The thousand years

[Sister]

 

Hello again sister

 

I am unclear as to what you are saying in this segment, but it appears that you are insinuating that those born during the Millenium are ignorant of Christ? 

 

Hi Wingnut

 

No, more to the point there will be some that wont appreciate Christ.

 

 

Is it not required for all the nations to come up to worship Him at the Feast of Tabernacles every year or plagues come on them?

 

 

 

Yes it is required.

Zechariah 14:17   And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

 

We know there will be nations still existing.  It's obvious there will be leaders of those nations, so they must rule under Christ's law now, and obey what he instructs.   If a leader of a nation does not support Christ's authority, and govern according to the Word of the Lord, or attend important feasts and meetings, then obviously his people and his nation will be lacking, therefore they will receive no rain.  This is a warning to them.  No Christ, no blessings.

 

Zechariah 14:18   And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

This verse shows us also that there are still heathen about, despite all the truth being preached, men can still be stubborn, so we know they are there and that they exist.

[Sister]

 

...Millions and millions will be converted to Christ and will take part in the second resurrection.

The millennium was not a failure or a waste of time, but God's wonderful plan, perfectly orchestrated to produce more children for himself to raise in the 2nd resurrection in preparation to dwell in the new heavens and new earth.

 

 

 

Where is this second resurrection found in Revelation?  I only see the two mentioned below. 

Revelation 20:⁴ Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. ⁵ The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. ⁶ Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

According to what is written here, you have two resurrections in this time period.  One at the beginning of the millenium, and the other at the end.  Those in the first resurrection reign with Christ, those in the second do not come back to life until after the millenium.  This is in opposition to your theory.

 

 

 

How is it in opposition?

The first resurrection at the coming - just before the Millennium, and the second resurrection after the thousand years.  Not immediately after, because we have the Gog and Magog war to come when Satan is let loose.  How long this will take I don't know. It will take time for him to stir gossip and round up the armies.

 

The White throne judgement takes place after the attack on the camp of the saints. Gog and his armies are killed just outside the camp (kingdom area)

Then we have another seven years where they will be burning their weapons and burying the dead.

 

So the 2nd resurrection does not happen immediately after the 1000 years, but after all is fulfilled.

When all of this is fullfilled then the books will be opened and whoever is not written in the Lambs book of life will be destroyed.  Whoever is, will be resurrected.  This is the 2nd judgement and the 2nd resurrection all in one.

 

The 3 1/2 years is punishment on Israel and the world.  It is not their restoration time, but a time of war and oppression from a horrible dictator who hates them because they are connected to God from old times.

 

But God has revealed that he will punish first then give mercy, because they are his children and children need discipline and correction when they don't listen..not just them but us too.

 

Jeremiah 25:29   For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

 

 

I see this a bit differently from you, it appears to me that Israel has been suffering for quite some time.  That took place so that a way was made for all to know Him and be His children.  It appears to me that it culminates at the halfway point, which I see as the beginning of the great tribulation Jesus spoke of.  This is when Jerusalem is lost, this is when the temple is defiled, this is when those in Judea that are His are told to flee.  They all coincide and if you would like me to show you specific scriptures as to how I will happily oblige you.  The Jeremiah passage is specific about the timing, when He begins to bring evil on the city, it is handed over to the gentiles here.

 

 

Yes, there has not been true peace there for a while, but I have not been to Israel so I don't know if there's any suffering at the moment to speak from experience.  Maybe others can share.

I do know their close neighbours are suffering.  Left homeless and many killed.  I hear their screams.

 

I also know Israel is always on the alert for an attack, but for a such a small state, their military is very advanced and mighty.  If anyone attacked Israel right now, they would be looking death in the eye.  From what I've seen on documentaries, they seem very comfortable, and I don't see them suffering a great deal, only in the area of Christ.  Their children do not know him.  Are not encouraged but discouraged to stay away from that name.

 

Without Christ, we all suffer to varying degrees. 

I think it's the calm before the storm, and the scriptures testify that it is going to change there, but not until certain events happen first.

