The Rapture

[seandavids]

Why do so many people believe that the rapture and the second coming are two different things? I believe in a rapture, but I think its going to be at the end of "the end." Right before the last war of Armageddon. So, what makes people belive that the rapture will be pre-trib, mid-trib? I just don;t understand.... I know this is proly going to turn into a debate. Sorry for that, but I want to understand others believes.

switching the order of events is the devils last hope, all three gospels Jesus gives a very detailed eschatology of events leading up to gathering up the saints (rapture)

 

imagine if someone hammered it in your head week after week Jesus comes before the antichrist, Jesus comes before the antchrist..........now then imagine someone who really doesn't read their bible and doesn't know all the criteria to make a more biblical decision

 

 

Guess who their gonna follow!

[SID]

Why do so many people believe that the rapture and the second coming are two different things? I believe in a rapture, but I think its going to be at the end of "the end." Right before the last war of Armageddon. So, what makes people belive that the rapture will be pre-trib, mid-trib? I just don;t understand.... I know this is proly going to turn into a debate. Sorry for that, but I want to understand others believes.

amen. They are the same event!

[The_Patriot21]

And yet another revival of a dead thread. Seriously folks, read the DATE on the thread before replying and if its ancient history start a new topic. Let dead topics die in peace...

[MorningGlory]

And yet another revival of a dead thread. Seriously folks, read the DATE on the thread before replying and if its ancient history start a new topic. Let dead topics die in peace...

 

I second that request.  What's the point of responding to an OP who has been absent from this forum for months....or years? 

[Bible2]

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is.

 

Note that there is no pre-tribulation idea in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 or John 14:1-3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself.

 

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

 

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is.

 

Note that there is no "unscheduled secret event" idea in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 or John 14:1-3.

 

Some people feels that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what is called a home invasion, which is quite obvious, and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

 

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean he will come secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43,44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

 

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still watching (staying awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

 

Regarding Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

 

That is, the unsaved people of the world will have no idea most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

 

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

 

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

I say unscheduled and secret because its specific timing will remain unknown until it actually happens.

 

Note that Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

 

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and preterist views), then how can we also claim he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

 

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim the first verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim the second verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

 

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

 

--

 

Coming to know at a certain point in our future the date of Jesus' 2nd coming will help believers to endure patiently during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers. As an analogy, imagine that during a persecution of believers you are thrown naked into a walk-in freezer. The door is locked and the lights are turned off and you are just left in there to slowly suffer the freezing cold. You could freak out at this if you have no idea how long you are going to have to be in there. But what if right after they turn the lights off, you see a little light in the corner, and you walk over and see a note on the wall: "You will be let out and set free in 13.35 minutes" (cf. the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12). This would greatly help you to remain calm and hang in there patiently for the whole time, even though you might suffer terribly from the cold. In the same way, knowing exactly when Jesus' 2nd coming will occur (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15) will help believers, during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers, to endure patiently to the end (Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10b).

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

Since both the Corinthian passage and the one from Thessalonians describe the same things, it’s safe to assume that the term last trump refers to the fact that the trumpet call of God from 1 Thes. 4:16 will signal the end of the Church Age, at which time the Church will disappear from Earth.

 

Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

And since both Matt. 24:31 (they’ll gather His elect from one end of the heavens to the other) and Rev. 17:14 (with Him will be His called, chosen, and faithful followers) say that we’ll be with the Lord when He returns, this has to happen sometime before the 2nd Coming.

 

Note that Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.

 

The way this will work is: 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

 

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

This is supported by 1 Thes. 5:9 that declares, “God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

 

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

 

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

 

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

 

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

 

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

 

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

 

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

 

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

 

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

People with a post-trib disposition read 1 Thes. 4:15, and then turned to Matt. 24:40-41 where they saw one group being “taken” and another group being “left” after the end of the Great Tribulation.

 

Matthew 24:37-41 and Luke 17:26-37 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

 

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

 

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

 

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

Matt. 24:40-41 is most likely a preview of the Sheep and Goat judgment of Tribulation survivors.

 

Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

 

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

Yes, like everything else in God’s plan, you’ll find hints of the Rapture even in the Old Testament.

 

Look at this passage from Isaiah 26:19-21.

 

Note that Isaiah 26:20 can start a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And so nothing requires that Isaiah 26:20-21 has to happen after Isaiah 26:19. Instead, Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they won't be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

 

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

One way for believers to prepare these chambers would be for them to bury old shipping containers. Shipping and trucking companies could have such shipping containers stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheap to anyone who will take them off their hands.

