Christ's Perfection

[Kan]

Thanks for that, Shiloh,

 

I don't have exactly the same opinion about his statements, but I think I understand where you are coming from.

 

The life without sin of Jesus Christ was achieved by His faith and obedience to the Father, as a man must be.

He succeeded where Adam failed, except Christ succeeded in weakened humanity and not in the glorious state that Adam had.

 

Christ did not sin because as a man He remained dependent on the Father, as we must remain dependent on Christ.

So Christ is the example for man, I am sure you agree.

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus' sinlessness was at a level that we cannot attain.  Jesus was born without sin  and Jesus not only lived a perfect life from day one, but He did what we cannot do.  Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the law.   Jesus' perfection an example for us, but what Mr. Nice asserts is that we are supposed to be a the same level as Jesus.

 

Where Jesus is set as our example is in how He modeled the way to deal with temptation, how to pray, how to live dependent on God, etc.  Nowhere does the Bible anticipate that we would live perfectly sinless after we get saved.  But that's what Mr. Nice asserts.

[Sevenseas]

MR. NICE:

 

 

 

First, I do agree that Jesus has always been and I have never stated otherwise, so please don't claim I have because that is bearing false witness.  God did provide the sacrifice.  The sacrifice was not in the form of God but man.  Why? Christ had to come in the flesh to be made the faithful high priest, learning obedience through the things He suffered, in order to be the perfect sacrifice.  As deity, Christ did not fit the mold God had planned which is why God sent Him to earth in the flesh.  Christ was perfected in the flesh.  This is the connection you are missing.  I am diminishing nothing of His deity but only representing God's plan from the beginning.  As I have previously stated, man was created as a completely faithful seed but we chose to turn from God.  Christ was sent to this earth in the same fashion, but lived the life we were created to live as a servant of God.  Christ did this in the flesh demonstrating God’s plan for us and to show how we also can be one with the Father.

 

 

You seem to have a knack for defending your position by burdening other posters with things they never wrote, intended or intimated.  I notice that you have done that over and over

with Shiloh's posts.  Now, you are doing so with the one response to your assertions that I addressed yesterday.

 

Let's be honest here.  I find it hard to believe that you fail to acknowledge I addressed the same belief you have concerning Jesus leaving partial diety in heaven, as have other posters.

 

Rather, you attempt to divert my response to you concerning that ONE thing by trying to claim I have falsely accused you of stating that Jesus is not eternal...as per the highlighted text

from your post above.

 

 

shiloh357, on 19 Jan 2015 - 5:51 PM, said:

So Mr. Nice you deny that Jesus was God while during His earthly ministry?  If so that is heresy.  No amount of your theological gymnastics with the Bible will change that.

I never stated He was not God. I stated he gave up part of His godhood so He would be like us on earth. Please use scripture to demonstrate what I claim to be heresy. It is one thing to claim someone is speaking heresy and another to prove it. Read my response to Butero. 

 

 

And voila, we have above in your own words, your belief that Jesus gave up 'part' of His deity.  I gave two scripture references that indicate He placed Himself on the same plane as

God while He was on earth as both God and man.  My entire post addressed THAT belief.  Diversion is a handy tactic, but it's not working here, so perhaps you could

actually respond to what I wrote instead of threatening me with being a false witness.  Of what spirit are you, that you are so accusatory and cannot actually respond in truth

to what is written to you?

 

I will also state that He did NOT live the life we were created to live.  We were created to live sinlessly by our Creator in paradise...the Garden of Eden...and take care of the earth.

We were not created to cast out devils, heal the sick or walk on water.  These things Jesus did, He did as the Son of God sent to earth to be the perfect sacrifice that would be given

once and for ALL time...holy and acceptable to God.  The miracles were given to indicate the truth of the words Jesus spoke and to confirm His claims that He was indeed

'I AM' as He declared Himself...which you refuse to see or actually misunderstand...I am not sure which.

