GoldenEagle Posted September 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted September 21, 2014 I have followed this thread with interest. I'd like to ask a question if I may: What if a Christian divorces an abusive spouse who also claim to be a "Christian"? God bless, GELets not add to scripture for justifying re doing it... Should a slave leave the master if abusive?1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. Yes but is one spouse master over the other? Is one spouse a slave? You are IMO taking a passage out of context that talks about salves and masters. I assume you are speaking of husbands... What about passages such as: *Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, Are husbands not to lead their wives sacrificially as servant leaders? Or, how about wives honoring and respecting their husbands? *Eph 5:33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. See all of Eph 5 ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5&version=ESV ) for context. How do you view these passages? Surely we can say at the very least abuse calls for a separation? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted September 21, 2014 We can only go by what the Bible says. When we go beyond that, there is a chance we could be wrong. The Bible never states that abuse is grounds for divorce and re-marriage, so it is not possible for anyone to say conclusively that it is ok, no matter how they may desire to. All they can do is give an extra-Biblical opinion and hope it is correct. The Bible says that every man must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. The ultimate responsibility is ours. Fair enough I respect your position brother. Yet surely we can agree that an abusive situation warrants at the minimum a separation? What about when the abuse is life threatening? Please clarify. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another_poster Posted September 21, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 129 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted September 21, 2014 I have followed this thread with interest. I'd like to ask a question if I may: What if a Christian divorces an abusive spouse who also claim to be a "Christian"? God bless, GE God does not ask us to put ourselves in danger generally speaking. The only exception seems to be when witnessing. Should a survivor of domestic abuse get a divorce? Not sure but certainly there is no biblical command to stay there with the person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faith pleases God Posted September 21, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 653 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 189 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/18/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/26/1977 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I have followed this thread with interest. I'd like to ask a question if I may: What if a Christian divorces an abusive spouse who also claim to be a "Christian"? God bless, GE Lets not add to scripture for justifying re doing it... Should a slave leave the master if abusive?1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. Yes but is one spouse master over the other? Is one spouse a slave? You are IMO taking a passage out of context that talks about salves and masters. I assume you are speaking of husbands... What about passages such as: *Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, Are husbands not to lead their wives sacrificially as servant leaders? Or, how about wives honoring and respecting their husbands? *Eph 5:33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. See all of Eph 5 ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5&version=ESV ) for context. How do you view these passages? Surely we can say at the very least abuse calls for a separation? God bless, GE Conjuring up a good human reason for divorcing and remarriage like abuse is what is being asked for a justification, right? The Bible clearly says that death and adultery are the 2 reasons given for remarriage. Not abuse! But abuse is a newly added justification that is being asked. It is good human reason no doubt, but not biblical. I gave the slave scripture because if even a slave should bear the burden of a "bad" master how much more a spouse. Is the slave one with their master? No. Are the spouses one with each other? YES! If a slave is not permitted to leave the "bad" master, then how much less one spouse leaving the other? The scripture is used as an example of remaining in a bad situation. It is dividing scriptures rightfully even looking at biblical scriptures in similar yet different situations. The answer is NO. Abuse is not a good reason to remarry Biblically. However we do have laws against abuse and violence and there are channels for punishment and correction if someone "even the man" is in a harmful situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted September 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted September 21, 2014 Interestingly, many people will state that the Bible does not provide ANY grounds for divorce...not even adultery. And then we have the view that ONLY adultery is grounds for divorce. IMO, comparing a marriage to a slave and master is a redefintion of marriage and not exactly helpful Scripture has plenty of examples of what a marriage is. It is most definately not a slave and master relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted September 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted September 21, 2014 To make it a little more complicated I want to throw in another side-question: If a couple now has remarried and at least one of them was married before, let's say in this case this would have been adultery that Jesus is talking about, are they in constant sin throughout their entire marriage until one dies or not? So in other words, in order to be right with God should they now divorce again? Does God see this new union as a constant sin, could there be forgiveness? Now we know God hates divorce and breaking of vows. Here a new covenant has been established with new vows to each other. Would that not be worse to break these vows and destroy that covenant again? I have found nothing in scripture for this specific case, but is there any other scripture in principle that might help to solve this problem? Please, anybody feel free