 

Yes if you want to present scriptures I would love to see them.

 

 

 

 

 

Revelation 11:² Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

 

Can you expand on this please.

[wingnut-]

 

How is it in opposition?

 

 

Hello sister,

 

It is in opposition in this regard.  Your theory is based on a resurrection of Jews from the past, to a restored natural life under which they must still come to learn and know Jesus.  The first resurrection mentioned by John is for believers, those who take part in that resurrection reign with Him as kings and priests during the millenium.  They do not reproduce, they no longer are in a natural body as they receive their glorified bodies at the resurrection.  The resurrection of the rest of the dead is after the millenium.

 

So what you have is a resurrection that doesn't appear in Revelation.

 

 

 

Revelation 11:² Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

 

Can you expand on this please.

 

 

 

Ok, this is part of the scripture I was referring to that to me clarifies the timing involved.  The verse tells us that for a 3 1/2 year period, Jerusalem will be given over to the gentiles who trample it under foot.  At the conclusion of this chapter, we are told that the second woe has passed, so we know that this precedes the 6th trumpet (2nd woe).  Also, it stands to reason that the first woe (5th trumpet) has already sounded.  So what happened at the fifth trumpet?

 

 

Revelation 9  Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. ² He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. ³ Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. ⁴ They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. ⁵ And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. ⁶ And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.

⁷ The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. ⁸ They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions. ⁹ They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle. ¹⁰ They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt men for five months. ¹¹ They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

¹² The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things.

 

 

This is also where we are shown that Satan is cast out of heaven, verse 11 identifies him as the "destroyer".  So what else happens after Satan is cast out of heaven?

 

 

Revelation 13  And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. ² And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. ³ I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; ⁴ they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” ⁵ There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. ⁶ And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

 

 

Here we get the same amount of time again, 3 1/2 years.  The two beasts now come about with authority for exactly the same amount of time that Jerusalem is given over to the gentiles, and the temple is desecrated.  The Jews will understand they missed something when the abomination that makes desolate occurs, because they know what Daniel recorded.  They will flee as instructed by the prophets, and according to Isaiah and confirmed by Hosea and John in Revelation, they will be taken aside by the Lord personally.  This is why war is waged against the saints, because the Jews (the woman) that are counted as the remnant are inaccessible to the dragon.  Again, for the exact same amount of time.

 

The other major issue with your theory is this.  Daniel.  490 years were promised to the Jews.  Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey exactly 483 years after the prophecy was given.  There are only seven years left on that promise.  You are trying to add a thousand years to that, which is more than twice the promised time.  I can add more scripture to support what I am saying if you are interested, God bless you.

[Retrobyter]

 

Shalom, wingnut- and George.

 

The Day of the Lord begins at the beginning of the Millennium. It ends at the end of the Millennium! Thus, the Day will begin with the Messiah’s Coming and His rescue of Israel and the defeat of her foes.

 

Regarding the sun and moon, there are different reasons for the sun and moon going dark. The first reason, which is disclosed in Jeremiah, is being obscured by THICK SMOKE!

 

Another reason is a normal eclipse. The problem with this reason is that it cannot do both; it can’t obscure the sun and the moon at the same time. A normal eclipse is either a solar eclipse (the moon obscuring the sun from the earth’s view) or a lunar eclipse (the earth’s shadow from the sun’s light obscuring the moon from the earth’s view). Lunar eclipses ALWAYS occur during a new moon. Solar eclipses ALWAYS occur during a full moon!

 

Another reason is a unique, abnormal eclipse. This potentially CAN obscure both the sun and the moon if they and the eclipsing agent (such as a close, passing asteroid or comet) are at just the right angles to our view of these bodies.

 

However, some of these passages are NOT talking about the darkening of the sun and the moon! Isaiah 24:23 is one such passage. Yesha`yahu was NOT saying that the sun and moon would go dark; he was saying that they would be mixed up and outdone! The passage uses the commonly poetic technique of anthropomorphism. Instead of saying that the moon would be “mixed up,” the text said it would be “abashed." Instead of saying that the sun would be “outdone,” the text said it would be “ashamed.” But, if we peel away the anthropomorphism, this passage is saying that the moon would be confused in its phases; no longer would it be a simple “new moon,” “first quarter,” “full moon,” and “last quarter.” Now there would be OTHER phases involved, depending on the moon’s angle to Jerusalem from where the glory of God will shine!