 

We, can never live in a sinless state on this earth and the Bible does not indicate that we will.  If that is what you believe, it is further indication of your private interpretation which

is not biblical and is not from the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

I take my faith probably more seriously than most because of what I believe.  I diligently study His Word to ensure what I believe is true.  I once believed the way most people have responded believe, but I no longer can.  I study even more because I know what it means if what I believe is true about our salvation.  If it is true, then it would mean a substantial portion of those who claim to believe will be lost.  I mean no disrespect to anyone.  We are told narrow is the gate and straight is the path that leads to heaven and few will enter.  That few may very well mean much less than those who claim they are saved, because God says it isn’t those who claim to be doing things in His name that will enter heaven, but those who do the will of the Father will enter.

 

Really?  and how do you know that?  You are really out on a limb here ascribing to yourself a better and more enduring faith than others have.  It seems you align your faith with

your personal interpretation and then judge others according to your own standards.  

 

You state if what you believe is true, then many will be lost and not saved. 

 

So then, the question becomes:  How do you believe we are saved? 

 

I would seriously appreciate your answer to that question.

[Kan]

Jesus' sinlessness was at a level that we cannot attain.  Jesus was born without sin  and Jesus not only lived a perfect life from day one, but He did what we cannot do.  Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the law.   Jesus' perfection an example for us, but what Mr. Nice asserts is that we are supposed to be a the same level as Jesus.

 

Where Jesus is set as our example is in how He modeled the way to deal with temptation, how to pray, how to live dependent on God, etc.  Nowhere does the Bible anticipate that we would live perfectly sinless after we get saved.  But that's what Mr. Nice asserts.

Yes the Bible makes it plain that Jesus did what we cannot do. 

And I believe what He did in justification He can also do in sanctification. He is the same substitute for both needs. I do not believe that the Bible teaches, continued sinning. However it recognizes that we will sin in Christian growth, so it provides texts like, if we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ... and if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive...etc.

 

I guess we agree that we do not like where the idea of perfection after conversion leads, because too often it causes people to center their religion around their own performance, which is not faith but sin, "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

 

There are plenty of texts that show sinless living in Christ, but that walking with Christ is about keeping our life open to Him, and not hiding sins. That in God's eyes is sinlessness.

 

We know Judas had a problem which if he had talked about with Christ, it could have been resolved and overcome, but because he was secretive about his sin and he ended up keeping it until death.

 

"There is no condemnation to those that walk after the spirit and not after the flesh."

While we trust and expect Christ to have no tolerance for sin, we cannot afford to focus on our performance, which is where perfectionism can lead us. I believe you are making that point.

 

I believe Jesus is the example to keep in heart and mind, and that He is our substitute both for sin and for our new life in Him.

He justifies and sanctifies the believer. 

It is not Biblical to believe that the saints will sin right up until the return of Christ, because God will have trophies in the contest between good and evil, just as He had in the days of Noah, Job, Daniel, Joseph, Elijah, Enoch etc.

 

The narrow road mentioned in Mr Nice's post, is not narrow because it involves efforts towards self analysis and performance, but because people do not want to relate with Jesus, they keep their distance because they have sins and feelings which reject His presence, and they will not make any efforts (here is where the work is) to pray to God for help. Judas could have come to Jesus in private and said, "Lord I can't get over not having wealth and power, I don't want to know what you have to say because I know you don't like it, but here I am." 

 

The striving of the Christian towards the narrow gate, is to learn how to rest and trust in Christ and to leave self out of the question, because we know that "the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things, who can know it?"

 

The definition of sinlessness/perfection has little to do with performance, and more to do with heart, because this is what God sees, measures and wants. We look toward outward signs, we even judge Christ outwardly. Motive is everything to God, because all actions that follow are a product of it. 

So a person may appear righteous, but they are full of themselves as we can expect with ourselves as sinners.

These were the sins which were confessed on the day of Pentecost, self interest and distrust towards God and others of like faith, not so much anything petty, like I stole your book mark in the library.

Sinners make up petty rules about righteousness, like the Pharisees, and that is why sinless living seems to be such a threat to many people as you can understand.

