The Rapture

[rollinTHUNDER]

So there are all my cards RT. You have nothing but conjecture and your pre-trib paradigm to support you, which is all sand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey DE,

Well, you certainly have proved that this is what you believe, if that's worth anything.

I'm not a pre-tribber, although I believe the rapture stands a good chance of occurring before a 7 year tribulation, however, I also recognize that it could also possibly occur at the mid-point, just as Jesus said that His coming would be comparable to the days of Noah, and we can see that He wasn't taken out of harms way until 7 days before God's wrath. No man knows. I also don't believe that the entire church will be raptured when it does happen, but pre-tribbers do.

So DE, since you believe that the tribulation will only be 3 1/2 years, can you tell us what the starting point of this 3 1/2 year trib will be? How will you know you are in the tribulation, or are you another one who believes that we're already in the tribulation as well?

[rollinTHUNDER]

Greetings DE,

Apparently you don't care for the previous question.

But let's just suppose that Christ' 3 1/2 year ministry was the start of Daniel's 70th week as you "post trib/pre-wrathers" believe. If Christ was the one in the middle of the week who put a stop to sacrifice and offering, wouldn't you also be forced to believe that Christ' ministry was the tribulation, and then this tribulation is to be followed by 3 1/2 years or 42 months of God's wrath? So what happens next?

Or was there another tribulation out there somewhere?

The pieces just don't fit the puzzle. And that's the trouble you run into when you start mixing preterism with futurism.

[Guest hubertdorm]

Yes, what would you like to know?  The rapture is yet to come.  It happens before the 7 year tribulation period.  The tribulation period to come is God's wrath on mankind, not man to man as now.  What did God do with noah, he saved him out of the flood 7 days before it happened.  In the same manner we are saved 7 years before Jesus returns to the earth.  If you real Revelation, there are some parallel events what is going on in heaven vs what is going on on earth.  Revelation repeats itself with more details.

Can you prove each point individually? Prove that the rapture occurs before the seven year tribulation. Prove that the tribulation is God's wrath on mankind.

In regards to Noah, there is a misinterpretation.

Genesis 7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

v.2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;

v.3 also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth.

v.4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made."

God promised Noah that he would destroy the earth in seven days. How could Noah have been saved seven days prior to the flood? Noah would have had to enter into the ark the same day God gave this promise. But God told Noah to bring animals into the ark. Do you see what I'm showing? Noah was gathering the animals God had commanded during those seven days prior to the flood. Noah was not waiting in the ark for a week.

Further evidence

Genesis 7:7 So Noah, with his sons, his wife, and his sons' wives, went into the ark because of the waters of the flood.

v.8 Of clean animals, of animals that are unclean, of birds, and of everything that creeps on the earth,

v.9 two by two they went into the ark to Noah, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.

v.10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth.

Here is where the confusion begins. Verse 7 shows Noah entering the ark, and verse 10 brings the flood waters. It appears that Noah entered the ark seven days prior to the flood. However, these four verses do not occur chronologically. Notice that although v.7 shows Noah and his family entering the ark, v.8-9 shows the animals still coming into the ark.

Here is the important part:

Genesis 7:12-13 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights. On the very same day Noah and Noah's sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark--

God promised Noah he would destroy the earth in seven days. Noah and his family brought the animals into the ark during those seven days. Then, on the seventh day, Noah and his family entered the ark-- the same day the rain began.

Everyone who is Christian today will be taken in the rapture, not just the holy ones.  These others will not gain any rewards for their life, but they are still his bride.  It takes 7 years to reward Christians and the marriage supper of the lamb. 

Is that really what Jesus promised?

Revelation 3:8-10 "I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie--indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The promise to this church was a reward for their perseverance.

Did Jesus give this promise to the church of Laodicea? Were they not Christians?

Did Jesus give this promise to the church of Sardis? Were they not Christians?

Did the church of Ephesus receive this promise? Were they not Christians?

Did the church of Smyrna receive this promise? Were they not Christians?

Why did the church of Pergamos not receive this promise? Not Christain?

Why did the church of Thyatria not receive this promise? Not Christian?

The promise was given to one church, not the entire body of Christ. No, Jesus did not promise to "keep from the hour" every Christian today.

Rev 4:1 on the church is not spoken of until we return with him at the end of Revelation.