 

If you peel away the anthropomorphism about the sun being “ashamed,” the text is not saying that the sun will fade at all; it’s saying that while the sun goes on shining as usual, compared to the brightness of the Sun of Righteousness, the Son of God, it will simply be outdone. We see this also in Revelation 1:16 and Acts 22:6-8.

 

 

Shalom retrobyter,

 

I don't disagree with your argument because it is unreasonable, but more because of the other information provided in the text.  Such as the previous verses.

 

Isaiah 24:¹⁹ The earth is broken asunder,

The earth is split through,

The earth is shaken violently.

²⁰ The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard

And it totters like a shack,

For its transgression is heavy upon it,

And it will fall, never to rise again.

 

 

If the earth is to fall and never rise again in that day, then it must be talking about the end of the millenium, correct?

 

 

Not necessarily! Again, be CAREFUL when it comes to the usage of the Hebrew word “erets,” also written as “haa’aarets” when the definite article is added. While the word MAY apply to the whole earth in a few instances, the word’s MAIN meaning is “land!” Most of the time in Scripture, that refers to "THE Land (of Israel)!” If a passage SEEMS to be talking about the whole earth, broaden your view of the word’s context and BE SURE! Sometimes, it can refer to another country’s “land.” Sometimes, it can refer to any other country’s “land.” Even when the word DOES refer to the whole earth, it does so be referring to EVERY country’s “land!"

 

Here’s the CJB rendering:

 

Isaiah 24:1-23

24:1 Look! Adonai is stripping

and destroying the land,

turning it upside down

and scattering its inhabitants —  

2 cohen and commoner, slave and master,

maid and mistress, buyer and seller,

lender and borrower, creditor and debtor.

3 The land will be completely stripped,

completely plundered,

for Adonai has spoken this word.

4 The land fades and withers,

the world wilts and withers,

the exalted of the land languish.

5 The land lies defiled under its inhabitants;

because they have transgressed the teachings,

changed the law

and broken the everlasting covenant.

6 Therefore a curse is devouring the land,

and its inhabitants are punished for their guilt.

It is why those living there waste away,

and the people left are few.

7 The new wine fails, the vines wilt,

all the revelers sigh,

8 the happy sound of tambourines ceases,

the shouts of merrymakers are stilled,

the joy of the lyre ends.

9 They no longer sing as they drink their wine,

strong liquor tastes bitter to those drinking it.

10 The city of chaos is shattered,

every house closed up; no one can enter.

11 In the streets they are crying over the wine;

all joy has faded, cheer has left the land.

12 In the city, only desolation,

its gates are battered beyond repair. 

 

13 Around the earth, among the peoples,

it will be as when beating an olive tree,

as when gleaning the grapes at the end of the harvest.

14 They lift their voices, singing for joy,

shouting from the west to honor Adonai.

15 So in the east, honor Adonai;

in the coastlands, honor the name of Adonai,

the God of Isra’el.

16 From the farthest part of the earth

we have heard them sing,

“Glory to the Righteous One!”

 

But, I say, I’m wasting away,

I am wasting away!

Woe to me! Traitors betray!

Oh, how the traitors betray and betray!

17 Terror, pit and trap are upon you,

you who are living on earth.

18 He who flees at the sound of terror

will fall into the pit.

He who climbs up out of the pit

will be caught in the trap.

For the windows above have been opened,

and the earth’s foundations shake.

19 The earth cracks and breaks open,

the earth crumbles to pieces,

the earth trembles and totters.

20 The earth staggers to and fro like a drunk,

sways back and forth like a watchman’s shelter;

its transgression weighs heavy upon it;

it will fall and not rise again.

21 When that day comes, Adonai will punish

the armies of the high heaven on high,

and the kings of the earth here on earth.

