I think I found rapture verses

[joylynn]

We must not try to force our meanings on Scripture, no matter how much we desire something to be true. So many have set their hearts on something that the Bible does not teach, but is an invention of man. There is much to "unlearn" that we have been taught over the years. Trust in the Lord. He can, and will, lead you through the coming times. It is a time like no other to keep our eyes upon Him.

[wingnut-]

 

Our Lord Jesus gave us the meaning to that idea of being 'taken' at the end of Luke 17:37, and it certainly is not... in the positive sense, but instead is a warning. There is nothing about being joined with Him to fight the battle of Armageddon on the last day in those Scriptures. You cannot just add that there, especially in the Matt.24:28 example which He gave in connection with that false christ He warned of us there.

 

At no... time, ever... in God's Word, is any faithful believer on Him associated with being a dead "carcase". We who believe on Jesus Christ instead have His Promise of Eternal Life.

 

The being 'taken' idea is about being gathered to the 'wrong'... Christ, the one Apostle Paul warned us about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and that our Lord Jesus warned us again about in Revelation 13, for all three of those examples are about the coming Antichrist that will work great signs and wonders on earth to try and deceive His elect with.

 

The meaning is obvious. It's about those who refuse His warning about the that coming pseudochristos of Matt.24:23-26 that IF... you fall into worshiping instead of waiting on Jesus to return, you will be like a dead "carcase". That idea of being spiritually 'dead' is a Bible teaching that our Lord Jesus covered, as did Apostle Paul in his Epistles. It actually originates from the OT prophets, which apparenlty, you have not read enough of to know that. Please go check it out (use a Strong's Concordance, it's easy).

 

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I guess my main question here is this, what in that passage states that those taken are the carcasses?  And, what about the ones who were left, why are they left?  Let me just walk you through why I see it the way I do, and then you can tell me where this is wrong.

 

First we start with the 6th bowl/vial, where we see Satan, the antichrist, and the false prophet together, sending out the spirits to gather the kings for battle.  All three of them are together at this time, in verse 15 we see Jesus' proclamation that this is when the rapture takes place, using the sign of the thief that He gave us in Matthew 24, which is also the illustration of one being taken, and one being left.  The same illustration provided by Luke in regards to one being taken and one being left.

 

Revelation 16:¹² The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. ¹³ Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ¹⁴ They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

Then we look at what occurs in the battle depicted in Revelation 19.

 

Revelation 19:¹¹ I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.

 

Revelation 19:¹⁴ The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

Those taken are part of the armies from heaven following Him into this battle.  The key is what they are dressed in, fine linen, white and clean.  Following the battle further, we see this.

 

Revelation 19:¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

 

The carcasses are those of the enemy, and the birds of the air will gorge themselves on their flesh.  The beast and the false prophet are destroyed here, so where is Satan?

 

Revelation 20  And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. ² He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

 

Satan is bound at the beginning of the battle with the rider on the white horse.  The three of them were together going into this, only the beast and false prophet are destroyed at this battle.  This is not Armageddon, Armageddon comes after Satan is unbound and gathers the remaining enemies of God which we saw in verse 16 of chapter 16.  The reason verse 16 says they gathered the kings together, is because they is speaking of Satan and God, which is shown by the prophet Zechariah in chapter 14 and by John in Revelation 20.

 

Zechariah 14  A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

² I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

 

Revelation 20:⁷ When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison ⁸ and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. ⁹ They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. ¹⁰ And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

This is the battle where Satan is destroyed, and in verse 10 it specifies that the beast and false prophet were already thrown into the lake of fire prior to this.  The problem I see with what you present is that you have the Lord taking people and placing them at the first battle to become carcasses, but the Lord doesn't participate in gathering the wicked until the final battle.  Then there is the question I have in regards to those who were left in your scenario, what becomes of them?  Who are they?