The righteous living granted by Christ is one of a growing and deepening trust, which is achieved despite our mistakes.

[Kan]

Sevenseas,

 

You said the Bible does not teach sinless living after conversion. By our definition of perfection and sinlessness, sure it does not teach that, but it teaches the righteousness of Christ coming out of the believer.

We accept that by faith, because we are not in the position to judge ourselves correctly or others as our experience tells, so we leave it up to God to be "the author and finisher of our faith."

So if we don't sin, we are not aware of it, because we have to rely on Christ, we cannot afford to measure ourselves against ourselves, we can only look at Jesus, at His perfect trust in the Father.

 

 

You know as soon as someone claims to be sinless they are lying. So a person who is sinless does not know it and does not want to know, because as far as they are concerned every thing that they do has been through self interest, and they only see Christ as worthy of any of God's approval.

Yet this is salvation as the OT says "a contrite heart I will not despise."

 

I don't think Mr Nice is saying that he is sinless or above anyone. Once we recognize that we are all in the same position of need with Christ, and that yet He sanctifies us, then the habit of comparing ourselves by works and words will end.

 

The fear of accepting sanctification by faith, comes from the works of the flesh which are fueled by self love and competition godliness. the disciples were competing with each other right up till Christ left the earth.

 

Perfection and sinlessness in God's eyes has to do with the heart, so the sinner in the synagogue who plead for God's mercy was justified, while the Pharisee who presented his righteousness to God was not heard.

 

If we accept that sinning in moderation is what the Christian life is, compared to unbelievers, we are kidding ourselves. It is not until we are undone and hopeless in all our works, that Christ can begin a new work of removing sinful habits entirely from our lives. And He works from the inside to the outside, so we cannot judge what He does with us or others. But we will begin to love and accept others far more than before, which is what Jesus came to do for us.

 

Hebrews 4:10 says that God will cause His people to cease from their own sins, in what they see as in moderation - or in their own works, so that they can rest in Christ. There is no need to rest in Christ if we have some merit in sinning less than others after conversion.

[Mr Nice]

MR. NICE:

 

 

 

First, I do agree that Jesus has always been and I have never stated otherwise, so please don't claim I have because that is bearing false witness.  God did provide the sacrifice.  The sacrifice was not in the form of God but man.  Why? Christ had to come in the flesh to be made the faithful high priest, learning obedience through the things He suffered, in order to be the perfect sacrifice.  As deity, Christ did not fit the mold God had planned which is why God sent Him to earth in the flesh.  Christ was perfected in the flesh.  This is the connection you are missing.  I am diminishing nothing of His deity but only representing God's plan from the beginning.  As I have previously stated, man was created as a completely faithful seed but we chose to turn from God.  Christ was sent to this earth in the same fashion, but lived the life we were created to live as a servant of God.  Christ did this in the flesh demonstrating God’s plan for us and to show how we also can be one with the Father.

 

 

You seem to have a knack for defending your position by burdening other posters with things they never wrote, intended or intimated.  I notice that you have done that over and over

with Shiloh's posts.  Now, you are doing so with the one response to your assertions that I addressed yesterday.

 

Let's be honest here.  I find it hard to believe that you fail to acknowledge I addressed the same belief you have concerning Jesus leaving partial diety in heaven, as have other posters.

 

Rather, you attempt to divert my response to you concerning that ONE thing by trying to claim I have falsely accused you of stating that Jesus is not eternal...as per the highlighted text

from your post above.

 

 

shiloh357, on 19 Jan 2015 - 5:51 PM, said:

So Mr. Nice you deny that Jesus was God while during His earthly ministry?  If so that is heresy.  No amount of your theological gymnastics with the Bible will change that.

I never stated He was not God. I stated he gave up part of His godhood so He would be like us on earth. Please use scripture to demonstrate what I claim to be heresy. It is one thing to claim someone is speaking heresy and another to prove it. Read my response to Butero. 