22 They will be assembled like prisoners in a dungeon

and shut up in prison to be punished many years.

23 Then the moon will be confused and the sun ashamed,

for Adonai-Tzva’ot will rule on Mount Tziyon

and in Yerushalayim,

with his glory manifest to the rulers of his people. 

CJB

 

 

This is NOT such a “global event!” It’s a LOCAL event involving the Land of Israel and the surrounding nations! You DO know that Israel sits on a fault line, don’t you?

[Sister]

 

Hello sister,

 

It is in opposition in this regard.  Your theory is based on a resurrection of Jews from the past, to a restored natural life under which they must still come to learn and know Jesus.  The first resurrection mentioned by John is for believers, those who take part in that resurrection reign with Him as kings and priests during the millenium.  They do not reproduce, they no longer are in a natural body as they receive their glorified bodies at the resurrection.  The resurrection of the rest of the dead is after the millenium.

 

 

 

Hi Wingnut

 

Ok, now I see where you are coming from.

 

 In the first resurrection, the followers of Christ will be raised to spirit and changed.  They can never die again, because they have conquered death. They will be like our Lord and the angels, spirit.  Can live in two dimensions.  They can see God in their new spiritual bodies, travel like the angels, and they can also dwell in the kingdom as Christ's helpers and appear as flesh. 

 

The Jews coming back into the kingdom during the millennium from all generations is not a resurrection.  They can die again.  They are only "revived", brought back in the flesh.  It's not the same.

Jesus demonstrated how he brought Lazarus back to life after his body started to decompose.  Well this will be no different.  It doesn't matter that some of them have been dead for thousands of years, they will have their flesh put back on to their bones, and God will breathe into them that they may live again.  They are just brought back to life and will live in the flesh.  They will multiply and die again.

This is not too hard for God to do. 

 

Job 19:26   And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

 

So what you have is a resurrection that doesn't appear in Revelation.

 

 

Agreed, but it's not a resurrection and shouldn't be confused with it.  It's only explained in Ezekiel 37, and has been written off as being symbolic.  God is actually showing us how he is going to bring Israel back for the Millennium, but this new Israel who will bear God's name, is only according to God's choosing.  He will elect who he will bring back, so not every single one of them.  All those who he will elect will make up the whole house of Israel, from all tribes, not just Judah.  It will even go back to their bloodline before the tribes existed.  We will probably see Noah there, Job, etc.

They all will be brought back into God's rest.  They will learn Christ.  This is the whole purpose, and to spread that message out to the nations.

 

This is a mystery to most of us, and we've missed it because it seems too out there, and not normal.

But God is not normal, and capable of displaying his power with some pretty wonderful things we've yet to witness outside of normal.

 

So it's not a resurrection ok.  But in the millennium, those family's brought back from the grave (Israel and their ancestors and future offsprings) will make up the populations described in Rev (camp of the saints).  After the thousand years, they will take part in the 2nd resurrection, along with all those who came to Christ during the millennium.  They have their day of resurrection also, and will be rewarded for their faith and service.

 

It's not only the remnants of Israel that survive Armageddon that get this opportunity, but from all generations of Israel.  This is fair, so the ones who are asleep don't miss out.

 

This was revealed to me in the scriptures about 15 years ago, and how it all fits in, but sharing this has been hard and falls on deaf ears.

In the end it's only God that can reveal this in the scriptures to us.  I cannot reveal anything if it's not given to the receiver, ....however It's written in print and I urge everyone to look into it in depth, to add some more knowledge regarding the kingdom on earth that's coming, because this chapter is waiting to be solved (Ezekiel 37) and is a huge event,

and I am either a witness to this, or a deceiver.  Can only be one or the other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wingnut-]

Hello sister,

 

Any time you have a dead body being brought back to life, it is a resurrection.  That is the criteria behind the definition of the word.  When Jesus raised Lazarus, it was a resurrection.  It was not to a glorified body, but it was still a resurrection.  The biggest problem with your theory is the fact that John does not write about it, it is not in Revelation.

