ghtan Posted October 30, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 216 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) There are two harvests in ch 14 - the first in v 14-16 and the second in v 17-20. This is evident from the fact that the first harvest is conducted by "one like the son of man" (v 14) - i.e. Jesus - whereas the second harvest is conducted by "another angel" (v 17). The crop in the first harvest is not stated - but silence normally indicates a wheat harvest (e.g. John 4:35) - whereas the second harvest is undoubtedly of grapes. The first harvester swings his sickle OVER the earth; the second swings his ON the earth. Nothing is mentioned about what happens to the first harvest but the second harvest is thrown into the winepress. The differences are sufficient to indicate that these are different harvests. Believers participlate in the first harvest and do not have to worry that they face the same end as the unbelievers in the second harvest. Notice that chap 15 goes on to mention a crowd singing praises in heaven. Where does this crowd come from and why does John talk about them at this point? It is because they are the product of the first harvest, i.e. they are the raptured church in heaven. The bible regularly uses different imageries to describe the same event. Jesus spoke about the kingdom of God is different ways, e.g. in Matt ch 13. Therefore, the thrusting of sickle need not be found in the Thessalonians passage just as we need not expect to find a trumpet in the rapture passage in Revelation. If we insist on similar imagery, we have a problem because the only place in Revelation that describe the dead being raised - which is found in both the Corinthians and Thessalonians passages on the rapture - is in chap 20. Surely, the rapture does not wait till ch 20. (Oops, I forgot - Rev 11 does mention the two witnesses being raised. But should we take that to be the rapture then?) Edited October 30, 2014 by ghtan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted October 30, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Yep the first resurrection is the rapture. Rev:20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted October 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted October 31, 2014 There are two harvests in ch 14 - the first in v 14-16 and the second in v 17-20. This is evident from the fact that the first harvest is conducted by "one like the son of man" (v 14) - i.e. Jesus - whereas the second harvest is conducted by "another angel" (v 17). The crop in the first harvest is not stated - but silence normally indicates a wheat harvest (e.g. John 4:35) - whereas the second harvest is undoubtedly of grapes. The first harvester swings his sickle OVER the earth; the second swings his ON the earth. Nothing is mentioned about what happens to the first harvest but the second harvest is thrown into the winepress. The differences are sufficient to indicate that these are different harvests. Believers participlate in the first harvest and do not have to worry that they face the same end as the unbelievers in the second harvest. Notice that chap 15 goes on to mention a crowd singing praises in heaven. Where does this crowd come from and why does John talk about them at this point? It is because they are the product of the first harvest, i.e. they are the raptured church in heaven. The bible regularly uses different imageries to describe the same event. Jesus spoke about the kingdom of God is different ways, e.g. in Matt ch 13. Therefore, the thrusting of sickle need not be found in the Thessalonians passage just as we need not expect to find a trumpet in the rapture passage in Revelation. If we insist on similar imagery, we have a problem because the only place in Revelation that describe the dead being raised - which is found in both the Corinthians and Thessalonians passages on the rapture - is in chap 20. Surely, the rapture does not wait till ch 20. (Oops, I forgot - Rev 11 does mention the two witnesses being raised. But should we take that to be the rapture then?) ============================================================================ As I've just simply shown..... Rev Chapter 14 is not the Rapture. If it is, I'm a Mau Mau Fighter Pilot. Chapter 15??? What about the passages DIRECTLY following "your" Rapture in Rev Chapter 14 itself (That's In Context) describing exactly what is being reaped and where they're going? They're Raptured right into the Great Winepress of the Wrath of GOD. It's Tantamount to saying Rev Chapter 18 is the Rapture. The bible regularly uses different imageries to describe the same event. Yea, it sure doesn't use different Idioms to describe the same thing ie., Wheat and Tares DON'T = Vine and Grapes. It's called the Law of Expositional Constancy. And more importantly...there is no "Imagery" here and No Idioms... (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words." This is what they call "Literal". Notice that chap 15 goes on to mention a crowd singing praises in heaven. Where does this crowd come from You mean these??... (Revelation 15:2) "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." Quite apparently the Tribulation Saints from Chapter 7. If we insist on similar imagery, we have a problem because the only place in Revelation that describe the dead being raised - which is found in both the Corinthians and Thessalonians passages on the rapture - is in chap 20. Surely, the rapture does not wait till ch 20. Similar Imagery?? Please show....? (Also see above discussion on "Imagery") The Rapture Surely has to be before Rev 19....the Marriage Supper and Christ's Return, because HIS Wife ("The Church"/Born Again Christians) is with HIM in Heaven for the Supper then She follows HIM when HE Returns. Well if The Rapture isn't in Chapter 20 or Chapter 19 or: 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 ....AND, there definitely is "A Rapture"....Where/When is it? Could it be before Revelation/Great Tribulation? Sort of a Pre-Great Trib Motif? AND, The question still remains... Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation.... Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time). So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation. Please show this scenario in Scripture.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted October 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Yep the first resurrection is the rapture. Rev:20 You're 11 Short. I've missed the One Liners. So the Rapture of The Church----- is the first resurrection, and is in Rev 20, eh? hmm ok... But in Rev 19 (Before Chapter 20)....the Marriage Supper and Christ's Return occur, HIS Wife ("The Church"/Born Again Christians) is with HIM in Heaven for the Supper then She follows HIM when HE Returns. How can She be "Un-Raptured" until Chapter 20 when the events of Chapter 19 "which She was involved in" have already taken place? Please show Exactly where "The Rapture" is and who Specifically in Chapter 20....? Can you also answer this.... Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation.... Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time). So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation. Please show this scenario in Scripture.