Pastor claims bible says guns are ok

[firestormx]

firestorm, you are absolutely right, ya know. david was not allowed to build the temple for that very reason. but God still favored Him. He had called Him to be a mighty warrior, and that was a bloody calling. it's kinda ironic in a way that the very thing that God called him to do was the same thing that prevented him from being able to show his love for God by building a temple.

That is all I have been trying to point out with David. There was consequences for all his shedding of blood ( violence ). but you have a point he was fulfilling his calling with all the actions that kept him from building the temple. I don't know Ladyc, You have a valid point that not everybody has the same calling, and also that it is not my place to determine another's walk with the Lord and what that walk entails. I haven't meant to suggest it was my place. I guess from the posts I have given that impression, so I apologize for that. But I still believe responding with violence is wrong. I don't know, When the Lord Jesus gives me peace on this and I know in my heart that my " taking this to him" is complete I will let you know. 

[Guest LadyC]

that's all i've been after, firestorm... i wish everyone were as willing to recognize what you have. i have actually been feeling like it's time for me to leave worthy again. i do that periodically. i even had a lengthy discussion with someone OFF worthy the other day about just that... am i being obedient or disobedient by sticking around here. 

 

frankly, i think my time here is done, but that God had me stick around just a little longer for one reason... and i think you are that reason. i'm glad He was able to use me. and i'm glad He allowed me to see a different side of who you are. i hope that He will continue to guide you and rain down blessings in your life.

[firestormx]

that's all i've been after, firestorm... i wish everyone were as willing to recognize what you have. i have actually been feeling like it's time for me to leave worthy again. i do that periodically. i even had a lengthy discussion with someone OFF worthy the other day about just that... am i being obedient or disobedient by sticking around here. 

 

frankly, i think my time here is done, but that God had me stick around just a little longer for one reason... and i think you are that reason. i'm glad He was able to use me. and i'm glad He allowed me to see a different side of who you are. i hope that He will continue to guide you and rain down blessings in your life.

Thanks for the kinds words. May the Lord bless you and keep you always in perfect peace.

[Sevenseas]

 

Lady C...the reason I said what I said, is because I think some are too invested here and have lost their objectivity

 

I do not see Hall saying what you seem to think he is saying....

 

 

perhaps it is time to cook a few marshmellows...emphasis on the mellows...over the fire   

 

ducking down now............

 

came back to add:

 

I am starting to be of the conviction this thread is not about guns at all...it is a personal subjective look at each other's faith and personal understanding

according to experience rather than objective acceptance of the fact that

 

we just ain't all the same but should understand and sometimes take a note from those with another viewpoint (not aimed at anyone personally, after all

I have taken part here too)

 

if you've kept up with this thread, then i'm sure you have seen my discussion with firestorm. that should be plenty of evidence that i have not lost my objectivity. i actually seem to be the only one here trying to encourage people to BE objective. maybe because i'm the only one without a gun in this fight... pun intended.

 

but i agree, it seems like this thread keeps turning into attacks on faith. attacks on the faith (or presumed lack thereof) of gun owners. the gun owners in this thread are defending their faith, and at times their frustration is coming through loud and clear. i can't blame them. they're being accused of not relying on God. they're being accused of not having enough faith. they're being accused of feeling superior. (ok, not accused, but hall did ask if gun owners feel superior, which really is a passive aggressive accusation, whether you see it as such or not.)

 

 

 

Your objectivity in general was not what I referred to.  

 

I think the thread has derailed over issues of faith and what is apparently perceived as a lack of faith from those who believe you can defend yourself.

 

I am no longer seeing guns as the issue here.  I think the issue may have been defense from point a onwards...after all, that is what a Christian would presumably be

using a gun for?

 

You cannot compartmentalize scripture...you have to have a viewpoint that considers all that God has revealed about Himself and the OT is not about cuddling by

the fireside with your enemy...the NT does not teach that no action is faith either...so...

 

well...that's about it I guess...I tried a little humor but it seemed to fall flat

 

ps...yes David was a man of war but interestingly, he sinned against another man by sleeping with his wife when he stayed home and was traipsing across

his rooftop and oogled Mrs Bathsheba...I believe the Bible actually makes mention he should have been with the troops?  (no time to look up right now)

 

At any rate, David had the desire to build the temple but God told him no as has been noted.  However, David did not act out of his own desire to wage war

when he did wage war and an examination of the pertinent passages will show that much of what David did was in defense.  David shed innocent blood

when he murdered Uriah by proxy...that may have been the blood God was referring to

[firestormx]

 David shed innocent blood

when he murdered Uriah by proxy...that may have been the blood God was referring to

You make a interesting point, the bible isn't specific either way about the blood God was referring too. I've always assumed it was the blood shed in war, never thought that God could have been referring to Uriah. Something to consider.