 

 

And voila, we have above in your own words, your belief that Jesus gave up 'part' of His deity.  I gave two scripture references that indicate He placed Himself on the same plane as

God while He was on earth as both God and man.  My entire post addressed THAT belief.  Diversion is a handy tactic, but it's not working here, so perhaps you could

actually respond to what I wrote instead of threatening me with being a false witness.  Of what spirit are you, that you are so accusatory and cannot actually respond in truth

to what is written to you?

 

I will also state that He did NOT live the life we were created to live.  We were created to live sinlessly by our Creator in paradise...the Garden of Eden...and take care of the earth.

We were not created to cast out devils, heal the sick or walk on water.  These things Jesus did, He did as the Son of God sent to earth to be the perfect sacrifice that would be given

once and for ALL time...holy and acceptable to God.  The miracles were given to indicate the truth of the words Jesus spoke and to confirm His claims that He was indeed

'I AM' as He declared Himself...which you refuse to see or actually misunderstand...I am not sure which.

 

We, can never live in a sinless state on this earth and the Bible does not indicate that we will.  If that is what you believe, it is further indication of your private interpretation which

is not biblical and is not from the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

I take my faith probably more seriously than most because of what I believe.  I diligently study His Word to ensure what I believe is true.  I once believed the way most people have responded believe, but I no longer can.  I study even more because I know what it means if what I believe is true about our salvation.  If it is true, then it would mean a substantial portion of those who claim to believe will be lost.  I mean no disrespect to anyone.  We are told narrow is the gate and straight is the path that leads to heaven and few will enter.  That few may very well mean much less than those who claim they are saved, because God says it isn’t those who claim to be doing things in His name that will enter heaven, but those who do the will of the Father will enter.

 

Really?  and how do you know that?  You are really out on a limb here ascribing to yourself a better and more enduring faith than others have.  It seems you align your faith with

your personal interpretation and then judge others according to your own standards.  

 

You state if what you believe is true, then many will be lost and not saved. 

 

So then, the question becomes:  How do you believe we are saved? 

 

I would seriously appreciate your answer to that question.

Hopefully this will answer all of your questions.  Hopefully you will answer all of mine.

 

My apologies if I misunderstood your statement about Christ's deity.  I want to be sure I am not misunderstanding your statement about Christ’s deity.  Do you believe Christ left part of His deity in heaven with the Father when He came to earth in the flesh?  I believe He left His glory, which is part of His deity.  It is that which the Father gave Him in the beginning.  Leaving this part of Him is the reason He had to rely on the Father.   This is why the Holy Spirit was sent to Him.  Is this what you believe?  If not, then you and others (except Kan) do not believe as I do which makes the following statement you made false.

 

"Let's be honest here.  I find it hard to believe that you fail to acknowledge I addressed the same belief you have concerning Jesus leaving partial diety in heaven, as have other posters."

 

What were we created to do?

 

We were created to do the will of the Father whatever that may be.  For Adam and Eve it was caring for the Garden of Eden.  For Abraham it was to leave His homeland and go to the land promised by God and to offer his son as a sacrifice to demonstrate his fear of the Lord, so that we all could be blessed.  Noah built the Ark to save his family from the flood.  Joseph was to be a man of God that saved his family from the famine.  We  are all created to do His will, including casting out demons, healing the sick, or even casting a mountain into the sea if it is God’s will we should.  The Apostles and others also performed the miracles that Jesus performed.  Do you deny this fact?  Do you not believe that the prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much?

 

Jas 5:13-18  Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.  (14)  Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;  (15)  and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.  (16)  Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.  (17)  Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.  (18)  Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.

 

Sinless State

 

Again I have never stated anyone has lived their entire life without sin except for Christ.  What I have stated and that has no scripture speaking against it is that a Christian (one who has believed Jesus is the Son of God, confessed and repented of their sins, was baptized for the forgiveness of their sins, and received the Holy Spirit) can and has been commanded to sin no longer.  This is why Christ sent the Holy Spirit.   We have the Spirit to guide us just like the Spirit guided Christ through all His trials/temptations.  As a Christian we can live without committing sin if we are led by His Spirit.  To claim otherwise is to claim God is a liar.