 

Once you have one or more shipping containers at your wilderness site, you can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury them. The trenches need to be deep enough so that you can pile 6 feet of dirt on top of the containers. For that much dirt is required to stop radiation from any nuclear fallout from reaching the containers. Also, 6 feet of dirt will serve as great insulation, so that no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface, the shipping containers will always remain at a pleasant 68 degrees Fahrenheit (20 degrees Celsius).

 

Once you have put the shipping containers in their trenches, you can cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, 6-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then you can attach to each manhole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to each ventilation hole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the ventilation hole. Then you can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

 

Then you can place a 14-foot ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And you can go down into each container and place a small, battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. Your containers will then be all set to start stocking with canned food, water, bedding, batteries, and all other needed supplies whenever you want to do that. You will then need to secure the top of each manhole-pipe with some sort of thick PVC, perhaps screw-on, cover which can be locked from both the outside when you are away from the container, and from the inside when you are in the container. To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far into the ventilation pipes, you can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each pipe. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering the pipes and affecting the filters, you can place a nylon screen and side-vented plastic cap over the top of each pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the pipes. So your wilderness site shouldn't be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it won't be flooded.

 

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden out of sight of hostile people during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers so that, as much as possible, it appears like it did before you began digging. The tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be camouflaged with brush, so that any hostile people passing by won't notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while you are hiding inside a container, you will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up your scent emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and won't start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe.

 

Besides camouflaging your underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the Antichrist's worldwide reign (in the tribulation's 2nd half), before the tribulation even begins and you are still thinking about where in the wilderness to prepare your hideout, you will need to be very circumspect about who you tell about your plans. You will want to tell only those people who are completely committed to joining you in hiding in your containers during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. For if you get any other people involved in knowing before the Antichrist's worldwide reign where your hideout is located, during the Antichrist's worldwide reign those same people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers and under torture or interrogation drugs tell them the location of your hideout. Or those same people, even if they are not captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, and so could decide to go out to your hideout and demand to be fed with your supplies, even though you didn't store up enough for them, because before the tribulation they had said that they definitely weren't going to join you in your hideout.

 

Another thing to remember is that even before the Antichrist's worldwide reign, even when communicating with those who are completely committed to joining you in your hideout during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you must never refer to the location of your hideout over the internet or over a cell phone, smartphone, or landline phone, or even in your car or home, or in any (e.g.) workplace, supermarket, or restaurant equipped with surveillance cameras and microphones, as all of these could currently be tapped and recorded by intelligence or law enforcement agencies, and their surveillance records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine the location of your hideout. For the same reason, you mustn't have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, smartphone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with you when you are out at your hideout, as the GPS chip could be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine your hideout's location. You will also need to have your car, shoes, clothing, and all supplies intended for your hideout electronically swept for any GPS chips covertly placed in them by intelligence or law enforcement agencies.

 

More generally, during the tribulation, as now, whenever you want to keep your cell phone or smartphone with you, but at the same time want to avoid having your movements tracked through it, wrap it in a small towel like a wash cloth, or place it in a small box like a cigar box, and then wrap the towel or box completely with aluminum foil, so that no phone signals can reach the phone. To make sure that there are no tiny gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the phone is in the foil-wrapped towel or box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, wrap the towel or box with a 2nd layer of foil and call again. If the phone doesn't ring, that means that no signals can reach it, and so your movements can't be tracked through it.

 

And when you make your final trip out to your hideout, when you will begin hiding there during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will need to abandon your car miles away from your hideout and walk the rest of the way, as otherwise your car could catch the attention of any passing hostile people or patrolling drone aircraft. And even if you abandon your car miles away from you hideout, you will still want to camouflage it with brush to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area. Or, if there is not enough brush with which to camouflage it, you can let the air out of one of its tires which is visible from the road, so that people passing on the road will think that your car was left there because it got a flat tire.

 

Some people think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the tribulation. But that may not be the case, for almost all people in the cities don't have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and won't know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness, and so they won't think that there is any food out there, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as being only barren ground and brush, rocks, trees, and mountains, and so they will stay in the cities where they have shelter and some chance of finding food. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them and supply them with emergency food and water.

 

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7-18), the cities could become, in effect, huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the Antichrist's mark on their right hand or forehead if they want to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 12:9) and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they don't want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Believers trapped in the cities must be willing to be beheaded, for if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image, they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternally in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

 

Believers shouldn't assume that they will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed on believers trapped in the cities during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. Many believers could eventually give in and take the mark when their hunger and the hunger of their crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22). And they could give in and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image when they are confronted with they and their little ones being tortured and beheaded if they don't do those things. It will be much, much better for believers to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared hiding places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).

