Hell

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

But you said, Owlam means a time that cannot be seen, a person's lifespan can be seen. You didn't address what I said, you just repeated what you said. You said, "Forever says that from now into the future, to an unknown time in the distant future, the servant must serve the master." That's not the definition of forever. Forever doesn't mean til some time in the future, it means limitless time. The servant will not serve the master for limitless time. I also disagree that Olam va'ed "must" be interpreted as eternity.  The Bible uses phrases to express the idea of eternity, I'm not aware of any single word that expresses the idea of eternity. Here is a Biblical expression for eternity.

 

 

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

(Isa 9:6-7 NKJ)

 

No end of His government is eternal.

 

 

From this point in time, my future is 'unseen'. I can't see it, or what will happen.  

 

Forever is not necessarily the same as eternity. I marriage is to last forever, no divorce. But forever is limited by death. Olam va'ed is often translated as 'forever and ever'. If 'forever' was eternity, then the added 'and ever' would be senseless. Forever is sometimes the equivalent of an 'age'. But, then by context, we have to know how the 'age' is defined. An age might be a persons lifetime, or the time until the Messianic reign, or the time until the heavens and earth cease to exist.   

 

As far as Isaiah 9:7, the word for end in Hebrew is qetz. Governments can end. Gods government has no end, lo qetz. But, I do not think that has anything to do with olam or olam va'ed. Just as in English, we can say 'no end', or forever, or until the end of the age, or eternal, it is simply a different set of words.     

 

You're trying to redefine "forever". Look up the definitions of "forever" and "eternal," I agree "forever and ever" makes no sense, but that's a translational erro.

 

 

'Forever and ever' is not a translational error. Translating l'olam va'ed into English as 'forever and ever' is agreed upon almost unanimously by experts in Hebrew, both from Judaism and Christianity.

 

Adding a scripture verse:

 

Exodus 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.

 

The Hebrew says l'olam va'ed

 

Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever

 

The following quote is interesting as it shows that forever can mean a certain age. From the view of man, forever for us is as long as we live. In this case, the added ever takes us beyond life into death.  

Psalm 48:14 For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.

 

The meaning of Olam is based on context. It means forever and can mean into eternity, but based on context, it can also mean forever, or for as long as a person lives. The added va'ed takes it beyond to eternity. Beyond the present age, whatever that age might be.  

 

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting  Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

In Isaiah 9:6, the word for everlasting is 'ad' as in va'ed.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

But you said, Owlam means a time that cannot be seen, a person's lifespan can be seen. You didn't address what I said, you just repeated what you said. You said, "Forever says that from now into the future, to an unknown time in the distant future, the servant must serve the master." That's not the definition of forever. Forever doesn't mean til some time in the future, it means limitless time. The servant will not serve the master for limitless time. I also disagree that Olam va'ed "must" be interpreted as eternity.  The Bible uses phrases to express the idea of eternity, I'm not aware of any single word that expresses the idea of eternity. Here is a Biblical expression for eternity.

 

 

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

(Isa 9:6-7 NKJ)

 

No end of His government is eternal.

 

 

From this point in time, my future is 'unseen'. I can't see it, or what will happen.  

 

Forever is not necessarily the same as eternity. I marriage is to last forever, no divorce. But forever is limited by death. Olam va'ed is often translated as 'forever and ever'. If 'forever' was eternity, then the added 'and ever' would be senseless. Forever is sometimes the equivalent of an 'age'. But, then by context, we have to know how the 'age' is defined. An age might be a persons lifetime, or the time until the Messianic reign, or the time until the heavens and earth cease to exist.   

 

As far as Isaiah 9:7, the word for end in Hebrew is qetz. Governments can end. Gods government has no end, lo qetz. But, I do not think that has anything to do with olam or olam va'ed. Just as in English, we can say 'no end', or forever, or until the end of the age, or eternal, it is simply a different set of words.     

 

You're trying to redefine "forever". Look up the definitions of "forever" and "eternal," I agree "forever and ever" makes no sense, but that's a translational erro.

 

 

'Forever and ever' is not a translational error. Translating l'olam va'ed into English as 'forever and ever' is agreed upon almost unanimously by experts in Hebrew, both from Judaism and Christianity.

 

Forever and eternal are interchangeable in English, Olam doesn't mean eternal.  It doesn't matter what most Scholars say if it contradicts Scripture. There are statutes in the Mosaic Law that are "olam". In the English translations it is translated forever. Those statutes came to an end, thus they are not forever.

