gray wolf Posted January 24, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,046 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 194 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/30/1960 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 Yes, I always remember that when I point my finger, three others are pointing back at me. I am not giving up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 733 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,017 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/01/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/09/1966 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I have been a believer for about 37 years and I've come to a realization that church is not where you find true friendship. Everyone enjoys getting together to worship, and so do I, but no one is interested in say, getting together for lunch now and then. And when personal crises arise, church family is not the place to find support...... I don't know if anyone else feels the same way or has had a similar experience, but I think this is a sad state of affairs. I agree with you. This is something that I've wept over many, many times. Today, in fact. It's the thing I struggle with the most because I crave true Christian fellowship so deeply that I feel it physically. I've done everything I know to develop relationships with people in the church. I've shown up early to enjoy coffee and fellowship. I've stayed until I was the last person to leave after services. I've even sat through both services. I've joined bible studies, community involvement groups, prayer teams, and even social groups intended for fellowship and relationship building. They're fine if you want short, superficial, non-personal, shallow chats about sports, work, entertainment and every other worldly pursuit. Everyone wears masks. But, talk about Jesus, the sermon, what the Holy Spirit is doing in each other, and you're met with silence or the pat, "Yeah, service was great..." Conversation over. After service, people spend a polite five minutes wearing their masks and feigning to be doing well and asking their "how are you's" before rushing out the door to get home for the game or go out to eat or some activity. Went to church. Check that off my duty list. I've been the initiator of conversations and trying to get to know people. I've also tried patience and letting others come to me. I've spoken to pastors and elders about it. All that happens is people's walls go up and the responsibility for that portion of "church" falls to someone else in charge of it. I've laid aside my own desires and feelings and really reached out to others, sincerely being interested in their lives and making myself available to them and being there to help with their needs. (Nothing pushy or intrusive. Keep in mind, I've tried all of these things I'm listing many times over many, many years.) I'm either met with suspicion, or people only interested in what they could get out of it and then move on. "Busy" is the secret word to get out of everything. I've sincerely wept over this for years. It's an epidemic in the west. It's unscriptural. The western church looks precious little like true churches in scripture. its a common complaint, but the problem most people see is that their part of the problem. Im not pointing fingers here-but everyone expects everyone else to help them, and Im as guilty of this as the next guy-we go to church expecting people to help me, expecting my needs to get fulfilled. Problem with this, is the word me, me, me. If everyone follows this mindset, then no ones needs get fulfilled, ever. We need to instead, go to church with the exact opposite-to put me on the back burner, put them first. Is someone else in crisis? can I help them? do they need listened to? what can I do to help them? without any expectation of anything in return. If we don't do this, the church will never change. I quoted your post to agree with you wholeheartedly. This is definitely a huge part of the problem. It's become "natural" for people to seek what they can get out of something in order to assess the value of it for them. But that's not "natural" for biblical Christians who are focused on Jesus and have an active, steady relationship with Him. Many people who attend church are just as self-absorbed, self-entitled, and entertainment-driven as unbelievers. Going to church, in part, to have your fellowship needs with true believers is not being part of the problem. It's scriptural, not selfish. First and foremost, going to church is to meet with, worship, hear from, and glorify God as His body - a family of like-minded individuals. That, in itself implies close fellowship with those worshiping around you. The problem is that the church is full of self-professing Christians who don't know Christ at all and live lives of compromise. Matthew 7:21-23 is proof of this. The scriptures are chock full of warnings and reminders that, while many are called, few are chosen. The narrow way is sparsely populated. Few make it. Many church attenders are indistinguishable from people in the world. They have no desire to get involved and they're too busy to get to know others. Most of them (yes, most) are so focused on their own lives and problems that feel justified in not getting involved with others. This is even the case with many true believers. I can say that confidently because, if it weren't true, the church would be effective and causing the world to sit up and take notice, wondering what Christians have that makes them so loving and powerful in the lives of others. The church is silent where it shouldn't be. It's inactive where it should be bold. It's powerless when it should be powerful. It's self-absorbed when it should be reaching out. It's become worldly when it should be set apart and holy. It's become a business (and a duty) when it should be focused on Jesus and making disciples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray wolf Posted January 26, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,046 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 194 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/30/1960 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 Very good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another_poster Posted January 27, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 129 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 27, 2015 Well when my life fell apart a few years ago I found the opposite to be true. Yes there was one person who didn't seem very helpful but hey nobodys perfect! At the church I was attending people sat with me, took me out for a meal and helped with cleaning the house in preparation for me moving. A couple who I used to go to church with about five years earlier found out I was doing it tough and also met up with me on a regular basis. They invited me over for dinner and had a birthday cake for me. When they found out I had moved into pub accomodation to make cleaning the house easier they straight away picked me up and gave me a place to sleep at their house. They cooked my meals, drove me places as well as taking my dad & son to the airport and then a couple of weeks