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted October 31, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted October 31, 2014 The church members have been dying for 2000 years, that's how they are coming back with the Lord at His second coming. Where dose it say that the 98%( as you call them) go thru the tribulation . Their tribulation is over, for they have went on to be with the Lord already,Thes. says they that are ALIVE and remain shall be called up, it doesn't say the whole of the church, as you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghtan Posted October 31, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 216 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2014 Quite true, it is only the church alive at that time that will be raptured. Nothing in the text suggests otherwise. Apart from that, pre-tribbers have this idea that the church cannot go through the great tribulation, but where does that come from? Is there a scripture that says so? Btw, that there are two harvests in chapter 14 is recognised by the vast majority of bible commentators; they argue over the meaning of the first harvest but they nevertheless recognise that there are two harvests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted October 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted October 31, 2014 The church members have been dying for 2000 years, that's how they are coming back with the Lord at His second coming. Where dose it say that the 98%( as you call them) go thru the tribulation . Their tribulation is over, for they have went on to be with the Lord already,Thes. says they that are ALIVE and remain shall be called up, it doesn't say the whole of the church, as you suggest. ============================================================================================================= The church members have been dying for 2000 years, that's how they are coming back with the Lord at His second coming. If they're DEAD and they come back with Christ in Rev 19....Where is their Resurrection in Revelation prior to Rev 19? Where dose it say that the 98%( as you call them) go thru the tribulation It doesn't, it's just basic reasoning....It's The Inherent condition in both the Mid/Post Great Trib Rapture position. By the mere fact that you are Mid/Post Trib, what you're saying is "The Church"/Born Again Christians go through the Great Tribulation. Well if that's True...you have to show the Majority of "The Church" (Which are currently DEAD) RESURRECTED and walking around on the Earth............. to Go Through IT. The only thing you're going through when you're DEAD....is being DEAD. The 98% is a rough estimate of where the Majority of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are from Pentecost until now....DEAD. It's most likely low...It's probably in the 99.5% vicinity. Their tribulation is over, for they have went on to be with the Lord already What "tribulation"? Scripture Support for this statement.....? Moreover and this is troubling....you said in your last post; "The Rapture is -----the First Resurrection", Correct? Why would anyone need to be RESURRECTED if everyone that already DIED ....is with the LORD (as you just said)? Thes. says they that are ALIVE and remain shall be called up, it doesn't say the whole of the church, as you suggest. Say again over? My Bible says.... (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words." Verse 16 and 17 are concurrent. Where are the DEAD Church members rising to? The Clouds to meet the Lord. Where do the Live Church Members meet the Lord? In the Clouds. With who? With Them....who are "Them"? The DEAD Church Members that were just RESURRECTED. You have to read Verse 17, then the Passages/Message become Clear. it doesn't say the whole of the church, as you suggest. Can you show in the above passages where it says "Part" of the DEAD or "Part" of the "Alive" will meet HIM in the clouds......? And you have an issue here.... (1 Corinthians 15:50-51) "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. {51} Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," And here.... (1 John 3:2) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." Does it say "Some of us" will see HIM as HE is? And....: Please show Exactly where "The Rapture" is and who "Specifically" in Chapter 20....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted October 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Quite true, it is only the church alive at that time that will be raptured. Nothing in the text suggests otherwise. Apart from that, pre-tribbers have this idea that the church cannot go through the great tribulation, but where does that come from? Is there a scripture that says so? Btw, that there are two harvests in chapter 14 is recognised by the vast majority of bible commentators; they argue over the meaning of the first harvest but they nevertheless recognise that there are two harvests. ============================================================================ Quite true, it is only the church alive at that time that will be raptured. Nothing in the text suggests otherwise. Huh? We must have different Bibles... (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words." So...."the DEAD shall rise first" Then ...."we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. Caught up Together with who? Them. Who are "Them"?....The DEAD in Christ. Who are being Caught up Together with "Them"? ...we which are Alive. What part of this is particularly confusing? pre-tribbers have this idea that the church cannot go through the great tribulation, but where does that come from? From Scripture and basic reasoning as I've shown you for the past 10 posts. Btw, that there are two harvests in chapter 14 is recognised by the vast majority of bible commentators; they argue over the meaning of the first harvest but they nevertheless recognise that there are two harvests. Well "Majority"/ Consensus doesn't = TRUTH. And there is only one Harvest with 2 iterations. If there are 2 Separate Harvests.....List the "TWO" Harvest-ees...? Please show in Scripture the Fate of the Harvest-ees? SEE.... (Revelation 14:19-20) "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. {20} And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs." Have you ever put just "VINES" in a winepress? What comes out of just "Vines" when they are pressed? Wine/(Idiomatically Blood) or absolutely nothing? Quite Interestingly and Profoundly Important to your thesis ... What event is being described/foreshadowed here?? There are 3 clues: "trodden without the city", "horse bridles", "a thousand and six hundred furlongs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted October 31, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted October 31, 2014 The rapture/resurrection is at the second coming, no such thing as a pre-trib resurrection, so you can throw out your pre-trib rapture. It's that simple!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted October 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted October 31, 2014 The rapture/resurrection is at the second coming, no such thing as a pre-trib resurrection, so you can throw out your pre-trib rapture. It's that simple!!!!! Another One Liner without a whiff of any support whatsoever...almost like a Mantra. So if The Rapture is @ the Second Coming and the Bride ("The Church"/Born Again Christians) are in Heaven prior to the Second Coming AND THEN accompany HIM @ the Second Coming. How can they be Raptured @ the Second Coming when they're are already there?? It's Non-Sequitur (Fallacy)---- the premise doesn't agree with the conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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