and not afraid to answer any of the questions. We are not here to judge anybody reading this, who might find themselves in a situation like that, but just to find out the truth about God's will. Also I think that shedding some light on this might help many people out there that are struggling with thoughts about this issue and don't know how to proceed, but want to be or stay in the will of God. These are not exceptional cases, but millions are dealing with this all over the world every day. So at least someone, I think, would have given some thought about this before at some time (and maybe an answer) ... Most Catholics will tell you that a couple that have been married before and then remarry, (adultery or not) are living in a state of perpetual sin. The only way to end said state of perpetual sin, would be to divorce from each other...children of such a union have even been called illegitmate by the church And you are right; these are not exceptional cases at all. The Bible is silent on divorce for the reason of abuse, however, that being said, it has plenty to say about what constitutes a marriage. A marriage is a covenantal realtionship... both parties have obligations to fulfill and beating the stew out of the other is not keeping the covenant. And what about those who divorced and then remarried before becoming Christian ? If they are forgiven, are the sins of those who remarried while Christian not forgiven? It seems to me there is an easier answer and probably a kinder one then many people would provide. I know of a true example that highlights the questionable results that this type of interpretation provides. A marriage ended because of the man's abuse and multiple acts of adultery. His ex-wife, a Christian, wanted to attend a Christian college but when she went to apply, she was told she could attend but as she was a Christian at the time of her divorce, even though she had been faithful to her husband and he had committed adultery, she would be unable to obtain credit for her courses. The college would not extend a degree to her on the basis of its interpretation of scripture on divorce As if that were not insulting enough, she was also told that if her ex-husband were to repent, he could attend and receive credit because the adultery was committed prior to his salvation. How is the innocent party forgiven if their divorce will haunt them in spite of the fact they were not the one breaking the covenant? Does God hold a Christian accountable but not a non-Christian? I would disagree.....how is it that some believers, with their Bible in front of them, can be so subjective and create even more hardship for those who have been so badly hurt? Some will argue no divorce for any reason and divorce for adultery only and both believe they are right and speak for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faith pleases God Posted September 21, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 653 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 189 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/18/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/26/1977 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Interestingly, many people will state that the Bible does not provide ANY grounds for divorce...not even adultery. And then we have the view that ONLY adultery is grounds for divorce. IMO, comparing a marriage to a slave and master is a redefintion of marriage and not exactly helpful Scripture has plenty of examples of what a marriage is. It is most definately not a slave and master relationship. I'm not trying to hurt feelings. However, in questions of doctrine I am primarily concerned with scripture more than feelings when seeking truth. I absolutely am not for abuse. But that was not the question asked. As far as Catholic stuff or seminaries that pervert truth...I don't agree with them either. A spouses body is not their own, Is it? Did Sarah call Abraham her master? Is the wife not to be submissive? I absolutely DO NOT condone abuse. But let's not veer from what the Word says either. If abuse is a problem, I am certainly for harsher punishments on physical abuse. We live in a perverted, warped, home-wrecked society, that does not honor family or the sanctity of marriage and it all began with "good" justifications that veer from the Word...I should add that I also hate divorce and think it tears apart the fabric of a society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Eye Posted September 21, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 118 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/31/1950 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Romans 13:9-10; The Commandments, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet, and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted September 21, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted September 21, 2014 Interestingly, many people will state that the Bible does not provide ANY grounds for divorce...not even adultery. And then we have the view that ONLY adultery is grounds for divorce. IMO, comparing a marriage to a slave and master is a redefintion of marriage and not exactly helpful Scripture has plenty of examples of what a marriage is. It is most definately not a slave and master relationship. I'm not trying to hurt feelings. However, in questions of doctrine I am primarily concerned with scripture more than feelings when seeking truth. I absolutely am not for abuse. But that was not the question asked. As far as Catholic stuff or seminaries that pervert truth...I don't agree with them either. A spouses body is not their own, Is it? Did Sarah call Abraham her master? Is the wife not to be submissive? I absolutely DO NOT condone abuse. But let's not veer from what the Word says either. If abuse is a problem, I am certainly for harsher punishments on physical abuse. We live in a perverted, warped, home-wrecked society, that does not honor family or the sanctity of marriage and it all began with "good" justifications that veer from the Word...I should add that I also hate divorce and think it tears apart the fabric of a society. Well you are re-stating what you have already said The question is not about feelings and the application of scripture is not about feelings...people hurt other people by their application of scripture and their insistence that they are right no matter