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

[Salty]

The Church did not form until after the Resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the Disciples. You believe what you want. But, I have rebutted your "teachings" with scripture and it is up to the reader to discern who is correct. I won't debate with you any longer as you clearly don't even know when the Church came into being.

 

1 Cor.12

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

 

Acts 7

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear .

38 This is He , That was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

 

1 Cor.10

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them : and that Rock was Christ.

 

 

You've yet to understand many things that Apostle Paul well understood.

 

Eph.2

¹⁹ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

²⁰ And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

 

So no, I don't have time to debate with you just what all Christ's Church is founded upon and includes, especially about those first who believed on Christ Jesus before His death and resurrection and also after His death and resurrection.

[Salty]

 

 

Our Lord Jesus gave us the meaning to that idea of being 'taken' at the end of Luke 17:37, and it certainly is not... in the positive sense, but instead is a warning. There is nothing about being joined with Him to fight the battle of Armageddon on the last day in those Scriptures. You cannot just add that there, especially in the Matt.24:28 example which He gave in connection with that false christ He warned of us there.

 

At no... time, ever... in God's Word, is any faithful believer on Him associated with being a dead "carcase". We who believe on Jesus Christ instead have His Promise of Eternal Life.

 

The being 'taken' idea is about being gathered to the 'wrong'... Christ, the one Apostle Paul warned us about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and that our Lord Jesus warned us again about in Revelation 13, for all three of those examples are about the coming Antichrist that will work great signs and wonders on earth to try and deceive His elect with.

 

The meaning is obvious. It's about those who refuse His warning about the that coming pseudochristos of Matt.24:23-26 that IF... you fall into worshiping instead of waiting on Jesus to return, you will be like a dead "carcase". That idea of being spiritually 'dead' is a Bible teaching that our Lord Jesus covered, as did Apostle Paul in his Epistles. It actually originates from the OT prophets, which apparenlty, you have not read enough of to know that. Please go check it out (use a Strong's Concordance, it's easy).

 

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I guess my main question here is this, what in that passage states that those taken are the carcasses?  And, what about the ones who were left, why are they left?  Let me just walk you through why I see it the way I do, and then you can tell me where this is wrong.

 

First we start with the 6th bowl/vial, where we see Satan, the antichrist, and the false prophet together, sending out the spirits to gather the kings for battle.  All three of them are together at this time, in verse 15 we see Jesus' proclamation that this is when the rapture takes place, using the sign of the thief that He gave us in Matthew 24, which is also the illustration of one being taken, and one being left.  The same illustration provided by Luke in regards to one being taken and one being left.

 

Revelation 16:¹² The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. ¹³ Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ¹⁴ They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

Then we look at what occurs in the battle depicted in Revelation 19.

 

Revelation 19:¹¹ I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.

 

Revelation 19:¹⁴ The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

Those taken are part of the armies from heaven following Him into this battle.  The key is what they are dressed in, fine linen, white and clean.  Following the battle further, we see this.

 

Revelation 19:¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

 

The carcasses are those of the enemy, and the birds of the air will gorge themselves on their flesh.  The beast and the false prophet are destroyed here, so where is Satan?

 

Revelation 20  And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. ² He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

 

Satan is bound at the beginning of the battle with the rider on the white horse.  The three of them were together going into this, only the beast and false prophet are destroyed at this battle.  This is not Armageddon, Armageddon comes after Satan is unbound and gathers the remaining enemies of God which we saw in verse 16 of chapter 16.  The reason verse 16 says they gathered the kings together, is because they is speaking of Satan and God, which is shown by the prophet Zechariah in chapter 14 and by John in Revelation 20.

 

Zechariah 14  A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

² I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

 

Revelation 20:⁷ When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison ⁸ and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. ⁹ They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. ¹⁰ And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

This is the battle where Satan is destroyed, and in verse 10 it specifies that the beast and false prophet were already thrown into the lake of fire prior to this.  The problem I see with what you present is that you have the Lord taking people and placing them at the first battle to become carcasses, but the Lord doesn't participate in gathering the wicked until the final battle.  Then there is the question I have in regards to those who were left in your scenario, what becomes of them?  Who are they?

