

Christ was referring to the generation before the Second Coming.  And this being a generation of Israel.  The first four are the beginning of birth pains.  The 70th Week follows these first four signs.  Therefore, they have nothing to do with the events during the 70th Week.  They are a precursor.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Sounds like you're assuming Daniel's symbolic final 70th week is only about a 3.5 year period. If you look at Dan.9:27 closely, you'll discover it's covering a period of 7 symbolic years split in half.

 

As I've said before about the Seals in Rev.6, they are not all in chronological order. For example, the rider on the white horse is the first one given, however, the rider on the white horse, whether one believes is Christ or an imposter (the Antichrist), that does not occur at the start of those signs, even though that is how John was given that vision.

 

Likewise in Matt.24 and Mark 13, one of the first signs our Lord Jesus gave was to not allow any man to deceive us, and then the subject of many false Christs coming in His Name. That subject about the idea of a false Christ is covered in detail there later in conjunction with the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel (per Matt.24:23-26). So Jesus gave the warning against deception by a false one as one of the first signs in His Olivet Discourse also, which parallels the given order of the 1st seal in Rev.6 about the rider on the white horse.

 

And that event of a false one coming to sit in the temple of God (in the "secret chambers" some will say), to proclaim himself as God, and end the daily sacrifice and place the abomination that makes desolate, is... the very subject in Daniel 8, 9, 11, and 12 involving the final 70th week.

 

Thus I only see your disconnect between those related events as being Biblically unfounded.

 

Salty

 

The 70th Week is seven years.  3 1/2 years of peace, then 3 1/2 years of chaos after the A/D is set up in the Temple on the Holy Mount in Jerusalem.

 

Do you have a problem with numbers.  Rev 6:1-8 - I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals; The rider on the White Horse.  When the Lamb opened the second seal;  The rider on the Red Horse.  When the Lamb opened the third seal;  The rider on the Black Horse.  When the Lamb opened the fourth seal;  The rider on the Pale Horse.

 

How can someone miss this sequence.

 

Here is another key.  Matt 24:14 - And this Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.    The spreading of the Gospel starts with the Great Commission (Acts 1:8);  All Believers are included.  But the proclaiming of the Gospel then is given or transferred to the angel flying in midair (Rev 14:6) - Why because the Church is no longer present on the Earth.  One must figure out when this transfer occurred.

 

The first four signs of the Olivet Discourse are ongoing.  Earthquakes and Famines are on the increase.  This is the environment leading up to the 70th Week.  The 70 Weeks of Daniel are all about Israel.  70 Sevens have been decreed for your people and your holy city to:

 

The A/C helps or gives the OK to have Israel build a new Temple.  The first 3 1/2 year period.  The Two Witnesses make their appearance near the end of this period, then the enraged A/C sets up the A/D in the newly built Temple at the mid point.  And this begins the final 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week.

 

Everything I have brought up fits nicely with Scripture.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

 

 

Salty

 

Christ was referring to the generation before the Second Coming.  And this being a generation of Israel.  The first four are the beginning of birth pains.  The 70th Week follows these first four signs.  Therefore, they have nothing to do with the events during the 70th Week.  They are a precursor.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Sounds like you're assuming Daniel's symbolic final 70th week is only about a 3.5 year period. If you look at Dan.9:27 closely, you'll discover it's covering a period of 7 symbolic years split in half.

 

As I've said before about the Seals in Rev.6, they are not all in chronological order. For example, the rider on the white horse is the first one given, however, the rider on the white horse, whether one believes is Christ or an imposter (the Antichrist), that does not occur at the start of those signs, even though that is how John was given that vision.

 

Likewise in Matt.24 and Mark 13, one of the first signs our Lord Jesus gave was to not allow any man to deceive us, and then the subject of many false Christs coming in His Name. That subject about the idea of a false Christ is covered in detail there later in conjunction with the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel (per Matt.24:23-26). So Jesus gave the warning against deception by a false one as one of the first signs in His Olivet Discourse also, which parallels the given order of the 1st seal in Rev.6 about the rider on the white horse.

 

And that event of a false one coming to sit in the temple of God (in the "secret chambers" some will say), to proclaim himself as God, and end the daily sacrifice and place the abomination that makes desolate, is... the very subject in Daniel 8, 9, 11, and 12 involving the final 70th week.

 

Thus I only see your disconnect between those related events as being Biblically unfounded.

 

Salty

 

The 70th Week is seven years.  3 1/2 years of peace, then 3 1/2 years of chaos after the A/D is set up in the Temple on the Holy Mount in Jerusalem.

 

Do you have a problem with numbers.  Rev 6:1-8 - I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals; The rider on the White Horse.  When the Lamb opened the second seal;  The rider on the Red Horse.  When the Lamb opened the third seal;  The rider on the Black Horse.  When the Lamb opened the fourth seal;  The rider on the Pale Horse.