later took me to the coach terminal. They did not ask for money and I did not offer any. My dad offered money for petrol when we were taken to the airport (against my advice) and sure enough it was refused. They did not grumble that their whole family got sick because I had was sick. They made absolutely no judgement when I almost took my life. When I had moved interstate the church I went to which I did not realise was around the corner from where I lived gave me brand new clothes with no obligation to even attend the church. It was only as I was walking out I mentioned I would be looking for a church in the area and they told me I was more than welcome. My decision to join the church was because my first sunday there a complete stranger gave me a hug when I really needed it. The bible study group I attend even though I had never met them before were more than happy to give my son a place to sleep during meeting. Now my parents look after him those nights. When they had a guys day out which included go karting the group paid for me so I would not miss out due to financial circumstances. I could go on but there are good people around. I It is great that you have realised this is human failing and have not given up on God like some do in this kind of situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another_poster Posted January 27, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 129 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 27, 2015 I agree with you both. I'm 42 yrs old, and have been knowing Jesus since I was 13. But when I needed help due to some assaults on me and my children... I turned to me "friends" at church, and I was turned away and told that I "needed professional help." I do not currently attend a church and haven't had a home church for a few years. I attend very occasionally. I do love to attend a good home Bible study, and that's what I prefer... What they should have done is given you support and helped you access that professional support. I agree that professional support is what is required in that situation but of course that does not mean a friend can't help and be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinM Posted January 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted January 27, 2015 It isn't the Church, its our culture, we don't value traditions, long term friendships/relationships, symbols, or gestures of gratitude, respect, and hospitality like other cultures do. We are Western and value our time more than our relationships with people. It's just the way of the West. The New York mindset of all business all the time has displaced our entire culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 733 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,017 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/01/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/09/1966 Share Posted January 27, 2015 It isn't the Church, its our culture, we don't value traditions, long term friendships/relationships, symbols, or gestures of gratitude, respect, and hospitality like other cultures do. We are Western and value our time more than our relationships with people. It's just the way of the West. The New York mindset of all business all the time has displaced our entire culture. What you're saying is true... and that's the problem, because the culture HAS permeated the church and become just like the culture. The church doesn't stand out because they're no different than the culture around them. They've adopted and embraced it, attempting to use it to "grow" their member numbers and financial giving. Church is now a business and attending is now a duty for "good people." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray wolf Posted January 27, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,046 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 194 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/30/1960 Author Share Posted January 27, 2015 I have to agree here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted July 24, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I have been a believer for about 37 years and I've come to a realization that church is not where you find true friendship. Everyone enjoys getting together to worship, and so do I, but no one is interested in say, getting together for lunch now and then. And when personal crises arise, church family is not the place to find support. I have from time to time tried to reestablish relationships with fellow believers that I've known in the past, but they couldn't care less. When I stopped going to church in two instances due to discouragement, not even the pastors followed up with me. I recently saw the movie God's Not Dead and it hit the nail on the head without really meaning to. When the Muslim girl was thrown out of the house by her father, she turned to a pastor for help. As she sat in his office, obviously hurting, the only thing he offered was a weak smile and some pious advice. He did not ask her where she was going to go, what she would do, even if she had a place to stay. Oh yes, his assistant hugged the girl and offered her superficial encouragement. I will continue to attend church to worship God, but I see it as a social club and generally feel- good preaching, not a place to turn when I am looking for true fellowship or hurting. I have cultivated relationships with non evangelical people and nonbelievers and value my family more than ever. And of course most importantly, with Christ my King. I don't know if anyone else feels the same way or has had a similar experience, but I think this is a sad state of affairs. A good church that functions as God intends it to function is a wonderful source of friendship and safety and security for the believer and is NOT a Christian social club. The real sad thing is that today we have far too many weak churches that teach an insipid message and do not allow Jesus to be their leader. It's up to you and to me to turn that situation around if we see it. Change starts with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted July 24, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 24, 2015 It isn't the Church, its our culture, we don't value traditions, long term friendships/relationships, symbols, or gestures of gratitude, respect, and hospitality like other cultures do. We are Western and value our time more than our relationships with people. It's just the way of the West. The New York mindset of all business all the time has displaced our entire culture. Maybe so. But the whole point of being a Christian is rejecting the ways of the world (culture) and followiing the ways of the Lord. Genuine friendship means commitment to the point where a friend in need is a friend indeed. It also means getting to know each other intimately, which takes time, but even more, commitment. Those commitments are extremely rare. Christians can talk all they want to about how they love the Lord, but the Lord has said through His Word, prove it by loving your brother (1 Jn 3:16-18). Indeed, God says LAY DOWN YOUR LIFE FOR YOUR BROTHER. Any volunteers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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