Christ's Perfection

[Guest shiloh357]

Mr. Nice, you are a broken record.  I have answered these same kinds of questions in other threads over and over.    I am sorry, but you are not a follower of Jesus.  You are someone who places his faith in works not in Christ.  You promote a false Gospel and a false Christianity and fortunately, few people on here are buying into your teachings.

[Mr Nice]

Mr. Nice, you are a broken record.  I have answered these same kinds of questions in other threads over and over.    I am sorry, but you are not a follower of Jesus.  You are someone who places his faith in works not in Christ.  You promote a false Gospel and a false Christianity and fortunately, few people on here are buying into your teachings.

Your response demonstrates you don't truly read what I write.  I have declared nothing but salvation through what Christ provided to us.  Everything we do is because we love Him.  We follow Him through His Spirit.

 

No you have not answered my questions.  You have only attacked me.  Seriously I want you to directly answer my questions.  You claim the Bible does not teach us to cease from all sin and I have given multiple scriptures declaring it and all you do is call myself and others who believe the same false teachers.

 

Answer the question about the lame man and the harlot who Christ told to go and sin no more.  I have never asked this question so answer.  

 

Show me a scripture that says those who continue to fall short of His glory abide in Him, love Him, and know Him.  You can't and that is why you only attack me.

 

Answer the questions.

 

Do you believe Paul when he says he and those with him once were disobedient and deceived?  You have never answered this question.  You know if you answer yes that your belief about Romans 7 is incorrect.  If you claim no, then you are claiming what is written in scripture is a lie.

 

Did Christ say or not say that those who keep his commandments are those who love Him?  You have not answered these questions.

 

Answer the questions.

 

I claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and in so doing I am not fulfilling the desires of the flesh just like Paul states.  Who are you being led by that continues to let you fulfill the desires of the flesh instead of producing the fruit of the Spirit?

 

Answer the questions instead of attacking me.

[Kan]

Hi Kan,

 

Yes Jesus said to Mary, "go an sin no more."   She was evidently a prostitute and Jesus was telling her not participate in that sin any more.   Jesus did not say, "Go and never ever commit a single sin the rest of your life."    To even suggest that Jesus was telling her to live in sinless perfection is a rather sloppy handling of Scripture.

 

I don't think that the Bible endorse reduced sinning, or that a little sin is okay as far as God is concerned.  But neither does the Bible ever give any expectation that Christians will never sin.  The true follower of Jesus will always have a heart that is characterized by a sincere desire to serve the Lord.   But we also each have a sin nature that is unregenerate and we struggle against it all of the time.   Our flesh wars against the Spirit, according to Gal. 5 and it is a struggle we deal with our entire lives.

 

We strive not to sin, but we do.  All of us do, and any Christian who says they did not sin one time in 2014 is lying.  

 

I said this in another thread and it bears noting here as well.  Our perfection is not based on us and our performance.  It is based on the work of Christ on the cross.  He has perfected me by His final offering of Himself  as my sin offering (Hebrews 10: 14-18).   My salvation is based on what Jesus did, not on what I do.   If salvation depends on me being flawless, all is lost.   Salvation depends on Jesus and Jesus alone.

 

Anyone who says that salvation depends on us being 100% flawless and perfect and never committing a single sin, should be marked as a false teacher and should not be included as a member of the body of Christ.   That person is not a genuine follower of Christ.

 

 

You said "WE STRIVE NOT TO SIN, BUT WE DO."

 

That seems like a futile pursuit doesn't it?

 

There must be some merit in the striving, making it a works based religion?

 

I thought we believed "not of works lest any man should boast..."

 

If we sin, how is our life any better than others who strive not?

 

Once again the merit is in the striving. Not victory, but striving. It sounds Catholic, if not Pagan.

 

I thought that if Christ lived in us then victories are gained, nothing to suggest failures.

 

 

But there is one other issue that may need to be discussed, and that is what we define as sin.

Some people think that leaving your elbows on the table is a sin.

I beg to differ, and I think that Jesus who sometimes did not wash His hands before eating, did not sin in that.

So sin has to do with self centered motives, rather than a whole load of idiosyncrasies which are part of life, wouldn't you agree? 

 

If that is the case, then we can have complete victory, because we love Him all the time, and we know He loves us and gives us victory, even the victory of faith, which does not look for evidence of God's leading, but praises Him for it. Faith conquers all doubt and overcomes every obstacle.

But striving...?

 

Does it not say "strive to enter into that REST" which is Christ, don't you think?