 

How can someone miss this sequence.

 

Here is another key.  Matt 24:14 - And this Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.    The spreading of the Gospel starts with the Great Commission (Acts 1:8);  All Believers are included.  But the proclaiming of the Gospel then is given or transferred to the angel flying in midair (Rev 14:6) - Why because the Church is no longer present on the Earth.  One must figure out when this transfer occurred.

 

The first four signs of the Olivet Discourse are ongoing.  Earthquakes and Famines are on the increase.  This is the environment leading up to the 70th Week.  The 70 Weeks of Daniel are all about Israel.  70 Sevens have been decreed for your people and your holy city to:

 

The A/C helps or gives the OK to have Israel build a new Temple.  The first 3 1/2 year period.  The Two Witnesses make their appearance near the end of this period, then the enraged A/C sets up the A/D in the newly built Temple at the mid point.  And this begins the final 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week.

 

Everything I have brought up fits nicely with Scripture.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Well, we agree on the layout of the 70th final "one week". But I do not agree with you that those signs our Lord Jesus gave there in His Olivet Discourse began with the great commission in His Apostle's days.

 

Notice the context in which the following is given...

 

Mark 13

⁹ But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

¹⁰ And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

¹¹ But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

¹² Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

¹³ And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

One can try to apply that to the Apostle's days, because they were persecuted like that. But this is given mainly as a sign for the very end, because notice that verse 10 is given in context with that being delivered up for the end. That's about the 5th Seal event during that tribulation (time of "affliction" of v.19).

 

Some of us during the coming tribulation when the false messiah is setup are going to be delivered up to councils and synagogues in order to give a Witness for Christ against them by The Holy Spirit. The Greek word there for "publish" in verse 10 also has the meaning like a town crier who gets up on a box like a herald. I believe these councils will be televised over all nations in that time.

 

And once again, when our Lord Jesus said this...

 

Mark 13

²⁹ So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

³⁰ Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

 

... He was speaking about the final generation on earth that will see His second coming, not the generation of His Apostles. That "when ye shall see these things come to pass" is about the final generation seeing all... these signs in their specific generation, the generation of the end of this world. I believe we are in that generation now. And it is the final generation that will experience the timing of the seals, trumpets, and vials, not any earlier generation.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

If this is NOT one long vision, please pick out place where you see one vision ending and another beginning. I find 6 place where John used something like "after this" I saw...

 

 

It seems much more likely to me that this is one long vision. But even if it is not, it makes more sense that God would put things in sequence, as He did in Mathew 24.

 

If the day of the Lord does not START with the 6th seal, then where do you see the beginning? It seems you find several endings but you beginning.

 

When Paul mentions the day of the Lord, He certainly ties it to the rapture. I think you and I agree there. But we disagree as to when that is.

 

I don't think you have answered the impossible question to answer for your theory: HOW and WHEN will you get to the marriage and supper? Was it your theory that He comes TWICE at the end; first to take His bride to the marriage, and then He comes again for the battle of Armageddon?

 

LAMAD

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean about putting "things in sequence". If Revelation is a series of visions about the end-times, then they could overlap and not be in a time sequence.

 

Rev 1-3  a prophetic message to the churches

Rev 4     a vision of heaven

Rev 5 until Rev 8:1   a vision about the 7 seals ending with the second coming (seal 6)  and silence in heaven (seal 7)

Rev 8:2 - Rev 11      a vision about the 7 angels with 7 trumpets ending with the second coming (kingdoms belong to Christ)

Rev 12   vision about Satan and Israel also focussing on the great tribulation (3.5 years)

Rev 13   vision about the beast , also focussing on the great tribulation (3.5 years) 

Rev 14  vision about various end-times events

Rev 15-16  vision about the seven bowls of wrath ending in Armageddon and the great earthquake (second coming events)

Rev 17-21  vision starting with the beast and whore city (Rev 17/18), Rev19 refers to the 2nd coming, and Rev 20-21 after the 2nd coming

 

Context shows us that a new vision is introduced.  Sometimes the phrase "and then I saw" indicates the new vision, but sometimes its only the new context and new symbols which indicate that its a new vision.  So in total, I believe there are 9 separate visions, the first two are not focussed on the end-times, the other 7 concern various aspects of the end-times. (Satan's role/ antichrist's role /the evil city's role/ Armageddon/ seals / trumpets/ bowls)

 

Putting things in sequence, in my mind, is the time sequence that events will happen when they begin to take place. For example, the beginning of the 70th week written before the end of the week. The midpoint of the week before the end of the week. If we read most history books, then begin with older events and end up with more recent events. If we read about Word War 2, most books would be written in time sequence, and events took place from 1939 on through 1945. When Jesus gave his Olivet Discourse on the end times, he began with the church age, then jumped right into the middle of the 70th week with the abomination, then the days of great tribulation, and finally His coming after the days of great tribulation. In other words, Jesus spoke of these events in the same order in which they will take place.