 

Plus, you are still not addressing the other major issue, Daniel's prophecy.  You can't simply add 1,000 years to the promise for them to recognize the Messiah when they were only promised 490 years.

[Sister]

Hello sister,

 

Any time you have a dead body being brought back to life, it is a resurrection.  That is the criteria behind the definition of the word.  When Jesus raised Lazarus, it was a resurrection.  It was not to a glorified body, but it was still a resurrection.  The biggest problem with your theory is the fact that John does not write about it, it is not in Revelation.

 

Plus, you are still not addressing the other major issue, Daniel's prophecy.  You can't simply add 1,000 years to the promise for them to recognize the Messiah when they were only promised 490 years.

 

Hi Wingnut

 

I have to disagree with you there, simply because it's not the same. 

Of all the dead that Jesus and the apostles raised, not once was it ever called a resurrection.  It was a bringing back to life, but they died again.  They were not raised immortal and there is a big difference. So please ponder through the scriptures brother.  It is not the same as the resurrection of the saints, and you will not find that word "resurrection" regarding any of those events in the scriptures.

We can't force a square peg into a round hole.

I spoke about this  in depth on one of the posts here some time ago, I'll have to find it.

 

I havn't forgot about your other question and cannot answer it in 5 minutes.  This is going to take some to address, and yesterday I simply did not have the energy for it.  I retired very early after a very busy day.  I'll get back to you later today on that one Wingnut and you should be able to see so clearly when Satan and his angels were thrown out of heaven.

[wingnut-]

 

Hi Wingnut

 

I have to disagree with you there, simply because it's not the same. 

Of all the dead that Jesus and the apostles raised, not once was it ever called a resurrection.  It was a bringing back to life, but they died again.  They were not raised immortal and there is a big difference. So please ponder through the scriptures brother.  It is not the same as the resurrection of the saints, and you will not find that word "resurrection" regarding any of those events in the scriptures.

We can't force a square peg into a round hole.

I spoke about this  in depth on one of the posts here some time ago, I'll have to find it.

 

I havn't forgot about your other question and cannot answer it in 5 minutes.  This is going to take some to address, and yesterday I simply did not have the energy for it.  I retired very early after a very busy day.  I'll get back to you later today on that one Wingnut and you should be able to see so clearly when Satan and his angels were thrown out of heaven.

 

 

 

Hello again sister,

 

We may have to disagree on this, but here is something else for you to consider.  The definition of resurrection according to Thorndike/Barnhart dictionary:

 

1.  The act or fact of coming to life again;  rising from the dead.

2.  The state of being alive again after death.

 

There are multiple places to read about people being resurrected.  Jairus's daughter;  Matthew 9:18-26;  Mark 5:21-43;  Luke 8:40-56.   The widow at Nain's son;  Luke 7:11-17.  Lazarus;  John 11:1-44.

 

In all three instances you have someone dead being brought back to life, and all are brought back to a natural life.  That is what you said happens with the Jews, correct?   I don't know how you can claim that is different.  At any rate, where is this event with Israel found in Revelation?  I'm in no hurry, respond when you get the time, God bless you.

[Sister]

 

 

Hi Wingnut

 

I have to disagree with you there, simply because it's not the same. 

Of all the dead that Jesus and the apostles raised, not once was it ever called a resurrection.  It was a bringing back to life, but they died again.  They were not raised immortal and there is a big difference. So please ponder through the scriptures brother.  It is not the same as the resurrection of the saints, and you will not find that word "resurrection" regarding any of those events in the scriptures.

We can't force a square peg into a round hole.

I spoke about this  in depth on one of the posts here some time ago, I'll have to find it.

 

I havn't forgot about your other question and cannot answer it in 5 minutes.  This is going to take some to address, and yesterday I simply did not have the energy for it.  I retired very early after a very busy day.  I'll get back to you later today on that one Wingnut and you should be able to see so clearly when Satan and his angels were thrown out of heaven.