 

Are we striving not to sin or striving to rest from our works as God did from His when He created this world? Hebrews 4.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Kan

[Guest shiloh357]

No, Kan it isn't futile, at all.  I strive to continue to live for Jesus, but I am still a work in progress.  I am daily being conformed into his image and there is still a lot about me that doesn't look like Jesus.   It isn't futile because I am getting better all of the time.   Until the day you die, you will still need improvement because each and everyone of us still sins, even if we don't possess the humility to admit it.    You sin every day, whether you have humility and the integrity to admit it.

 

If I sin, I have the grace of God which picks me up and lets me try again.    See the thing is that my service to the Lord is not about striving to be victorious over sin.  I am already victorious over sin because of what Jesus did on the cross.   I am not striving to gain what Jesus already gained for me at the cross. I am not trying win a war that Jesus already won.

 

So as I strive each day to live and be like Jesus, I am doing so from the place of victory.  I am living in the reality that sin has no power over me, but that doesn't mean I am always going to do everything right.  It doesn't mean that I won't mess up.   What it means is that Jesus has already paid the price for my sin.  He has already suffered the death penalty for sin and now I serve Him from the standpoint that I am His child, that my sin is paid for and even when I stumble in a sincere attempt to serve Him, His grace is always there to say, "I forgive you."

 

To say that unless you never, ever commit a single sin, you don't have victory over sin, is to ignore the fact that salvation is the product of Jesus' work and not our own work.  I am living in His victory, the victory won at the cross.   Victory doesn't depend on me.

[hmbld]

It is dangerous to burden a new believer with the expectation that they be perfect. Well aged Christians can't even agree on what is sin. I dare not believe I am equal to Jesus. My righteousness is Jesus. We all come to Jesus as we are. Broken in humbleness. He puts us together. Changes us from the inside. Each is a work in progress for the rest of our lives. To tell someone they must be perfect is a burden nobody can fulfill but Jesus. Trust in Jesus.

[Mr Nice]

It is dangerous to burden a new believer with the expectation that they be perfect. Well aged Christians can't even agree on what is sin. I dare not believe I am equal to Jesus. My righteousness is Jesus. We all come to Jesus as we are. Broken in humbleness. He puts us together. Changes us from the inside. Each is a work in progress for the rest of our lives. To tell someone they must be perfect is a burden nobody can fulfill but Jesus. Trust in Jesus.

 

His commandments are not burdensome so when He tells us those who love, know, and abide in Him are the ones who keeps His commandments He is not placing a burden on us.  The problem is people do not believe they can be like Christ as a Christian, they claim it is impossible.  This belief is not supported in scripture in fact it is refuted multiple times.  Christ Himself says we can be like Him.  

 

Mat 10:22-26  "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.  (23)  "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.  (24)  "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.  (25)  "It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!  (26)  "Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

 

He also sent His Spirit, the same Spirit  through whom He offered Himself without blemish before God, to us so that we can walk as He walked.  Why would John say that those who claim to abide in Him are to walk like Christ walked, if we cannot walk as He walked?

 

1Jn 2:3-6  By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.  (4)  The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;  (5)  but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:  (6)  the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

 

If you teach someone they will always stumble then that is what they will do because they believe they will.  They will believe it is a normal way of life for a Christian and they will never be able to abstain from all wickedness as those who call on the name of the Lord are commanded to do.

 

2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

 

This is the problem with your belief and everyone else who believes the same.  Think about it.

[John Robinson]

Mr. Nice, you've gone over and over this in page after page here. Obviously this is a hot button for you, and just as obviously, most of us disagree. So my question would be, WHY is it so important to you to belabor the point? All of us here are working out our salvation with fear and trembling. As the cartoon says, why not just give us grace to do that, and "let it go"? I mean, if living a sinless life is the gold standard, I suppose when you die and get to heaven you and Jesus will pretty much have the place to yourselves.

[Mr Nice]

Mr. Nice, you've gone over and over this in page after page here. Obviously this is a hot button for you, and just as obviously, most of us disagree. So my question would be, WHY is it so important to you to belabor the point? All of us here are working out our salvation with fear and trembling. As the cartoon says, why not just give us grace to do that, and "let it go"? I mean, if living a sinless life is the gold standard, I suppose when you die and get to heaven you and Jesus will pretty much have the place to yourselves.

 

I continue to belabor the point because you teach people they will continue to stumble/sin.  Your teaching causes others to continue in sin because you teach them they will.  If someone believes they will continue to stumble/sin, that is exactly what they will do.