 

in Rev 1, John is before Jesus, and is told to write. Chapters 2-3 are Messages he is to write to each church of the 7 churches Jesus mentioned. In chapter 4 we see a transition: John wrote, " After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven..."  John is in fact called up to heaven to be shown things to come. "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven..." This  is the beginning of His vision, in my opinion. In chapers 4 and 5 it is a vision that was history to John, because John saw in this vision the moment Jesus ascended back into heaven, around 32 AD. This vision of the throne room does not end, for John sees Jesus begin to break the seals. At that point in time, the first 5 seals had already been broken in reality, since it was around 95 AD and the church had been sent out around 60 years previous to John seeing this vision. I believe the vision turned to the future for John between the 5th and 6th seal. In fact, I think that is still where we are today. But this vision does not end.

 

In chapter 7 the same vision continues: " And after these things I saw four angels...." John uses a phrase like this as a transitional phrase 5 or 6 times in Revelation. Is this a NEW vision? I don't think so. He is continuing to see the same vision. John takes an active part in this vision, speaking with someone. Chapter 8 begins "And when he had opened the seventh seal." I still don't see a break in the first vision; it is just continuing.

 

The same vision continues with John seeing the first 6 trumpets. John wrote in 9:17, "And thus I saw the horses in the vision..." According to John, it is the same vision.

 

I just cannot see different visions with breaks between. I believe this is one long vision, written in the exact order in which these things will take place. As you said, our views are too far apart. Time will soon show us in reality the events John wrote about.

 

LAMAD

 

 

 

The bible isn't most books. Some history books are written from various perspectives,  eg regarding WW2 you read the Nazi view, then the allied view, the technology view, the battle for air supremacy. In the end we have a view of ww2 from various perspectives rather than just a chronology.   It's not hard to understand that Revelation involves 7 different end-times visions from various perspectives. To believe otherwise would result in ridiculous views like the leaders of this world run and hide in caves before God at the 6th seal, then crawl out the caves and carry on with their lives. Or the even more ridiculous view that after the kingdoms of the world become Christ's at the seventh trumpet, God still pours out bowls of wrath on Christ's kingdom. Why would God do that??     Your view makes no sense, and you are not facing that fact.

[Montana Marv]

Salty

 

I have said, the First four of the Olivet Discourse have been ongoing.  Kind of like make a Denver Omelet.  In one pan you do the Mushrooms, meats, peppers and onions.  You grate some (say) 5 year old cheese.  In another pan one puts in the scrambled eggs (fresh or one week old).  You then turn the eggs over and put in the cheeses and other sauteed ingredients and fold. The generation that sees this Denver Omelet, sees the final product.  The generation that sees all these things come together is the generation to see the 70th Week.  Some may have been going on for 2000 years, others for 200 years, others for the past 40 to 60 years.  Not until they have all been together can this generation become viable.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

Hi LAMAD,

 

No error made. What is written is written. John wrote with GOD GIVEN chronology.

The visions themselves were given chronologically, yes, but not the order of events.

No changes or rearranging is necessary.

No changes were made LAMAD, and as for the rearranging, the information within the verses did that all on their own as i already explained.

if you THINK rearranging is necessary, it will be up to you to PROVE such a theory.

I will go over it again for you...but first:

Of course, there are some parenthesis that are an exception to this rule. For example, 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis about the birth of the Lord Jesus somewhere around 2 BC. of course that would not fit in John's 70th week chronology. It is why it is a parenthesis.

Hmmm, I see, first give whatever conflicts with a theory a name, then, include the confliction as though it were a mere part of that theory all along...and...shazzam...a contradiction no more!! ....

 

Neat trick...just one problem though...it is only a trick...

Because here is an example of Parenthesis:

 

Its a section in a sentence that only adds to the sentence, and would still make sense without it. A parenthesis can sometimes be seperated from a sentence by commas or brackets.

 

What you described was not parenthesis, LAMAD, but a personal view.

 

Yes, this statement of yours was addressed. Perhaps I did not "get it" and you need to make it clearer. Please, go over it again. Or, perhaps I did get it, and disagreed.

Perhaps i should go over it again because you didn't get it?

 

OR

 

Perhaps i should go over it again because you did get it, yet disagreed?

 

Hmmm....

 

It is OBVIOUS what the plagues are: they are what happens on earth when an associated vial is poured out. The plague then, for example, is the sea turning to blood. It is accomplished with the wrath of God (the vial) on an unrepentant world. The sea turning to blood then is not the vial, it is the plague, accomplished WITH the vial. This is showing us the REASON why God is turning the sea into blood. It is His WRATH.