 

Not from the Holy Spirit

 

Did the Spirit inspire the Apostles to write the New Testament?  Yes.   Did Paul state through this inspiration that those who are led by the Spirit will not fulfill the desires of the flesh?  Yes.  Did Peter state through the Spirit that those who have suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh (i.e. learned obedience through the things He suffered) have ceased from sin, and live the rest of their days for the will of God?  Yes.  Did Paul claim through the Spirit that he and those with him once were disobedient (i.e. no longer are disobedient)? Yes.  What part of my claim then is not from the Holy Spirit?  It is from the word which He inspired to be written.

 

Take my faith more seriously than most

 

Most people to whom I talk, no matter what denomination they are from, cannot defend their faith.  This is the basis of my statement.  It isn’t about judging or disrespecting others as I stated, for there are those who do diligently study to better understand what they believe like you and others who have been defending their faith on this forum.  My emphasis is in that I don’t want anyone to perish.  I don’t take what I believe lightly because what it means for many.  I have spent years trying to prove myself wrong and I cannot.

 

How are we saved? 

 

We all agree we must believe in Christ.  The extent of that belief is where I am sure we differ, mostly because I believe the faith required by God demands action.  No one in the Bible every received anything promised by God without doing that which He commanded, why do you believe it is different for us now?

 

We are saved by grace, through faith in the promise God made to Abraham.  The Holy Spirit Is the Spirit of promise which we receive by faith.  It is through sanctification by the Spirit who was sent to us by Christ that we are saved.  Christ’s sacrifice cleansed us of our past sins while the Spirit keeps us from future sin.  Without the forgiveness of sins the Spirit could not reside within us.  This sanctification comes from being a slave to obedience by the Spirit’s guidance.  This leads to righteousness with the outcome being eternal life.  Romans 6, Galatians 5:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-17, Hebrews 12:14-16.  Christ and the Holy Spirit are a package deal. Both are required for us to be saved.

 

Who will be saved?

 

Those who feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, they are those who are righteous and will receive the eternal reward.  Matthew 25:31-46.

Those who give up all for Christ will receive eternal life.  Mark 10:29-30

Those who love the Lord with ALL their heart, soul, strength, and mind and love their neighbor as themselves.  Luke 10:25-28

Those who believe in and obey the Son will have eternal life.  John 3:36, Hebrews 5:7-10

Those who believe in the Son, hearing His words and do good deeds, will receive the resurrection of life.  John 5:24-29

Those who serve and follow Him will be given eternal life.  John 10:25-29, 12:23-26

Those who hear His sayings and keep them will not be judged by Him and they will receive eternal life.  John 12:44-50

Those who persevere in doing good, seeking glory and honor and immortality, will be given eternal life.  Romans 2:4-11

Those who sow to the Spirit will reap eternal life.  Galatians 6:7-10

Those who are faithful, endure, don’t deny Christ, and die to sin the way Christ died to sin, and accurately handle the word of truth will receive eternal life.  2Timothy 2:7-15

Those who call on the Lord and abstain from wickedness and they will be useful to the Master.  2 Timothy 2:19-21

Those who humble themselves before God will be exalted.  1 Peter 5:6

Those who practice the fruit of the Spirit will never stumble and in this way the entrance into heaven will be supplied to them.  2 Peter 1:5-11

Those who let what they have heard abide in them and practice righteousness are born of Him and abide in Him. 1 John 2:21-29

Those who love in deed and in truth and keep His commandments abide in Him. 1 John 3:18-24

Those who keep themselves in the love of God and wait anxiously for the mercy of the Lord.  Jude 1:20-24

Those who deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow Him will save his life.  Matthew 16:24-27

Those who hate their life on this earth will save their lives and those who serve Christ will be honored by the Father.  John 12:24-26