 

Christ says we have been set free from sin while you claim we will remain slaves to sin, for to the one you obey you are a slave to them.  We cannot serve two masters. We are either slaves of sin which leads to death or slaves to obedience and righteousness, with the outcome of eternal life.  Christ served God and God alone being led by the Spirit leaving us the example to follow.  You claim we can not follow His example so you are claiming we have been given a commandment which we, even through the same Spirit, cannot keep, claiming His commandment is burdensome.  

 

I believe God is patient because He wishes that all men would repent and not perish.  I believe He is working in you but your belief does not allow Him to bring about His purpose which is sanctification by the Spirit.  He doesn't want anyone to stumble which is why He says we have been given everything to life and godliness and that He will always provide a way out.

 

Do you believe He is able to keep you from stumbling by always providing the way out?  If you do, why do you claim we will continue to stumble.  Your belief contradicts what He has declared to us in His word.  Let God do what He said He is able to do, for He is faithful to bring it to pass.  We must ask Him to do it without doubting otherwise we will not receive what He has promised.  James 1:2-8

 

Maybe you will answer my questions directly.

 

Who does the Bible say love, know, and abide in Him, and He in them?  (John 14:15-24, 15:1-14; 1 John 2:3-6, 2:23-29, 3:21-24, 4:13-19, 3:6-10; 2 John 1:5-9, 3 John 1:11)  

 

Do you believe Paul when he said he and those with him once were disobedient and deceived?  Titus 3:3

 

Do you believe as Paul says that those who are led by His Spirit will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, but produce the fruit of the Spirit?  Galatians 5:16-25

 

Do you believe Peter when he says if we practice the fruit of the Spirit that we will not stumble and in this way the entrance into the kingdom will be abundantly supplied to us?  2 Peter 1:1-11

 

Do you believe Peter when he says those who have suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin and live the rest of their days for the will of God?  1 Peter 4.1-6

 

How about John saying that those who love their brother have no cause of stumbling in them?  1 John 2:8-11

 

I do appreciate your feedback.   I only seek to increase your faith in what God has promised us.

[Mr Nice]

No, Kan it isn't futile, at all.  I strive to continue to live for Jesus, but I am still a work in progress.  I am daily being conformed into his image and there is still a lot about me that doesn't look like Jesus.   It isn't futile because I am getting better all of the time.   Until the day you die, you will still need improvement because each and everyone of us still sins, even if we don't possess the humility to admit it.    You sin every day, whether you have humility and the integrity to admit it.

 

If I sin, I have the grace of God which picks me up and lets me try again.    See the thing is that my service to the Lord is not about striving to be victorious over sin.  I am already victorious over sin because of what Jesus did on the cross.   I am not striving to gain what Jesus already gained for me at the cross. I am not trying win a war that Jesus already won.

 

So as I strive each day to live and be like Jesus, I am doing so from the place of victory.  I am living in the reality that sin has no power over me, but that doesn't mean I am always going to do everything right.  It doesn't mean that I won't mess up.   What it means is that Jesus has already paid the price for my sin.  He has already suffered the death penalty for sin and now I serve Him from the standpoint that I am His child, that my sin is paid for and even when I stumble in a sincere attempt to serve Him, His grace is always there to say, "I forgive you."

 

To say that unless you never, ever commit a single sin, you don't have victory over sin, is to ignore the fact that salvation is the product of Jesus' work and not our own work.  I am living in His victory, the victory won at the cross.   Victory doesn't depend on me.

 

Do you believe God is able to keep you from stumbling and that He will always provide a way out?  If you do not then your striving is futile and will lead to nothing.  It is only when you believe in what God has promised us that your striving will amount to what god's purpose is for each of us, which is sanctification through His Spirit.  

 

Who are you to claim everyone continues to sin when the Bible does not teach what you believe?  Who made you judge?  God says we are not to judge the world but those who are so called brothers.  Be careful about what you claim.

 

1Co 5:8-13  Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.  (9)  I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;  (10)  I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.  (11)  But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.  (12)  For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?  (13)  But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

 

When Paul speaks of doing more it is only in regards to excelling even more in love.  When it comes to sin he only speaks of stopping and ceasing from sin, never about striving against sin.