LAMAD, i'm sure you understand what plagues are...no need to explian.

The trumpets at this time are OVER and completed. The vials and associated plagues are a NEW SET of judgments, much worse than the trumpets.

Here is where i disagree.

 

Now the interesting thing out of this...is this...

 

If we go by your method of chronological order, then you, by your own admittance, have no other choice but to agree with me...

 

So, LAMAD, I will explain again...

 

Rev 15:5 And after that i looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

 

Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

 

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

 

Did you notice it was within a chronological order LAMAD?

 

So...one last time...

 

1 Seven angels come out of a temple...v5

 

2 Seven angels having the seven plagues...having means that the plagues are still on their person...that means unused...so seven angels come out of a temple with seven unblown trumpets (plagues)..v6

 

3 THEN one of the four beasts gives the seven angels, seven vials...v7

 

And that is it LAMAD!! ...seven angels come out of a temple with seven trumpets, which they have not yet used (having), and before they even use them, they are given seven golden vials...which means that each angel has one trumpet and one vial each.

 

And since they are in a chronological order that obeys your demand...and within the same chapter...I am glad to say that we are now in full agreement...wouldn't you?

 

I'm interested to hear your response whenever you are ready..

 

Cheers LAMAD.

It is all human reasoning and not at all the intent of the Author, the HOLY Spirit. That is my response. I doubt you could find even one commentary that would agree with you.

 

The visions themselves were given chronologically, yes, but not the order of events.

This is your opinion. You have yet to prove anything.

 

the information within the verses did that all on their own  NOT!

 

Hmmm, I see, first give whatever conflicts with a theory a name, then, include the confliction as though it were a mere part of that theory all along...and...shazzam...a contradiction no more!! ....

Neat trick...just one problem though...it is only a trick...

No trick; just common sense. Rev 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis because it is about the birth of Christ written in a MIDPOINT chapter. If John had written it anywhere else, like farther down in the same chapter, the narrative would go from the end of chapter 11 right to 12:6, and it would make perfect sense that way. The abomination happens on earth and the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven AT THE SAME MOMENT in time, to mark that event in heaven and in the book. Then, one second after, those in Judea begin to flee, exactly as Jesus said they should. You should understand, the Greek language had NO PUNCTUATION MARKS. We determine a parenthesis not by the presence of parenthesis marks, but by the context.  I know that 12:6 comes sequentially only one or two seconds after the 7th trumpet. How long would it take someone that sees the abomination to remember what Jesus said and begin to run?

 

It is not a parenthesis because it conflicts with anything; it is a parenthesis because of the surrounding text.

 

If we go by your method of chronological order, then you, by your own admittance, have no other choice but to agree with me...

WOW! This I have to see!

 

Certainly verses 5, 6, & 7 are in chronoligical order. It is the very order that John wrote. However, I must remind you that the trumpets are written in chapter 9, not chapter 15.

 

2 Seven angels having the seven plagues...having means that the plagues are still on their person...that means unused...so seven angels come out of a temple with seven unblown trumpets (plagues)..v6

 

YOU ADDED to what was written. That is not wise. Yes, I agree, they had the plagues before they were given the vials of wrath. So what? You cannot use that to tie this back to trumpet judgments that will have already happened perhaps two years before.

 

the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues

 

It does not say trumpets, it says PLAGUES; you are seeing through preconceived glasses. Please, take them off so you can see clearly what it written!

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

Salty

 

I have said, the First four of the Olivet Discourse have been ongoing.  Kind of like make a Denver Omelet.  In one pan you do the Mushrooms, meats, peppers and onions.  You grate some (say) 5 year old cheese.  In another pan one puts in the scrambled eggs (fresh or one week old).  You then turn the eggs over and put in the cheeses and other sauteed ingredients and fold. The generation that sees this Denver Omelet, sees the final product.  The generation that sees all these things come together is the generation to see the 70th Week.  Some may have been going on for 2000 years, others for 200 years, others for the past 40 to 60 years.  Not until they have all been together can this generation become viable.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I do not hold to that, even while I realize how some interpret the not one stone on top of another to mean the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by the Roman army. Since there will be another temple built in last days Jerusalem in order for the coming Antichrist to sit in per the last days prophecies, that not one stone upon another sign will be for the day of Christ's coming to destroy that temple and the role of that false messiah in Jerusalem. You will then have to go back and cook another omelet.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

If this is NOT one long vision, please pick out place where you see one vision ending and another beginning. I find 6 place where John used something like "after this" I saw...

 

 

It seems much more likely to me that this is one long vision. But even if it is not, it makes more sense that God would put things in sequence, as He did in Mathew 24.

 

If the day of the Lord does not START with the 6th seal, then where do you see the beginning? It seems you find several endings but you beginning.