Those who draw near to God through Him will be saved.  Hebrews 7:25

Those who receive, accept, and do according to His word will be justified and will save their souls.  He who bridles his tongue has a worthy religion and those who take care of orphans and widows and keep themselves unstained by the world have a pure and undefiled religion.   James 1:21-27

Those who have an active faith, doing the will of the Father are righteous and justified.  James 2:20-26

Those who turn from the error of their way will be saved.  James 5:19-20

Those who are baptized will be saved.  1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:41

Those who endure until the end will be saved.  Matthew 10:22, 24:13

Those who believe and are baptized will be saved.  Mark 16:16, Acts 16:29-33

Those who have faith are saved.  Luke 7:50

Those who hear the word with an honest and good heart, hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance will be saved.  Luke 8:15

Those who practice the truth come to the Light, so that their deeds are manifested as having been wrought in God.  John 3:21

Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.  Acts 2:21

Those who are justified by His blood will be saved.  Romans 5:9

Those who confess with their mouth and believe in their heart will be saved.  Romans 10:8-13

We are saved by grace through faith.  Ephesians 2:5-10

Those who love the truth will be saved.  Those who are sanctified by the Spirit and faith in the truth will be saved.  2 Thessalonians 2:8-17

We are saved by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.  Titus 3:3-8

We are saved by the gospel for it is the power of salvation to those who believe and live by faith.  Romans 1:16-21

Those who love their neighbor because they have fulfilled the Law, demonstrating the love of God will be saved.  Those who lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light, making no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts will be saved.  Romans 13:8-14

Those who have godly sorrow and repent without regret, proving themselves to be innocent in the matter, will be saved.  2 Corinthians 7:6-11

Those who put on the full armor of God will be saved.  Ephesians 6:10-18

Those who conduct themselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ and suffer for His sake.  Philippians 1:27-30

Those who work out the salvation with fear and trembling, doing the will of the Father, proving themselves to be blameless and innocent , children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation.  Philippians 2:12-16

Those who have faith, hope and love.  1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

Those who discipline themselves for the purpose of godliness will ensure salvation for themselves and those who hear them.  1 Timothy 4:7-16

Those who die with Christ, endure with Him, remain faithful, and do not deny Him will obtain salvation.  2 Timothy 2:8-13

Those who have received wisdom from the sacred writings, trained in righteousness, adequate and equipped for every good work.  2 Timothy 3:15-17

Those who have received the instruction from grace (The Spirit of Grace) and have learned to deny ungodliness and worldly desires, and are living sensibly, righteously, and godly in the present age.  Titus 2:11-15

Those whose faith has been proven will be saved.  1 Peter 1:1-9

Those who put aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and slander, and long for the pure milk of the word, offering up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Christ.  1 Peter 2:1-5

Those who are diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless and regard the patience of the Lord as salvation.  2 Peter 3:7-18

Those who receive the blessing (the Holy Spirit) promised to Abraham by faith.  Galatians 3:13-14

Those who come to repentance.  2 Peter 3:9

Those who receive and truly accept the promises of God.  2 Corinthians 1:18-22

Those who have the promises of God and cleanse themselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.  2 Corinthians 7:1

Those who have faith and patience.  Hebrews 6:11-12

Those who have received the promises of God and have become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.  2 Peter 1:1-4

Those who are spoken of in Matthew 5.

Those who keep and teach the commandments of God.  Matthew 5:19

Those whose righteousness passes that of the Pharisees.  Matthew 5:20

Those who love their enemies and pray for those who persecute them.   Those who are perfect in love as their Father in heaven is perfect in love.  Matthew 5:43-48

Those who forgive others.  Matthew 6:12, Mark 11:25-26

Those who bear good fruit.  Matthew 7:15-20

Those who do the will of the Father.  Matthew 7:21-23, 12:48-50

Those who confess Him before men.  Matthew 10:32-33

Those who humble themselves like a child.  Matthew 18:4

Those who are hated, ostracized and scorned for the sake of Christ.  Luke 6:21-23

Those who repent.  Luke 15:4-7

Those who no longer engage in evil deeds, having been reconciled to God and continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast in order to be presented before Him holy and blameless and above reproach.  Colossians 1:18-23

Those who repent and overcome.  Letters to the seven churches.