[Sevenseas]

yeah...I always thought so to...but what got me thinking, was the fact that God was behind David destroying the enemies of Israel...so...then I asked myself,

it does not quite make sense that God would tell David to go to war and then tell him he was guilty of shedding blood

 

The Bible also says God hates war ...so now I am thinking war as in mankind making wars....what God told the Israelites to do was annihilate the surrounding

nations...because of their sin and their offerings of their children to Molech (the devil by any other name) etc

 

So then if God telling Israel to destroy their enemies was not the sin...but mankind making war on mankind for sinful reasons is what God hates?  I think so

 

There was also the sin of numbering the Israelites and as a result God gave David 3 choices for punishment....ultimately, 70,000 men died because of David's sin

 

I am not finding a specific reference to the blood being blood shed in battle...it is an interesting question

 

Continuing to read, it seems God had decided that Solomon would build the temple prior to David asking about it...also the prophet Nathan at first told

David to go ahead and build, but that very night God revealed to Nathan that Solomon should be the one and not David...I Chron 22: 1-10

[firestormx]

yeah...I always thought so to...but what got me thinking, was the fact that God was behind David destroying the enemies of Israel...so...then I asked myself,

it does not quite make sense that God would tell David to go to war and then tell him he was guilty of shedding blood

 

The Bible also says God hates war ...so now I am thinking war as in mankind making wars....what God told the Israelites to do was annihilate the surrounding

nations...because of their sin and their offerings of their children to Molech (the devil by any other name) etc

 

So then if God telling Israel to destroy their enemies was not the sin...but mankind making war on mankind for sinful reasons is what God hates?  I think so

 

There was also the sin of numbering the Israelites and as a result God gave David 3 choices for punishment....ultimately, 70,000 men died because of David's sin

 

I am not finding a specific reference to the blood being blood shed in battle...it is an interesting question

 

Continuing to read, it seems God had decided that Solomon would build the temple prior to David asking about it...also the prophet Nathan at first told

David to go ahead and build, but that very night God revealed to Nathan that Solomon should be the one and not David...I Chron 22: 1-10

Yes, this subject is something to consider. A very interesting question indeed. 

Edited September 23, 2014 by firestormx

[coheir]

People can kill with bare hands if they know a few things. I do not hear anyone saying they are willing to live without there hands as they are without a gun. both can kill someone.

[GoldenEagle]

I see people misunderstand me.

 

Just go ahead and shoot someone, and then tell me how you deal with that the rest of your life.

That was my point.

 

You didn't answer my question. When is it righteous to protect the innocent?

 

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting, again how does this apply to law enforcement and military?

 

 

God bless,

GE

 

Law enforcement and the military live and are guided by worldly standards. We on the other hand are suppose to be guided by God and by Peace. Their is suppose to be a difference in how we deal and handle things compared to the rest of the world. I don't expect the worldly police or military to live according to biblical standards. Besides I've had bad experiences with cops, and don't hold them in real high regard. IMO most cops I have ever had to deal with have had a God complex and think their justified no matter what they do.

 

 

so david lived and was guided by worldly standards?

 

hmmmm.... that contradicts what God says.

 

I didn't say david now did I. this is why I stopped posting in this thread, no matter what I say it will INTENTIONALLY be perverted to something I didn't mean.

 

you said law enforcement and the military lived by worldly standards, and on the other hand WE are supposed to be guided by God and peace.

 

david was military.

 

i didn't pervert anything you said, intentionally or otherwise. you need to think more carefully before you say something you might not really mean.

 

David was the leader of God's people, acting at God's direction and that is something else entirely, and you know that.  Today's military and law enforcement does not do things according to what God says but according to worldly law and worldly standards.

 

 

How does the idea above in bold about today's military and law enforcement conform with passages like Romans 3 for example?

Rom. 3:1-7

¹ Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. ² Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. ³ For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, ⁴ for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. ⁵ Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ⁶ For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. ⁷ Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

God bless,

GE