 

When Paul mentions the day of the Lord, He certainly ties it to the rapture. I think you and I agree there. But we disagree as to when that is.

 

I don't think you have answered the impossible question to answer for your theory: HOW and WHEN will you get to the marriage and supper? Was it your theory that He comes TWICE at the end; first to take His bride to the marriage, and then He comes again for the battle of Armageddon?

 

LAMAD

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean about putting "things in sequence". If Revelation is a series of visions about the end-times, then they could overlap and not be in a time sequence.

 

Rev 1-3  a prophetic message to the churches

Rev 4     a vision of heaven

Rev 5 until Rev 8:1   a vision about the 7 seals ending with the second coming (seal 6)  and silence in heaven (seal 7)

Rev 8:2 - Rev 11      a vision about the 7 angels with 7 trumpets ending with the second coming (kingdoms belong to Christ)

Rev 12   vision about Satan and Israel also focussing on the great tribulation (3.5 years)

Rev 13   vision about the beast , also focussing on the great tribulation (3.5 years) 

Rev 14  vision about various end-times events

Rev 15-16  vision about the seven bowls of wrath ending in Armageddon and the great earthquake (second coming events)

Rev 17-21  vision starting with the beast and whore city (Rev 17/18), Rev19 refers to the 2nd coming, and Rev 20-21 after the 2nd coming

 

Context shows us that a new vision is introduced.  Sometimes the phrase "and then I saw" indicates the new vision, but sometimes its only the new context and new symbols which indicate that its a new vision.  So in total, I believe there are 9 separate visions, the first two are not focussed on the end-times, the other 7 concern various aspects of the end-times. (Satan's role/ antichrist's role /the evil city's role/ Armageddon/ seals / trumpets/ bowls)

 

Putting things in sequence, in my mind, is the time sequence that events will happen when they begin to take place. For example, the beginning of the 70th week written before the end of the week. The midpoint of the week before the end of the week. If we read most history books, then begin with older events and end up with more recent events. If we read about Word War 2, most books would be written in time sequence, and events took place from 1939 on through 1945. When Jesus gave his Olivet Discourse on the end times, he began with the church age, then jumped right into the middle of the 70th week with the abomination, then the days of great tribulation, and finally His coming after the days of great tribulation. In other words, Jesus spoke of these events in the same order in which they will take place.

 

in Rev 1, John is before Jesus, and is told to write. Chapters 2-3 are Messages he is to write to each church of the 7 churches Jesus mentioned. In chapter 4 we see a transition: John wrote, " After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven..."  John is in fact called up to heaven to be shown things to come. "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven..." This  is the beginning of His vision, in my opinion. In chapers 4 and 5 it is a vision that was history to John, because John saw in this vision the moment Jesus ascended back into heaven, around 32 AD. This vision of the throne room does not end, for John sees Jesus begin to break the seals. At that point in time, the first 5 seals had already been broken in reality, since it was around 95 AD and the church had been sent out around 60 years previous to John seeing this vision. I believe the vision turned to the future for John between the 5th and 6th seal. In fact, I think that is still where we are today. But this vision does not end.

 

In chapter 7 the same vision continues: " And after these things I saw four angels...." John uses a phrase like this as a transitional phrase 5 or 6 times in Revelation. Is this a NEW vision? I don't think so. He is continuing to see the same vision. John takes an active part in this vision, speaking with someone. Chapter 8 begins "And when he had opened the seventh seal." I still don't see a break in the first vision; it is just continuing.

 

The same vision continues with John seeing the first 6 trumpets. John wrote in 9:17, "And thus I saw the horses in the vision..." According to John, it is the same vision.

 

I just cannot see different visions with breaks between. I believe this is one long vision, written in the exact order in which these things will take place. As you said, our views are too far apart. Time will soon show us in reality the events John wrote about.

 

LAMAD

 

 

 

The bible isn't most books. Some history books are written from various perspectives,  eg regarding WW2 you read the Nazi view, then the allied view, the technology view, the battle for air supremacy. In the end we have a view of ww2 from various perspectives rather than just a chronology.   It's not hard to understand that Revelation involves 7 different end-times visions from various perspectives. To believe otherwise would result in ridiculous views like the leaders of this world run and hide in caves before God at the 6th seal, then crawl out the caves and carry on with their lives. Or the even more ridiculous view that after the kingdoms of the world become Christ's at the seventh trumpet, God still pours out bowls of wrath on Christ's kingdom. Why would God do that??     Your view makes no sense, and you are not facing that fact.

 

My view makes perfect sense to me and untold millions of other pretrib believers, and even some of the commentators. HOW LONG did it take those in the US to get back to "normal living" after 9/11? The Sunday after, my church was filled to capacity. My guess is most others were too. Yet within a month everything was forgotten and life went on. That is just human nature. So people being scared nearly to death at the first worldwide earthquake, and then getting on with life a few weeks later is just NORMAL.