 

1Th 4:1-12  Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.  (2)  For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.  (3)  For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;  (4)  that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,  (5)  not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;  (6)  and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.  (7)  For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.  (8)  So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.  (9)  Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;  (10)  for indeed you do practice it toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more,  (11)  and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you,  (12)  so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

 

We are to overcome sin through Him and His Spirit.  If we are still sinning then we are not victorious.  Jesus paved the way but we must walk in it.  If we continue to sin then sin still has power over us.  Paul says it is those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God and He also says those who are led by the Spirit will not fulfill the desire of the flesh.  If we continue to sin then we are not being led by His Spirit and therefore we cannot claim we are sons of God.  There is no way to read these verses any differently.

 

It is his work on the cross that forgives us of our past sins and his work in us through His Spirit that keeps us from sin.  So yes we have victory through Him, but it is complete victory.  Victory depends on us believing in what God has promised us.  If we do not believe He is able to keep us from stumbling by always providing the way out then we will not have victory, for it is our faith that overcomes the world.  If nothing depends on us then we do not even have to believe. 

 

1Co 15:56-58  The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;  (57)  but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.  (58)  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

 

1Jn 5:1-5  Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.  (2)  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.  (3)  For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.  (4)  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.  (5)  Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

2Pe 2:18-20  For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,  (19)  promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.  (20)  For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

 

All of the following verses are speaking about us overcoming and do not declare we overcome because of Christ’s work on the cross.  They overcome because they listened to what the Spirit had to say and have done as they have been instructed.  This is the Spirit sent to them because Christ died on the cross and returned to the Father.  It is through Christ that we overcome by His Spirit.

 

1Jn 2:13-14  I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.  (14)  I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

 

1Jn 4:4-7  You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.  (5)  They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.  (6)  We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.  (7)  Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

 

Rev 2:7  'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

 

Rev 2:11  'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

 

Rev 2:17  'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'

 

Rev 2:25-29  'Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.  (26)  'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;  (27)  AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;  (28)  and I will give him the morning star.  (29)  'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

 

Rev 3:4-5  'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.  (5)  'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

Rev 3:12  'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

 

Rev 3:21  'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

 

Rev 21:6-8  Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.  (7)  "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.  (8)  "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

 

I will state this again. No one ever received anything God promised unless they did exactly as He commanded them.  Even Christ had to do exactly as the Father commanded to receive His glory.  The only difference between before and after Christ is we now can directly receive His Spirit just like Christ did to guide us in the way we should walk.  This is why He died for our past sins.  The Spirit cannot dwell where sin resides.

[Kan]

No, Kan it isn't futile, at all.  I strive to continue to live for Jesus, but I am still a work in progress.  I am daily being conformed into his image and there is still a lot about me that doesn't look like Jesus.   It isn't futile because I am getting better all of the time.   Until the day you die, you will still need improvement because each and everyone of us still sins, even if we don't possess the humility to admit it.    You sin every day, whether you have humility and the integrity to admit it.

 

If I sin, I have the grace of God which picks me up and lets me try again.    See the thing is that my service to the Lord is not about striving to be victorious over sin.  I am already victorious over sin because of what Jesus did on the cross.   I am not striving to gain what Jesus already gained for me at the cross. I am not trying win a war that Jesus already won.

 

So as I strive each day to live and be like Jesus, I am doing so from the place of victory.  I am living in the reality that sin has no power over me, but that doesn't mean I am always going to do everything right.  It doesn't mean that I won't mess up.   What it means is that Jesus has already paid the price for my sin.  He has already suffered the death penalty for sin and now I serve Him from the standpoint that I am His child, that my sin is paid for and even when I stumble in a sincere attempt to serve Him, His grace is always there to say, "I forgive you."

 

To say that unless you never, ever commit a single sin, you don't have victory over sin, is to ignore the fact that salvation is the product of Jesus' work and not our own work.  I am living in His victory, the victory won at the cross.   Victory doesn't depend on me.

 

I get what you are saying, and I agree. I can see though, that improving does not necessarily mean that sin is present. It could be and it may not be. In my case I am cast in sin, but I would be lying if I say that Christ is neglecting me.

 

I don't see sinless perfection as being refined in every possible way, but just a life without sin, without breaking off from God. 

I don't know where to draw the line with sin and improvement, because I am damaged by sin, so like you, I have to live by faith.

I don't like looking at myself because there is no good there. The Bible as you know requires us to examine ourselves, but only whether we be in the faith, it does not recommend examining ourselves whether we are performing or not, because we are likely to lie to ourselves.

So in the end I remain a sinner in my own eyes, and whether I am saved or not, I do not want to know anything except the goodness of God. I hope that by the time that Christ arrives that I will love Him as I ought. I would not expect any less of God.