 

"A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself..." (Proverbs 22:3, Proverbs 27:12, Proverbs 28:28, Proverbs 28:12b).

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

There are other sound theological reasons why the Church will be raptured before the End Times judgments begin.

 

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

 

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

 

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

--

 

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

 

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

One is that the Lord seems to keep Israel and the Church separate . . .

 

Note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

 

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

 

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

 

Also, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

The idea that the Church needs to undergo some discipline to become worthy to dwell with God is not scriptural and denies the Lord’s completed work on the cross.

 

The tribulation's purpose with regard to the righteous church in all nations having to suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6) could be the same as the purpose of righteous Job having to go through his suffering at the hands of Satan (Job chapters 1-2), and the purpose of, for example, the righteous, literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) having to suffer and die in a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10).

 

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

 

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

 

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43). 

 

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

 

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

Enoch, who bears a great similarity to the Church, disappeared before the Great Flood . . .

 

Note that Enoch wasn't translated into the 3rd heaven so that he wouldn't have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah and his family in the ark: 2 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 3:20). For Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood. The way that we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

 

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built.

 

Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

 

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work farther back: If Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

 

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 years old at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

 

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some 5 years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the Flood.

 

Parker1 said in post 15:

 

And what about the promise He made to the Church in Philadelphia that he would keep us out of the “hour” of trial coming on the whole world. (Rev. 3:10)

 

The 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

 

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

 

The first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

 

Also, the first century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

[Bible2]

crochetlady said in post 16:

 

My understanding of the 'gathering up of believers' / rapture / is that at Some time in the future -- Christ Will return in the air for born-again believers.  And That will be the ending of the 'time of the Gentiles'.  Then there will be a 7-yr period -- as talked about in Daniel -- the final 'one' of the 70 years.

 

The treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

 

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

 

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

 

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

 

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

 

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

 

crochetlady said in post 16:

 

There will be 144,000 Jews who will be 'sealed' and go about witnessing to other Jews.

 

The 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

 

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

[gdemoss]

My God...a multitude of words. Too much to even begin to digest.

[SINNERSAVED]

The rapture and the second coming is in parallel in and of the same event , if we read scripture correctly most believe in churches today and many Christians we talk too have ingrained in there minds that jesus comes for the believers leaves and then comes back again like a yo=yo, but scripture states in Mathew #24 that we in the last days will have tribulation and some will even be killed for his name sake , so just as noah was saved through the tribulation of the flood, and lot was saved through the fire and brimstone, and the people coming out of eygpt came through the plagues and to freedom, it will be the same in the end times we are going through the tribulation until the second coming we are not taken up until the day of the lord, so it states in revelation he who endures until the end shall be saved for many will run away from the faith when hard times and persecution comes, but the faithful and true believers will stand until the end in there faith even if it be to there death, there is no secret rapture this is a false teaching that is not biblical, there is a 42 month of satan or the beast to over come the saints, we will not suffer wrath, wrath is for the unbeliever and those that perish

jesus said do not let any one deceive you and say he is here or there, in secret, scripture interprets scripture, and many Christians today are following false teachings and assuming we get a out of tribulation free pass, but this is not the way of the believer, and the true jesus we follow.

[MorningGlory]

My God...a multitude of words. Too much to even begin to digest.

 

And in answer to people who quit posting at Worthy years ago.  Amazing. 

[MorningGlory]

The rapture and the second coming is in parallel in and of the same event , if we read scripture correctly most believe in churches today and many Christians we talk too have ingrained in there minds that jesus comes for the believers leaves and then comes back again like a yo=yo, but scripture states in Mathew #24 that we in the last days will have tribulation and some will even be killed for his name sake , so just as noah was saved through the tribulation of the flood, and lot was saved through the fire and brimstone, and the people coming out of eygpt came through the plagues and to freedom, it will be the same in the end times we are going through the tribulation until the second coming we are not taken up until the day of the lord, so it states in revelation he who endures until the end shall be saved for many will run away from the faith when hard times and persecution comes, but the faithful and true believers will stand until the end in there faith even if it be to there death, there is no secret rapture this is a false teaching that is not biblical, there is a 42 month of satan or the beast to over come the saints, we will not suffer wrath, wrath is for the unbeliever and those that perish

jesus said do not let any one deceive you and say he is here or there, in secret, scripture interprets scripture, and many Christians today are following false teachings and assuming we get a out of tribulation free pass, but this is not the way of the believer, and the true jesus we follow.

 

Pre, Mid or Post.....not a salvational issue.  If one is saved, it just doesn't matter.  Except to those who make posts so long you need a car to drive from one end to the other.