 

What KIND of God do we serve? How could He possibly destroy the earth if the earth was not under His rulership to destroy? In my mind the vials would have to wait until the kingdoms of the world were HIS to work with. Why does it not make sense? Old Testament prophets tell us that God's PLAN for the Day of the Lord is to destroy the earth.  It is my guess that preconceived glasses are causing this to NOT make sense as written.

 

My point with history books is considering EACH book separately. Most are written in a time sequence as much as possible. It is just the way most history is written.

 

I guess we will never agree on these things until they come to pass, and you see they will happen just as John has written them.

 

LAMAD

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

 

If this is NOT one long vision, please pick out place where you see one vision ending and another beginning. I find 6 place where John used something like "after this" I saw...

 

 

It seems much more likely to me that this is one long vision. But even if it is not, it makes more sense that God would put things in sequence, as He did in Mathew 24.

 

If the day of the Lord does not START with the 6th seal, then where do you see the beginning? It seems you find several endings but you beginning.

 

When Paul mentions the day of the Lord, He certainly ties it to the rapture. I think you and I agree there. But we disagree as to when that is.

 

I don't think you have answered the impossible question to answer for your theory: HOW and WHEN will you get to the marriage and supper? Was it your theory that He comes TWICE at the end; first to take His bride to the marriage, and then He comes again for the battle of Armageddon?

 

LAMAD

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean about putting "things in sequence". If Revelation is a series of visions about the end-times, then they could overlap and not be in a time sequence.

 

Rev 1-3  a prophetic message to the churches

Rev 4     a vision of heaven

Rev 5 until Rev 8:1   a vision about the 7 seals ending with the second coming (seal 6)  and silence in heaven (seal 7)

Rev 8:2 - Rev 11      a vision about the 7 angels with 7 trumpets ending with the second coming (kingdoms belong to Christ)

Rev 12   vision about Satan and Israel also focussing on the great tribulation (3.5 years)

Rev 13   vision about the beast , also focussing on the great tribulation (3.5 years) 

Rev 14  vision about various end-times events

Rev 15-16  vision about the seven bowls of wrath ending in Armageddon and the great earthquake (second coming events)

Rev 17-21  vision starting with the beast and whore city (Rev 17/18), Rev19 refers to the 2nd coming, and Rev 20-21 after the 2nd coming

 

Context shows us that a new vision is introduced.  Sometimes the phrase "and then I saw" indicates the new vision, but sometimes its only the new context and new symbols which indicate that its a new vision.  So in total, I believe there are 9 separate visions, the first two are not focussed on the end-times, the other 7 concern various aspects of the end-times. (Satan's role/ antichrist's role /the evil city's role/ Armageddon/ seals / trumpets/ bowls)

 

Putting things in sequence, in my mind, is the time sequence that events will happen when they begin to take place. For example, the beginning of the 70th week written before the end of the week. The midpoint of the week before the end of the week. If we read most history books, then begin with older events and end up with more recent events. If we read about Word War 2, most books would be written in time sequence, and events took place from 1939 on through 1945. When Jesus gave his Olivet Discourse on the end times, he began with the church age, then jumped right into the middle of the 70th week with the abomination, then the days of great tribulation, and finally His coming after the days of great tribulation. In other words, Jesus spoke of these events in the same order in which they will take place.

 

in Rev 1, John is before Jesus, and is told to write. Chapters 2-3 are Messages he is to write to each church of the 7 churches Jesus mentioned. In chapter 4 we see a transition: John wrote, " After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven..."  John is in fact called up to heaven to be shown things to come. "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven..." This  is the beginning of His vision, in my opinion. In chapers 4 and 5 it is a vision that was history to John, because John saw in this vision the moment Jesus ascended back into heaven, around 32 AD. This vision of the throne room does not end, for John sees Jesus begin to break the seals. At that point in time, the first 5 seals had already been broken in reality, since it was around 95 AD and the church had been sent out around 60 years previous to John seeing this vision. I believe the vision turned to the future for John between the 5th and 6th seal. In fact, I think that is still where we are today. But this vision does not end.

 

In chapter 7 the same vision continues: " And after these things I saw four angels...." John uses a phrase like this as a transitional phrase 5 or 6 times in Revelation. Is this a NEW vision? I don't think so. He is continuing to see the same vision. John takes an active part in this vision, speaking with someone. Chapter 8 begins "And when he had opened the seventh seal." I still don't see a break in the first vision; it is just continuing.

 

The same vision continues with John seeing the first 6 trumpets. John wrote in 9:17, "And thus I saw the horses in the vision..." According to John, it is the same vision.

 

I just cannot see different visions with breaks between. I believe this is one long vision, written in the exact order in which these things will take place. As you said, our views are too far apart. Time will soon show us in reality the events John wrote about.