 

 

 

Hello again sister,

 

We may have to disagree on this, but here is something else for you to consider.  The definition of resurrection according to Thorndike/Barnhart dictionary:

 

1.  The act or fact of coming to life again;  rising from the dead.

2.  The state of being alive again after death.

 

There are multiple places to read about people being resurrected.  Jairus's daughter;  Matthew 9:18-26;  Mark 5:21-43;  Luke 8:40-56.   The widow at Nain's son;  Luke 7:11-17.  Lazarus;  John 11:1-44.

 

In all three instances you have someone dead being brought back to life, and all are brought back to a natural life.  That is what you said happens with the Jews, correct?   I don't know how you can claim that is different.  At any rate, where is this event with Israel found in Revelation?  I'm in no hurry, respond when you get the time, God bless you.

 

Wingnut

 

Dear Brother, the dictionary definition is just generalising.  It doesnt go into specifics.

 

Lets see what Jesus said;

 

 

 

 Luke 20:35   But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

 Luke 20:36   Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

 

Romans 6:5   For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

 

 1 Corinthians 15:42   So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 

1.  Jesus confirms that those who have partaken in "the Resurrection from the dead"  cannot marry.  These are called "the children of the resurrection."

     The Israelites will be marrying because they will be producing children.

So please compare.

 

2.  Those in "the Resurrection from the dead" cannot die anymore. 

     The Israelites will live a ripe old age to a hundred, and they will die again.

So please compare.

 

3.  Jesus was raised in a Spiritual body.  He went to sit on the right hand side of his Father.  He has returned to heaven and we will have access to heaven also, because we had inherited everything that belongs to the Father at the Resurrection

     The Israelites are on the earth in the flesh, they will not be visiting heaven, but will be learning and worshiping here on earth.  They have not inherited all that belongs to the Father yet, ....but will  at the 2nd resurrection

So please compare.

 

4.  When we are raised in the "resurrection" we will be raised in "incorruption".  We will be raised spirit.  Perfect.

     The Israelites that will be "raised from the dead" will not be raised in incorruption, as they will get old again, and will die.  They will still be raised in "corruption" - Speaking of only their flesh of course.

 

Please compare all these scriptures, because this is how we discern them.  The Word gives us clarity.  I didn't make them up, I'm just showing you where it states.

[Sister]

Hi Wingnut

 

I'm trying to figure out exactly what you're saying?

 

Ok, you've given me

Revelation 11:² Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 

Ok, this is part of the scripture I was referring to that to me clarifies the timing involved.  The verse tells us that for a 3 1/2 year period, Jerusalem will be given over to the gentiles who trample it under foot.  At the conclusion of this chapter, we are told that the second woe has passed, so we know that this precedes the 6th trumpet (2nd woe).  Also, it stands to reason that the first woe (5th trumpet) has already sounded.  So what happened at the fifth trumpet?

 

 

Yes the timing is for 3 1/2 years, I agree.  Jerusalem will be invaded by the gentiles.

The whole tribulation period is for 3 1/2 years, on the saints and the whole world.

As soon as the Mark of the Beast is issued, start counting to the coming, we have 3 1/2 years. 

 

The False Prophet is going to take Jerusalem when he receives power at the beginning of his reign, this is when it starts ...the gentiles coming in.

The False Prophet only has 3 1/2 years to do his job.  Close to the end of the 3 1/2 years there's war, and all the armies of the world come in to Jerusalem to battle, so more gentiles coming in.

 

 

Revelation 9  Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. ² He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. ³ Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. ⁴ They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. ⁵ And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. ⁶ And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.

⁷ The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. ⁸ They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions. ⁹ They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle. ¹⁰ They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt men for five months. ¹¹ They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

¹² The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things.

 

 

 

 By the time we get to the 5th trumpet which is the first woe like you said, we are nearing the 2nd woe, which is the armies coming in.

 

This is also where we are shown that Satan is cast out of heaven, verse 11 identifies him as the "destroyer".  So what else happens after Satan is cast out of heaven?

 

 

 

 I can't see a verse 11 on what you are speaking about?