what in spite of the fact that there are different and legitimate understandings on those same scriptures If it is a question of doctrine, which doctrine shall we apply? A Catholic will argue no divorce no matter what and a Christian will argue divorce for adultery (I am not excluding Catholics as Christians here) We live in a perverted, warped, home-wrecked society, that does not honor family or the sanctity of marriage and it all began with "good" justifications that veer from the Word...I should add that I also hate divorce and think it tears apart the fabric of a society. Do you understand how easy it was for a man to divorce his wife unde the law? God allowed it...today we might call that dishonouring the marriage if we are Christian God does state He hates divorce, but He has allowed it...because of the hardness of the hearts of mankind... I have asked a couple of times now, what constitues the breaking of the marriage covenant? Is it divorce alone? Actually I've asked a few, as of yet, unanswered questions...you don't have to answer...I'm just making an observation A spouses body is not their own, Is it? Did Sarah call Abraham her master? Is the wife not to be submissive? The two are one are they not? the husband should love his wife as Christ loved the church, should he not? Sarah was not referring to herself as Abraham's slave was she? Aren't Christians to be submissive one to the other? Does submission mean slavery or don't use your brain or you are not allowed to discuss? I have found that submission means different things to different people and that often certain other verses are left out that allow for a better understanding in any relationship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faith pleases God Posted September 21, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 653 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 189 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/18/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/26/1977 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Interestingly, many people will state that the Bible does not provide ANY grounds for divorce...not even adultery. And then we have the view that ONLY adultery is grounds for divorce. IMO, comparing a marriage to a slave and master is a redefintion of marriage and not exactly helpful Scripture has plenty of examples of what a marriage is. It is most definately not a slave and master relationship. I'm not trying to hurt feelings. However, in questions of doctrine I am primarily concerned with scripture more than feelings when seeking truth. I absolutely am not for abuse. But that was not the question asked. As far as Catholic stuff or seminaries that pervert truth...I don't agree with them either. A spouses body is not their own, Is it? Did Sarah call Abraham her master? Is the wife not to be submissive? I absolutely DO NOT condone abuse. But let's not veer from what the Word says either. If abuse is a problem, I am certainly for harsher punishments on physical abuse. We live in a perverted, warped, home-wrecked society, that does not honor family or the sanctity of marriage and it all began with "good" justifications that veer from the Word...I should add that I also hate divorce and think it tears apart the fabric of a society. Well you are re-stating what you have already said The question is not about feelings and the application of scripture is not about feelings...people hurt other people by their application of scripture and their insistence that they are right no matter what in spite of the fact that there are different and legitimate understandings on those same scriptures If it is a question of doctrine, which doctrine shall we apply? A Catholic will argue no divorce no matter what and a Christian will argue divorce for adultery (I am not excluding Catholics as Christians here) We live in a perverted, warped, home-wrecked society, that does not honor family or the sanctity of marriage and it all began with "good" justifications that veer from the Word...I should add that I also hate divorce and think it tears apart the fabric of a society. Do you understand how easy it was for a man to divorce his wife unde the law? God allowed it...today we might call that dishonouring the marriage if we are Christian God does state He hates divorce, but He has allowed it...because of the hardness of the hearts of mankind... I have asked a couple of times now, what constitues the breaking of the marriage covenant? Is it divorce alone? Actually I've asked a few, as of yet, unanswered questions...you don't have to answer...I'm just making an observation A spouses body is not their own, Is it? Did Sarah call Abraham her master? Is the wife not to be submissive? The two are one are they not? the husband should love his wife as Christ loved the church, should he not? Sarah was not referring to herself as Abraham's slave was she? Aren't Christians to be submissive one to the other? Does submission mean slavery or don't use your brain or you are not allowed to discuss? I have found that submission means different things to different people and that often certain other verses are left out that allow for a better understanding in any relationship I am truly sorry for your friend and her experiences. There are many denominations and cults. For me this is a simple subject. It is being made complicated by...saying what Catholics or other Christians think..or what really is submission?... and shouldn't all Christians submit to one another. Scripture is all that matters. Not what random denominations think. What constitutes the breaking of the marriage covenant? What were your vows? Is the covenant meant to be permanent? Of course. Death and adultery break this covenant. Not abuse. Matthew 19:9 9 Now what I say to you is that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery!” If this scripture is not self explanatory, we will not get very far in discussion. Divorce is permitted under certain conditions. Re-doing it with someone else isn't unless stated above, it is ADULTERY and the one who marries the divorced one is also living in adultery. In my opinion, this is not difficult to understand or obey. Marriage does have a hierarchy and submission is involved. I said abuse was not a reason to divorce, simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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