 

LAMAD

 

 

 

The bible isn't most books. Some history books are written from various perspectives,  eg regarding WW2 you read the Nazi view, then the allied view, the technology view, the battle for air supremacy. In the end we have a view of ww2 from various perspectives rather than just a chronology.   It's not hard to understand that Revelation involves 7 different end-times visions from various perspectives. To believe otherwise would result in ridiculous views like the leaders of this world run and hide in caves before God at the 6th seal, then crawl out the caves and carry on with their lives. Or the even more ridiculous view that after the kingdoms of the world become Christ's at the seventh trumpet, God still pours out bowls of wrath on Christ's kingdom. Why would God do that??     Your view makes no sense, and you are not facing that fact.

 

My view makes perfect sense to me and untold millions of other pretrib believers, and even some of the commentators. HOW LONG did it take those in the US to get back to "normal living" after 9/11? The Sunday after, my church was filled to capacity. My guess is most others were too. Yet within a month everything was forgotten and life went on. That is just human nature. So people being scared nearly to death at the first worldwide earthquake, and then getting on with life a few weeks later is just NORMAL.

 

What KIND of God do we serve? How could He possibly destroy the earth if the earth was not under His rulership to destroy? In my mind the vials would have to wait until the kingdoms of the world were HIS to work with. Why does it not make sense? Old Testament prophets tell us that God's PLAN for the Day of the Lord is to destroy the earth.  It is my guess that preconceived glasses are causing this to NOT make sense as written.

 

My point with history books is considering EACH book separately. Most are written in a time sequence as much as possible. It is just the way most history is written.

 

I guess we will never agree on these things until they come to pass, and you see they will happen just as John has written them.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Do you believe the tribulation is 10.5 years long?   You say that Revelation will unfold in sequence, yet Rev 11 mentions a 3.5 year period, Rev 12 mentions a 3.5 year period, and Revelation 13 mentions a 3.5 year period.  To me there are obvious overlaps in Revelation that you do not seem to admit to.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

 

If this is NOT one long vision, please pick out place where you see one vision ending and another beginning. I find 6 place where John used something like "after this" I saw...

 

 

It seems much more likely to me that this is one long vision. But even if it is not, it makes more sense that God would put things in sequence, as He did in Mathew 24.

 

If the day of the Lord does not START with the 6th seal, then where do you see the beginning? It seems you find several endings but you beginning.

 

When Paul mentions the day of the Lord, He certainly ties it to the rapture. I think you and I agree there. But we disagree as to when that is.

 

I don't think you have answered the impossible question to answer for your theory: HOW and WHEN will you get to the marriage and supper? Was it your theory that He comes TWICE at the end; first to take His bride to the marriage, and then He comes again for the battle of Armageddon?

 

LAMAD

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean about putting "things in sequence". If Revelation is a series of visions about the end-times, then they could overlap and not be in a time sequence.

 

Rev 1-3  a prophetic message to the churches

Rev 4     a vision of heaven

Rev 5 until Rev 8:1   a vision about the 7 seals ending with the second coming (seal 6)  and silence in heaven (seal 7)

Rev 8:2 - Rev 11      a vision about the 7 angels with 7 trumpets ending with the second coming (kingdoms belong to Christ)

Rev 12   vision about Satan and Israel also focussing on the great tribulation (3.5 years)

Rev 13   vision about the beast , also focussing on the great tribulation (3.5 years) 

Rev 14  vision about various end-times events

Rev 15-16  vision about the seven bowls of wrath ending in Armageddon and the great earthquake (second coming events)

Rev 17-21  vision starting with the beast and whore city (Rev 17/18), Rev19 refers to the 2nd coming, and Rev 20-21 after the 2nd coming

 

Context shows us that a new vision is introduced.  Sometimes the phrase "and then I saw" indicates the new vision, but sometimes its only the new context and new symbols which indicate that its a new vision.  So in total, I believe there are 9 separate visions, the first two are not focussed on the end-times, the other 7 concern various aspects of the end-times. (Satan's role/ antichrist's role /the evil city's role/ Armageddon/ seals / trumpets/ bowls)

 

Putting things in sequence, in my mind, is the time sequence that events will happen when they begin to take place. For example, the beginning of the 70th week written before the end of the week. The midpoint of the week before the end of the week. If we read most history books, then begin with older events and end up with more recent events. If we read about Word War 2, most books would be written in time sequence, and events took place from 1939 on through 1945. When Jesus gave his Olivet Discourse on the end times, he began with the church age, then jumped right into the middle of the 70th week with the abomination, then the days of great tribulation, and finally His coming after the days of great tribulation. In other words, Jesus spoke of these events in the same order in which they will take place.