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

 

 

It's simple, all one need do is read our Lord Jesus' answer to His disciple's question of "Where, Lord" in that final Luke 17:37 verse. That was His explanation and answer to them about 'where' the first ones 'taken' would be taken to. And since Matt.24:28 parallel reveals beyond any doubt the body in Luke 17:37 actually points to a dead 'carcase', it should be fairly easy to understand. And that in conjunction with the Matt.24:23-26 verses of His warning about the coming pseudo-Christ (Greek pseudochristos in Matt.24:24 translated as "false Christs").

[missmuffet]

 

 

 

Thought second coming was judgement.

It is and occurs after the last 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. But it is not the final judgement. It is the sheep and goat judgment at the beginning of the Millenium.

 

A lot of people get the sheep and goat judgment confused.

 

Especially those who do not subscribe to a pre-Trib Rapture.

 

Yes 

[wingnut-]

 

It's simple, all one need do is read our Lord Jesus' answer to His disciple's question of "Where, Lord" in that final Luke 17:37 verse. That was His explanation and answer to them about 'where' the first ones 'taken' would be taken to. And since Matt.24:28 parallel reveals beyond any doubt the body in Luke 17:37 actually points to a dead 'carcase', it should be fairly easy to understand. And that in conjunction with the Matt.24:23-26 verses of His warning about the coming pseudo-Christ (Greek pseudochristos in Matt.24:24 translated as "false Christs").

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

The answer as to where does not specify that those taken are the carcasses, only that this is where they will be.  And what happens to the ones who are left?  Who are they? 

[wingnut-]

 

 

 

 

Thought second coming was judgement.

It is and occurs after the last 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. But it is not the final judgement. It is the sheep and goat judgment at the beginning of the Millenium.

 

A lot of people get the sheep and goat judgment confused.

 

Especially those who do not subscribe to a pre-Trib Rapture.

 

Yes 

 

 

Hello bopeep,

 

I am curious how when we read this, it can be taken as anything other than the great white throne judgement.

 

Matthew 25:³¹ “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. ³² All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. ³³ He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

³⁴ “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

 

Matthew 25:⁴¹ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

 

Matthew 25:⁴⁶ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

 

In the above passage, it specifies that all the nations are gathered, this means everyone.  The only confusion is in trying to separate two things that cannot be separated.  There is only one such occurrence in the book of Revelation.

 

 

Revelation 20:¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ¹⁵ Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

 

If there were two different judgements, John would have written about two different judgements.  Jesus also specified in Matthew 25 that the sheep would now take their inheritance, the kingdom prepared for us since the beginning.  That is the same kingdom He told us He was going to prepare for us, so that where He was, we would also be.  That kingdom is the New Jerusalem, as is further clarified in chapter 21 of Revelation.

 

 

Revelation 21:⁶ He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. ⁷ Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. ⁸ But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

[Salty]

 

 

It's simple, all one need do is read our Lord Jesus' answer to His disciple's question of "Where, Lord" in that final Luke 17:37 verse. That was His explanation and answer to them about 'where' the first ones 'taken' would be taken to. And since Matt.24:28 parallel reveals beyond any doubt the body in Luke 17:37 actually points to a dead 'carcase', it should be fairly easy to understand. And that in conjunction with the Matt.24:23-26 verses of His warning about the coming pseudo-Christ (Greek pseudochristos in Matt.24:24 translated as "false Christs").

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

The answer as to where does not specify that those taken are the carcasses, only that this is where they will be.  And what happens to the ones who are left?  Who are they? 

 

 

Well, His answer actually does... specific those first ones 'taken' as being like dead carcases.

