gray_robe Posted January 17, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 You can do everything possible to not appear to be fasting, to not draw attention to it and still find that yourself in a situation where you might need to explain why you are not eating. Most of the time, that's not the case, but an occasion might present itself for whatever reason. Simply mentioning the fast isn't boasting, at least to a thinking person. And yet, in all the examples you gave, there was nothing life threatening or so important that you should feel a need to talk about your fasting. You said that if someone invites you to dinner then you have "no choice" but to tell them you are fasting. Those are your words, Shiloh. A invitation to dinner is hardly a situation where you NEED to talk about your fasting. Your birthday party scenario isn't really analogous to the commandment about fasting because Jesus didn't say that no one could find out that you're fasting. All Jesus said is not to draw attention to yourself like the Pharisees were doing. Sure, and the organizer of the party didn't say Steve could not find out about the party, only that you shouldn't draw attention to it. Of course, when you tell Steve about the party, drawing attention to the party is exactly what you're doing. You just refuse to see it. The problem with the Pharsees was not that they were going around telling people that they were fasting. The instructions on fasting were not addressed to the Pharisees. They were addressed to anyone who would follow Jesus. The reason Jesus gave such teachings is becasue he wanted to communicate to us the values of Heaven. The reason we apply Jesus' teachings is because we want to be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven. Even back in his day, when he was treated as a criminal, Jesus knew people would be attracted to issues like grace, mercy, love, immortality and eternity. But he also knew that people would reject things like discipline and self sacrifice. This is why he asked, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? The problem I see in your approach to this issue is double minded. I don't know anything about you outside this forum, but based on what you've said here, your position is lukewarm. You talk about really caring about the words of Jesus, but then you disregard them for the flimsiest of reasons. Shiloh, take a moment to think about your own examples. You said that if someone invites you to dinner, then you have no choice but to tell them about your fasting. You said that. No choice. Doesn't that tell you anything about your position on secret fasting? You suddenly have no choice but to go against what Jesus said about secret fasting simply because someone asks you if you want a sandwich? You're really standing by that argument? All someone needs to do is to be a bit nosy and you'll tell them about what Jesus said is meant to be "only for God"? Those are the actual words of Jesus, Shiloh. "so only God knows". There's nothing in Jesus' words about exceptions or circumstances where people invite you to dinner or get a bit nosy. You are adding those conditions to what Jesus said, because they are convenient. Jesus said "wash your face so only God will know". So far, no one is accepting your premise. No one who is skilled or competent in the Bible approaches this issue like you do. Even IF what you are saying is an accurate representation of those who have viewed this discussion, I suspect it would only be an indication as to why Jesus said the way is narrow. Convenient doctrines are just too popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 So what about the prayer issue? Jesus said the same stuff about prayer that He said about fasting. Are you against praying in public as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 17, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Shiloh, do you have any idea where this concept of "leading in prayer" (as you describe it) started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 17, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Shiloh, do you have any idea where this concept of "leading in prayer" (as you describe it) started? Answer the question please. Shiloh asked you earlier about how you interpret praying behind closed doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 17, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Hi Fez, How about you? Do you know where this concept of "leading through prayer" started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 You didn't answer my question, gray robe. Do you think that a father leading his family in prayer violates Jesus' statements about prayer in the Sermon on the Mount? I am not interested in discussing where the concept came from. Just answer the question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmbld Posted January 17, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,491 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 1,457 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1971 Share Posted January 17, 2015 One can strive to follow the letter of the law and miss the heart of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 18, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 You didn't answer my question, gray robe. Do you think that a father leading his family in prayer violates Jesus' statements about prayer in the Sermon on the Mount? I am not interested in discussing where the concept came from. Just answer the question... Shiloh, earlier you accused me, several times, of "adding to Jesus' words". Now, when it comes to your interpretation, you quite plainly tell me you don't care where the concept of "leading in prayer" comes from (i.e. whether it's supported by Jesus or not). Your standards seem to change quite easily depending on which interpretation you choose to support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted January 18, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Hi Fez, How about you? Do you know where this concept of "leading through prayer" started? Classic deflection, refusing to answer questions through asking another. Please answer the question Shiloh asked you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_robe Posted January 18, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 Classic deflection, refusing to answer questions through asking another. Please answer the question Shiloh asked you. You're kidding, right? Anyway, first off I'm not refusing anything and secondly, seeing as how Jesus did the same thing, I'd say I'm in pretty good company with my "classic deflection". Fez, what are you really arguing here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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