 

Revelation 13  And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. ² And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. ³ I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; ⁴ they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” ⁵ There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. ⁶ And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

 

 

Here we get the same amount of time again, 3 1/2 years.  The two beasts now come about with authority for exactly the same amount of time that Jerusalem is given over to the gentiles, and the temple is desecrated.  The Jews will understand they missed something when the abomination that makes desolate occurs, because they know what Daniel recorded.  They will flee as instructed by the prophets, and according to Isaiah and confirmed by Hosea and John in Revelation, they will be taken aside by the Lord personally.  This is why war is waged against the saints, because the Jews (the woman) that are counted as the remnant are inaccessible to the dragon.  Again, for the exact same amount of time.

 

 

Ok, I see where you are going.  I think?.. It's not another 3 1/2 years, it's in the same time frame.  Rev 13 is just introducing who this beast is which is going to be in charge during these days.

There is nothing concrete that I can see there that states this is when Jerusalem is going to be trodden over by the gentiles,...although I do agree with you by the way, we just can't use this bit here as proof, (unless I missed it)  I'm very tired today,  but other scriptures we can.

 

When this beast blasphemes God's name and his tabernacle, he is not blaspheming anything physical there, because the Jews don't have a true temple.  He's blaspheming the truth, and I guess you could say that holy place Jerusalem chosen from the beginning..

 

Now to clarify the abomination of desolation, it is not "set up" until the end of the 3 1/2 years.  Meaning it's completed, finished.

This abomination of desolation is the building of the new temple the false prophet builds for himself.  It takes years to build, and the day it's declared finished, just wait another 45 days, and the Lord will come.  So it's near the end of the trib.

 

Why Israel is fleeing is because when the "abomination of desolation" (this new temple is built which is not of God), is declared finished, it stirs up the kings of the Medes.  They march in to Israel with all their allies.  The False prophet has his allies also, and together this makes up all the kings of the earth coming in there.

Israel has all these warmongers there now.  They will be in a panic.  They will be running to the left, to the right, or hiding in absolute fear of their lives.  They are in the middle of a battleground now.

 

Matthew 24:16   Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17   Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18   Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

 

If they are in Judaea (flee), the armies are coming.

If they are unable to flee, stay put.

It you're not near your house, don't return to get anything.

 

In other words CHAOS.  The armies are coming, watch out. Stay out of view.

 

The war has already been waged against the saints.  They are already persecuted, at the beginning of the tribulation.

The Israelites who will not be killed but are still going through tribulation.  They are not all protected.  Many will be caught in the line of the crossfire. seven thousand will die.

The remnants chosen will be protected however, not from tribulation, but they will not be killed in this war, their lives will be spared and Christ will come to stop this war,  to rescue his elect (his chosen ones to inhabit the kingdom)

They will still be war torn.  Will suffer loss. They will be hungry, tired, hurt, in so much grief.   They still don't know about Christ, but they call out to God.

It is going to be such a terrible sad time.  Horrific for everyone, especially over there, if they are not in Christ before the tribulation starts.

 

I'm sorry if I am reading you wrong, I agree with most of what you say, and see you have been busy studying.  Good job brother.  There's just a few things.

 

I want to talk about the woman next who is not Israel.  The dragon has had a dandy time with Israel, and these times in Israel at the end of trib. is not that same 3 1/2 year time that is spoken of in Rev 12.  That was "after" the child was caught up to God, when the doctrine of God was being preserved from the devil. Two separate 3 1/2 yrs and not connected.

 

the other major issue with your theory is this.  Daniel.  490 years were promised to the Jews.  Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey exactly 483 years after the prophecy was given.  There are only seven years left on that promise.  You are trying to add a thousand years to that, which is more than twice the promised time.  I can add more scripture to support what I am saying if you are interested, God bless you.

 

 

Talk about this later.  Better to take it slow, one thing at a time.   I am getting lost on what we are talking about now and where we are heading!  Just too much in one go, but I like your spirit that demands answers.  This is how we should all be.

So please one question at a time, so my reply is not too long and I can give scriptures with it.

God bless you too.