Those who produce the fruit of the kingdom.  Matthew 21:42-44

Those who do not look back.  Luke 9:57-62

Those who store up treasures in heaven.  Luke 12

Those who are born of the water and the Spirit.  John 3:5-8

Those who go through many trials and tribulations.  Acts 14:21-22

Those who do no evil.  Galatians 5:19-21,1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Ephesians 5:3-14

Those who persevere through faith and love.  2 Thessalonians 1:3-12

Those who love Him.  James 2:5

Those who are walking according to the Spirit have had the righteous requirement of the Law fulfilled for them by Christ, Romans 8:1-14.  Those who walk according to the Spirit do not sin, having put to death the deeds of the flesh, and these are called the sons of God.   Acts 26:20, Galatians 5:22-25

I could continue to state those who will be saved but I believe this is sufficient.  In the end, the one thing all of these have in common is that they love God from a pure heart and are led by his Spirit, producing the fruit of the Spirit and deeds in accordance with repentance.  We are not saved because we simply believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.  We are saved by a faith that acts on all the promises given to us so Christ may be glorified in us through love.

 

If we sin then we are still one of those who will not enter the kingdom of heaven.  It took one sin to separate all of mankind from God, how much more will we be separated from Him if we reject the guidance of the promised Holy Spirit and continue to sin.  If we lie once, we are liars.  If we kill one person we are murderers.  If we steal a single piece of candy, we are thieves.  How do you believe that you are still saved if you continue to sin?  It is those who obey Christ who will receive the kingdom.  Sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting, etc. is not obedience to Christ.  You continue to claim we cannot cease from sin, but this is exactly what the Bible declares.  Paul states repeatedly that there were some who formerly were separated and engaged in evil deeds, who once were disobedient, etc.  Peter says that those who have suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin, and live the rest of their days for the will of God.  Do you deny these things?  As I said before, you claim Romans 7 is Paul speaking about His life as a Christian, yet everything he claims about himself and those with him in his other letters contradict your belief.

 

If it is not possible to keep the command of God without stain as a Christian why did Paul charge Timothy with the following?

 

1Ti 6:13-16  I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,  (14)  that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,  (15)  which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,  (16)  who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

 

1Ti 5:20-22  Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.  (21)  I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.  (22)  Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

 

Or why does he say that none of the deeds of the flesh should even be named among them if it is impossible to completely cease from sin?

 

Eph 5:1-13  Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;  (2)  and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.  (3)  But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;  (4)  and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.  (5)  For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.  (6)  Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.  (7)  Therefore do not be partakers with them;  (8)  for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light  (9)  (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),  (10)  trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.  (11)  Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;  (12)  for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.  (13)  But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.

 

For a man you claim continued to do that which he did not want to do he was awfully hypocritical, because he even said he would punish all disobedience once their obedience was compete.  He must have been punishing himself all the time if he was describing his life as a Christian in Romans 7.  To chastise other believers and then shove it in their face that he is of Christ when he is being disobedient just as they are.

 

2Co 10:5-7  We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,  (6)  and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.  (7)  You are looking at things as they are outwardly. If anyone is confident in himself that he is Christ's, let him consider this again within himself, that just as he is Christ's, so also are we.

 

However, Paul was not hypocritical in his commands to the believers because he claims he once was disobedient and deceived, but now he takes every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.  This sure doesn’t sound like a person who continually did what he did not want to do.  He was renewed by the Spirit to become the completely faithful seed once again.

 

Tit 3:3-7  For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.  (4)  But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,  (5)  He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,  (6)  whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,  (7)  so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

2Co 10:3-6  For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,  (4)  for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.  (5)  We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,  (6)  and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.

 

You say you have faith yet don’t believe that through His Spirit and the promises of God you can completely serve Him.  Why?  Why do you want to believe that you will continue to fail and disappoint the God you claim to love?  God says he will always provide a way out and that He is able to keep us from stumbling.  Do you believe what God has told us?  Why can you not block all the flaming arrows of Satan with your shield of faith?