 

in Rev 1, John is before Jesus, and is told to write. Chapters 2-3 are Messages he is to write to each church of the 7 churches Jesus mentioned. In chapter 4 we see a transition: John wrote, " After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven..."  John is in fact called up to heaven to be shown things to come. "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven..." This  is the beginning of His vision, in my opinion. In chapers 4 and 5 it is a vision that was history to John, because John saw in this vision the moment Jesus ascended back into heaven, around 32 AD. This vision of the throne room does not end, for John sees Jesus begin to break the seals. At that point in time, the first 5 seals had already been broken in reality, since it was around 95 AD and the church had been sent out around 60 years previous to John seeing this vision. I believe the vision turned to the future for John between the 5th and 6th seal. In fact, I think that is still where we are today. But this vision does not end.

 

In chapter 7 the same vision continues: " And after these things I saw four angels...." John uses a phrase like this as a transitional phrase 5 or 6 times in Revelation. Is this a NEW vision? I don't think so. He is continuing to see the same vision. John takes an active part in this vision, speaking with someone. Chapter 8 begins "And when he had opened the seventh seal." I still don't see a break in the first vision; it is just continuing.

 

The same vision continues with John seeing the first 6 trumpets. John wrote in 9:17, "And thus I saw the horses in the vision..." According to John, it is the same vision.

 

I just cannot see different visions with breaks between. I believe this is one long vision, written in the exact order in which these things will take place. As you said, our views are too far apart. Time will soon show us in reality the events John wrote about.

 

LAMAD

 

 

 

The bible isn't most books. Some history books are written from various perspectives,  eg regarding WW2 you read the Nazi view, then the allied view, the technology view, the battle for air supremacy. In the end we have a view of ww2 from various perspectives rather than just a chronology.   It's not hard to understand that Revelation involves 7 different end-times visions from various perspectives. To believe otherwise would result in ridiculous views like the leaders of this world run and hide in caves before God at the 6th seal, then crawl out the caves and carry on with their lives. Or the even more ridiculous view that after the kingdoms of the world become Christ's at the seventh trumpet, God still pours out bowls of wrath on Christ's kingdom. Why would God do that??     Your view makes no sense, and you are not facing that fact.

 

My view makes perfect sense to me and untold millions of other pretrib believers, and even some of the commentators. HOW LONG did it take those in the US to get back to "normal living" after 9/11? The Sunday after, my church was filled to capacity. My guess is most others were too. Yet within a month everything was forgotten and life went on. That is just human nature. So people being scared nearly to death at the first worldwide earthquake, and then getting on with life a few weeks later is just NORMAL.

 

What KIND of God do we serve? How could He possibly destroy the earth if the earth was not under His rulership to destroy? In my mind the vials would have to wait until the kingdoms of the world were HIS to work with. Why does it not make sense? Old Testament prophets tell us that God's PLAN for the Day of the Lord is to destroy the earth.  It is my guess that preconceived glasses are causing this to NOT make sense as written.

 

My point with history books is considering EACH book separately. Most are written in a time sequence as much as possible. It is just the way most history is written.

 

I guess we will never agree on these things until they come to pass, and you see they will happen just as John has written them.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Do you believe the tribulation is 10.5 years long?   You say that Revelation will unfold in sequence, yet Rev 11 mentions a 3.5 year period, Rev 12 mentions a 3.5 year period, and Revelation 13 mentions a 3.5 year period.  To me there are obvious overlaps in Revelation that you do not seem to admit to.

 

Of course it is not any longer than 7 years. And it is still in sequence. John mentions 42 months of trampling, then 1260 days of testifying, then 1260 days of fleeing, then 3 1/2 years of protection, then 42 months of authority. These all run PARALLEL to each other, and all are speaking of the very same last half of the week. It is not an overlap in His narrative. How else would one write of five different time-lines, all running parallel except to write of each in turn? It is my guess that they do not all start at the exact midpoint. For example, the two witnesses' 1260 days will start 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, and the 42 months of traveling before that....or on the very same day the two witnesses time will begin. On the other hand, the 42 months of authority begins later, after all the other times begin. And if you will notice, He is captured after the end of the week. So they don't run exactly at the same time. If you wish to us the world overlap, I guess we could say these five time periods overlap each other, for they are all going at the same time.

 

AT the same time I say this, I will also say, the events of chapter 13, 14. 15, etc,  will start AFTER the events of chapter 12. John has written things in the very sequence they will take place. In my mind it is silly to think 6 of the 7 seals are opened, then 6 of the 7 trumpets are sounded, then 6 of the vials, and finally all the 7's take place. That is rearranging John's God given chronology, and no one has any authority or business doing that. John used numbers for sequencing. What other purpose would there be to use numbering? So of course the 7th seal will be opened after the 6th and before the 1st trumpet. Any theory that must rearrange to make work will be proven wrong.

 

LAMAD