[Butch5]

 

Just look at the passage. There's nothing in it that says these people are dead or in hell. As a matter of fact it's speaking of those who worship the beast. In order for them to worship the beast they must be alive.

 

 

 

So when do they die according to your view?

 

I don't know when they, that's not relevant to the passage. The fact is they are alive in the passage.

[7thseal]

 

 

Just look at the passage. There's nothing in it that says these people are dead or in hell. As a matter of fact it's speaking of those who worship the beast. In order for them to worship the beast they must be alive.

 

 

 

So when do they die according to your view?

 

I don't know when they, that's not relevant to the passage. The fact is they are alive in the passage.

 

 

The thing is that you've tied saints to those that die....how is this possible if saints have eternal life as God says?

Edited October 16, 2014 by 7thseal

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

 

From this point in time, my future is 'unseen'. I can't see it, or what will happen.  

 

Forever is not necessarily the same as eternity. I marriage is to last forever, no divorce. But forever is limited by death. Olam va'ed is often translated as 'forever and ever'. If 'forever' was eternity, then the added 'and ever' would be senseless. Forever is sometimes the equivalent of an 'age'. But, then by context, we have to know how the 'age' is defined. An age might be a persons lifetime, or the time until the Messianic reign, or the time until the heavens and earth cease to exist.   

 

As far as Isaiah 9:7, the word for end in Hebrew is qetz. Governments can end. Gods government has no end, lo qetz. But, I do not think that has anything to do with olam or olam va'ed. Just as in English, we can say 'no end', or forever, or until the end of the age, or eternal, it is simply a different set of words.     

 

You're trying to redefine "forever". Look up the definitions of "forever" and "eternal," I agree "forever and ever" makes no sense, but that's a translational erro.

 

 

'Forever and ever' is not a translational error. Translating l'olam va'ed into English as 'forever and ever' is agreed upon almost unanimously by experts in Hebrew, both from Judaism and Christianity.

 

Forever and eternal are interchangeable in English, Olam doesn't mean eternal.  It doesn't matter what most Scholars say if it contradicts Scripture. There are statutes in the Mosaic Law that are "olam". In the English translations it is translated forever. Those statutes came to an end, thus they are not forever.

 

 

Olam means beyond, to the unseen. It means eternal based on context. It does not contradict scripture. Olam is used in situations which are clearly eternal.

 

Genesis 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

 

Will God ever again destroy all life on earth with a judgement of a flood? (Olam)

 

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting  God.

 

Is God everlasting? (Olam)

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From this point in time, my future is 'unseen'. I can't see it, or what will happen.  

 

Forever is not necessarily the same as eternity. I marriage is to last forever, no divorce. But forever is limited by death. Olam va'ed is often translated as 'forever and ever'. If 'forever' was eternity, then the added 'and ever' would be senseless. Forever is sometimes the equivalent of an 'age'. But, then by context, we have to know how the 'age' is defined. An age might be a persons lifetime, or the time until the Messianic reign, or the time until the heavens and earth cease to exist.   

 

As far as Isaiah 9:7, the word for end in Hebrew is qetz. Governments can end. Gods government has no end, lo qetz. But, I do not think that has anything to do with olam or olam va'ed. Just as in English, we can say 'no end', or forever, or until the end of the age, or eternal, it is simply a different set of words.     

 

You're trying to redefine "forever". Look up the definitions of "forever" and "eternal," I agree "forever and ever" makes no sense, but that's a translational erro.

 

 

'Forever and ever' is not a translational error. Translating l'olam va'ed into English as 'forever and ever' is agreed upon almost unanimously by experts in Hebrew, both from Judaism and Christianity.

 

Forever and eternal are interchangeable in English, Olam doesn't mean eternal.  It doesn't matter what most Scholars say if it contradicts Scripture. There are statutes in the Mosaic Law that are "olam". In the English translations it is translated forever. Those statutes came to an end, thus they are not forever.

 

 

Olam means beyond, to the unseen. It means eternal based on context. It does not contradict scripture. Olam is used in situations which are clearly eternal.

 

Genesis 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

 

Will God ever again destroy all life on earth with a judgement of a flood? (Olam)

 

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting  God.

 

Is God everlasting? (Olam)

 

You're reading your understanding back into the passage rather than getting it from the passage. Scholars do the same thing with the word "aionios." They say aionois must mean etenral because the believer is promised a never ending existence. However, just like olam, aionios is used of finite periods of time. 