How do we know the church returns with Christ? These verses:

Revelation 19:7-8 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

You interpret the saints of verse 8 to be the church. Why don't you translate saints to be the church in these passages:

Revelation 5:8, Revelation 8:3-4, Revelation 11:18, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 16:6, Revelation 17:6, Revelation 18:24

If the saints are the church in Revelation 19, they are also the church in the above passages. If the saints are not the church in the above passages, neither are they the church in Revelation 19. This is consistent interpretation. There is no reason besides preconceived doctrine to interpret the saints differently.

The church of Philadelphia.....they are kept from the hour to come.  Same with the tribulation period.  Christians are taken from that time to be with God.  Jesus does not come all the way to earth so it is not quite his second coming.  His second coming is as he left....all the way to the mount of Olives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, I ask you to prove each point. Prove that Christians are taken from that time. Prove that Jesus does not come all the way to earth at the Rapture.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings RT,

Sorry, I just discovered that you had responded to my post, so here are my responses:

So DE, since you believe that the tribulation will only be 3 1/2 years, can you tell us what the starting point of this 3 1/2 year trib will be?  How will you know you are in the tribulation, or are you another one who believes that we're already in the tribulation as well?

That day shall not come until the man of sin is revealed. The great Apostacy will occur when the organized churches depart from sound doctrine. However, no one knows the day or the hour, they will only see the season for these things to occur.

But let's just suppose that Christ' 3 1/2 year ministry was the start of Daniel's 70th week as you "post trib/pre-wrathers" believe. If Christ was the one in the middle of the week who put a stop to sacrifice and offering, wouldn't you also be forced to believe that Christ' ministry was the tribulation, and then this tribulation is to be followed by 3 1/2 years or 42 months of God's wrath? So what happens next?

No, the Lord's ministry was not a part of the "great tribulation". Neither in the OT or in the Gospels or Epistles is it revealed how long the tribulation will be, HOWEVER, the Gospels do say those days will be "cut short for the sake of the elect". It is in Revelation that we see the 3 1/2 "great tribulation". All instances referring to 3 1/2 years run concurrently and not consequitively.

The great tribulation and God's Wrath are two separate things, and if you have read any of my other posts to this forum on this subject you would know the difference.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Old Timer]

I made a post similar to this in another thread. This seemed like a good place to repeat it:

Captain J met his bride to be on a remote, isolated and troubled island but had to leave her promising to be back and marry her at a later time. He kept in touch with letters and instructions.

Finally, after waiting and longing for her husband, the future bride heard he was on the way. Good thing, too, for the natives were getting restless, the ground was beginning to tremble, the volcanoes were beginning to smoke and a tsunami was on its way. Yes, Captain J was as good as his word, he was coming to rescue his bride-to-be in his glorious yacht called The Paradise.

But as Captain J approached the island his bride-to-be had some doubts. Would Captain J be in time to save her? Did he truly love her and would he rescue her before the various calamities swept across the island? Would Captain J anchor off shore and watch his bride endure the tribulation just to test her

[Dad Ernie]

Would Captain J arrive before the destruction, during or after? What do you think a loving husband-to-be would do?

Greetings OT,

Very poor analogy. You see the following verses apply to us today:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 16:13-16 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

You see, if Captain J was Christ, He would never leave, nor forsake His bride-to-be, and though he were only there in "spirit", He would also have His angels posted round about her. In this world we are to have tribulations (even the Great Tribulation), yet Christ is always there right with us. If I am to die before His return, I will be "looking up". The Words of His Covenant on my lips, and I shall have not loved this life, even unto my death.

What really bothers me about your post, is that for some reason you think that our Lord will "leave behind" such a multitude of Christians, such a large number we cannot even count them all, to go through the Great Tribulation by themselves. Read Rev 7. The WHOLE Word of God applies just as much to them, as it does to us. Our Lord loves THEM just as much as He does us. AND He is NOT going to leave them behind as you and others may think.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Old Timer]

Dad Ernie, here we go again.

First, I agree it is a poor analogy but I will not concede a "VERY" poor analogy.

Second, you are correct, I should have had Captain J station his soldiers on the island to watch after his future bride.

Third, you are NOT correct when you say I think the Lord will leave behind a multitude of Christians. Where is story of Captian J did you see that?

Finally, answer the final question:

[Dad Ernie]

Finally, answer the final question:

[Old Timer]

You equate the "great tribulation" with God's wrath, which is not the case. When you "learn" the difference between the two, then you will get it straight. There are plenty of examples of both in the scriptures. You might want to start with Moses and the Jews in the Exodus.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, yes, I think we have been all through that once before.

What may be of some interest to you is that I once "knew" that to which you refer and had to unlearn it.