 

The idea is simple, the "eagles" represent birds of prey in His allegory. Wheresoever the dead carcase is, that's where the birds of prey will be gathered. The only difference between the Matt.24:28 version and Luke 17:37 version is that Matt.24:28 literally uses the Greek for a dead 'carcase', corpse.

 

It's actually a perfect metaphor for how the events of the end of this world just prior to His coming are going play out, because many are going to wrongly bow in false worship to the coming Antichrist, thinking he is The Christ-Messiah.

 

If you look further into Luke 21, you'll begin to see the parallels to those in Judea told to flee to the mountains, if you're on the housetop, don't come down to take anything out of the house, etc. In that parallel of Luke 21, He is showing us what specific timing that is, i.e., the immediate coming of the Day of The Lord:

 

 

Luke 21

²⁰ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

²¹ Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

²² For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

²³ But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

²⁴ And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

²⁵ And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

²⁶ Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

²⁷ And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

²⁸ And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

 

The event of those armies (out of the northern quarters per Ezekiel 38-39) coming upon Jerusalem is Armageddon timing. That "day of vengenace" is the time of God's cup of wrath poured out upon them. That's Day of The Lord timing. That "desolation" is from God's cup of wrath on that day destroying those armies.

[Salty]

^{Luke 21}

²² For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

²³ But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

 

There's another important metaphor our Lord Jesus gave there, in blue bold, about great wrath upon those who are with child, and that give suck in those days.

 

Much of our Lord's teaching was with parable, allegory, metaphoric, symbolic, etc. Look into your heart and ask yourself, would God impart great wrath upon women in those days just prior to Christ's coming simply because they are literally pregant??? And that "days of vengeance" is about the timing of God's cup of wrath getting ready to be poured out upon the wicked on earth, so don't confuse the timing our Lord Jesus gave us there.

 

In the Books of the OT prophets (especially Isaiah), that "with child" was an often used metaphor for God's people having erred. Our Lord Jesus compared the events of the end being like a woman in labor, getting ready to give birth, which with a literal labor by woman the birth pangs keep happening closer and closer in timing, and getting stronger each time.

 

Per Isaiah 54, this "woe unto them that are with child" metaphor is applied a specific way about events for the tribulation.

 

Luke 23

27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said , "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold , the days are coming , in the which they shall say , 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare , and the paps which never gave suck .'

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us'."

 

God's cup of wrath will be upon those on earth who fall to worship the pseudo-Christ (Antichrist) in place of Christ Jesus. In the Luke 23 example it's about those in Jerusalem who fall away to doing that, and when He appears they feel shame.

 

The metaphor of being with child in the spiritual sense, is with the metaphors He and His Apostles used about being espoused to one Husband, Christ Jesus (2 Cor.11). Those who believe on Jesus Christ are not literally married to Him, but our relationship with Him and The Father is associated with us like that. So it's like our espoused Husband goes away for a while, and when He returns He finds we've played the harlot, and found with child from another. And being found with child from another in that spiritual sense means falling away to worship the coming pseudo-Christ/false messiah instead. This is why those deceived there in Luke 23 will be saying when He returns about the faithful, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare...". It means His faithful refused to worship the coming false messiah, and thus no spiritual marriage took place. The faithful remained as chaste virgins waiting on Christ Jesus.

[wingnut-]

Hello again Salty,

 

I think you lose me on this when you indicate that the Jews will still be in Jerusalem.  They won't, per the prophets and also John in Revelation 12.  The remnant spoken of by the prophets flee Jerusalem at the beginning of the great tribulation.  This also coincides with Jerusalem being given over to the Gentiles for 42 months per Revelation 11:2.  They will flee to the wilderness as prophesied, so Jerusalem for the final 3 1/2 years is not where the Jewish remnant will be found.

 

Israel will not successfully defend Jerusalem, they are going to lose the city and their country and go into hiding.  People seem to think Israel will achieve some great victory during the end times, but everyone is in for a big surprise when they are overran.