 

Let's go back to the servant passage. If olam can mean eternal then the servant may very well serve the master throughout eternity. There would be no way to determine it other than to force one's belief on the afterlife. 

[Butch5]

 

 

 

Just look at the passage. There's nothing in it that says these people are dead or in hell. As a matter of fact it's speaking of those who worship the beast. In order for them to worship the beast they must be alive.

 

 

 

So when do they die according to your view?

 

I don't know when they, that's not relevant to the passage. The fact is they are alive in the passage.

 

 

The thing is that you've tied saints to those that die....how is this possible if saints have eternal life as God says?

 

Saints don't have eternal life until after they are resurrected. The passage in question is not talking about resurrected people, this event takes place before the resurrection. This is during the 

tribulation

[7thseal]

 

 

 

 

Just look at the passage. There's nothing in it that says these people are dead or in hell. As a matter of fact it's speaking of those who worship the beast. In order for them to worship the beast they must be alive.

 

 

 

So when do they die according to your view?

 

I don't know when they, that's not relevant to the passage. The fact is they are alive in the passage.

 

 

The thing is that you've tied saints to those that die....how is this possible if saints have eternal life as God says?

 

Saints don't have eternal life until after they are resurrected. The passage in question is not talking about resurrected people, this event takes place before the resurrection. This is during the 

tribulation

 

[other one]

 

Does that society that stopped fearing God love him????     Do you really follow Jesus because you fear what he wil do if you don't?

.

 

Psalms 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.

 

Those who do not fear God, Christ and the Holy Spirit have never begun to know anything. The fear of the Lord is just the beginning of wisdom.

 

but once you know God and experience his love......   once you start to attain that wisdom.....  what then....    are we still to fear someone who sacrificed his only begotten son to save us from ourselves.......    do we once we understand that still fear him. or do we draw near him the way we do our loving earthly dads.    My biological father died about two months before I was born and my mom married a good man that made an exceptional earthly father......    I love him dearly God rest his soul, but  I never had any fear for or from him at all......    because I knew he loved my mom and he loved me........    God is much more trustworthy than my dad.

 

So you guys can take a verse or two here and there that speak of fearing him before you really know him and keep that fear if it's something you need......    but it's not for me, for I have learned to trust him, and I follow him and do my best to live up to his standards expected of me because I love him and want to be near him.......   not because I'm afraid he's going to burn me for ever....

I'm truly sorry if you have not come to that point in your walks with him.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

Forever and eternal are interchangeable in English, Olam doesn't mean eternal.  It doesn't matter what most Scholars say if it contradicts Scripture. There are statutes in the Mosaic Law that are "olam". In the English translations it is translated forever. Those statutes came to an end, thus they are not forever.

 

 

Olam means beyond, to the unseen. It means eternal based on context. It does not contradict scripture. Olam is used in situations which are clearly eternal.

 

Genesis 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

 

Will God ever again destroy all life on earth with a judgement of a flood? (Olam)

 

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting  God.

 

Is God everlasting? (Olam)

 

You're reading your understanding back into the passage rather than getting it from the passage. Scholars do the same thing with the word "aionios." They say aionois must mean etenral because the believer is promised a never ending existence. However, just like olam, aionios is used of finite periods of time. 

 

Let's go back to the servant passage. If olam can mean eternal then the servant may very well serve the master throughout eternity. There would be no way to determine it other than to force one's belief on the afterlife. 

 

As a general statement, when interpreting Hebrew, it must take context into mind. If God is eternal, everlasting, then Olam must mean everlasting. Forever.  

 

You say it must not mean eternity, but then if what you say is an absolute, then you have to agree that God is not eternal, yet we have too many scripture verses which say otherwise by context.  

 

The problem is, in Hebrew, there are not always absolutes. One translates within the context of the verse.

 

When speaking of an afterlife, you are attempting to prove that hell or the lake of fire is not eternal by trying to say that Olam never means eternal, but it is more then clear that God is called Olam, meaning God is eternal. What you are doing is trying to invalidate the actual meaning of a word, to win your argument. Your claim is that the translators are wrong because they didn't translate to match your understanding. I say the translators are right. Olam should be translated as eternal, everlasting and forever. Experts in Hebrew from varying religious views and differing religions agree that Olam means forever.  You are offering an invalid argument as proof of your view. The logical conclusion based on your argument is that God is not eternal.