 

I would also appreciate your answers to these questions.

[Guest shiloh357]

Mr. Nice you are really at good posting online novels and quoting immense amount of Scriptures.  But then the Mormons do the same thing.  The most effective cultists  and false teachers  out there are the ones that use the Bible.

 

Like most cultists, you are able to string verses of the Bible together to make it say anything you want.    You quote Scripture, but you interpret Scripture through the filter of your works-based theology.   For example.  You quoted Matthew 24:13   "those that endure to the end shall be saved."    But that verse is in the context of the Great Tribulation.   Jesus was talking about people being preserved through the Great Tribulation.   He was not talking about salvation from  sin.    You don't pay any attention to the verses you use or their context or the intent of the author.

 

You fail to understand that the New Testament uses salvation 5 different ways.  (Healing, preservation, deliverance, security and restoration).   So not every verse that mentions salvation talking about salvation from sin.   Matt. 24:13 is talking about being physically preserved through the Great Tribulation, not salvation from sin.   

 

Another example of your sloppy and cultic handling of Scripture is your quote of Phil. 2:12-16.  " Working out your salvation"  means, "to put on display."   The Greek word used for "working out" is a word that refers to the outworking, the display, or showing forth of something.   Your approach interprets the verse as meaning "work for" your salvation with fear and trembling.   I would also point out that Paul was talking to  congregation, not to  a person.   He was telling the Philippian congregation that as a congregation, they are to put their salvation on display in their community.  They were living in a Roman colony and Paul was reminding them of their responsibility as a congregation to show forth the Gospel to those around them.

 

You take verse and after verse and you run it through a filter that teaches that if a person commits a single sin, they are doomed.   In your theology grace is only for the perfect people who never sin, which shows that you don't understand grace.   You also define the key theological terms to fit your theology and that is true of most cultists I have come in contact with.

 

You have your own version of Christianity, not the authentic New Testament faith that we see in Scripture.   You have a completely different faith.   It is a religion or ideology that depends on works, not on Jesus.  Jesus is just a footnote in your ideology.   YOU, in your theology are the savior.  You are the one saving yourself.   In fact, your theology makes God the enemy.   You are saving yourself from God because it is God who sends you to hell for committing a single sin. 

 

You need  to repent of your sin, and your false Gospel and become an authentic follower of Jesus.  As it stands, your teaching is no Christian, is not biblical and it places you outside the authentic New Testament faith, as you are relying on your own perfection to make you right with God.

[Kan]

Mr Nice, 

You have quoted many texts that show how one may be saved, and it is overwhelming, because as pointed out by the above post, each text was applicable in a certain situation. As readers of the Bible for our daily bread, we also only take one text at a time, specific for our daily needs, but to heap every spiritual injunction of the scriptures into one moment and thought does not favor Christian growth, you can't water a garden by putting it under 4 feet of water.

 

As a child I did not know who Jesus was or that there was a sacrifice, but I knew what sin was, it was breaking the friendship with God. I knew nothing else except to be friends with God. Salvation has to boil down to such simplicity, and like many, as an adult I have found complications, which we will have to let go, because unless we become as little children we will not enter heaven.

 

All of the requirements in scripture for salvation reside in Christ, and through His companionship we are protected and changed by His presence. His work is very profound and with long term intentions, and beyond our awareness. 

[Kan]

And God bless you for your diligence in pulling the texts together.

[hmbld]

 

You fail to understand that the New Testament uses salvation 5 different ways.  (Healing, preservation, deliverance, security and restoration).   So not every verse that mentions salvation talking about salvation from sin.   Matt. 24:13 is talking about being physically preserved through the Great Tribulation, not salvation from sin.   

 

 

 

I appreciate how often you take the time to explain context and intent.  These 5 different ways, I was wondering if you would be willing to expand on, maybe a new thread?  Or direct me to where i could read some more on this?