Rev. 7's great multitude before the throne

[Sister]

 

 

READ THE VERSE: it says "the mystery of God is finished, as he declared [lit. evangelized] to his servants the prophets." PERIOD. You are adding to the Word when you say "It is done" -- not in there. You keep adding meanings to the verses to justify your conclusions.

 

William

 

 Revelation 16:17   And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

now compare:

 

 Revelation 10:7   But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

Hope you can clearly see now I have not added anything to the Word, but simply quoted the Word..... "It is done".

 

There is nothing in this verse about Babylon, or whether or not other angels come after the 7th Trumpet.

 

 

Revelation 11:15   And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

I already pointed out this verse, but you did not see the connection.  This is the end of Babylon.  Can you see that this is the same angel that sounds the trumpet?  You cannot sound a vial, but a trumpet makes a noise.  Would you agree?

Regarding your continual unsubstantiated claim that there are only seven angels total, who blow the 7 trumpets while simultaneously pouring out the bowls (or 1st trumpet-then-1st bowl, 2nd trumpet-then-2nd bowl, as Last Daze says) -- let's go to the relevant scriptures:

 

Rev. 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

10:1 And I saw another mighty angel...

14:6 Then I saw another angel flying... 8 and another angel followed, saying... 9 then a third angel followed them... 15 and another angel came out of the sanctuary... 18 and another angel came out from the altar...

15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels [not, the seven angels] having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. ...6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands.

 

Now, there is nothing here whatsoever to show that these seven plague angels have any relationship to any of the previously mentioned angels, nor that they pour their bowls out simultaneously with the trumpets.

 

 

To me, everything suggests they are the same angels, because by the 7th angel, "it is finished" regarding the trumpets, and "it is done" regarding the vials.

[Sister]

William

 

Secondly, you have never replied to this problem with your theory that I posed to you in post #52:

 

 

 

Another problem with the theory that the Trumpets and Bowls are concurrent is the distinction between the 1st Bowl and the 5th Seal:

 

Rev. 16:2 And the first [angel] went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

 

At this time, the Kingdom of the Beast has clearly been established for some time. When does the Beast arise?

 

Rev. 11:7 ...the Beast...ascends out of the Abyss...

Rev. 17:8 The Beast...will ascend out of the Abyss...

Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the Abyss...

 

The Abyss is locked up until the 5th Trumpet is blown: the Beast cannot arise from it before then. Therefore, the 1st Bowl must take place after the 5th Trumpet is blown.

 

The beast comes up before the 5th seal (persecution of the saints). 

To be exact, the beast emerges on the 4th seal (pale horse), as the beast has to be there to enact it's laws before persecutions begin.

 

The abyss that you are referring to on the 5th trumpet is not where the false prophet or 10 kings emerge from, but refers to evil spirits that have been locked up there (bound) since the days of Genesis. 

The beast who persecutes the saints, is already in power before the first angel with the trumpet blows, which is the same as the angel with the vial.

 

Revelation 16:2   And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

 

Persecutions first, then the 7 angels start. This is the vengeance of the Lord now on Babylon for all the blood they have shed on the innocent.  This is the cup they will drink now, which the 7 angels will deliver.

 

 

William,

 

Please, before you get too harsh with your words, lets reason, I am not your enemy ok.  We are on the same side.

Let the holy spirit show you how God reveals these things to us who are hungry for truth.

You are reading the bible like a text book.  The truth is hidden, but not if we are looking for it.

For example, Matthew, Mark and Luke all speak of the same event.  They were eye witnesses, but their stories slightly differ from each other.

The one thing we can prove is that they all were there at the scene.  In court, if witnesses give the exact same account then the judge and jury will find them suspicious of concocting their story.

The first thing that has to be established is that they were there at the scene.  Once this is established, all their accounts are taken, as different people experience and notice different things.

Joe Blogs noticed the man in the white shirt, while Tommy did not see that man from his angle, but saw a man in a red shirt.  Billy saw both men, and Sally did not see either of them.

 

John is given a vision of the scene. Now only one man here.

He is given a vision from a certain angle, he sees it only a certain way,

then he is given another vision from a different angle.

The vision is of the same event.

Just because the first vision didn't show something particular, doesn't mean it didn't happen,...because he wasn't shown yet,

but when he's shown from the other angle, he gets to put the clues together, and sees the whole picture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

 

 Revelation 10:7   But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

Revelation 11:15   And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

To me, everything suggests they are the same angels, because by the 7th angel, "it is finished" regarding the trumpets, and "it is done" regarding the vials.

 

 

So true.  People seem to forget that in Revelation chapter 5 we started off with a scroll sealed with seven seals.  When the events associated with the opening of the seven seals run their course...it's finished.  There's nothing beyond the seventh seal's seventh trumpet.  Everything beyond Revelation 11 is used to add detail to the seven seals.  The bowls modify the trumpets of the seventh seal.

[WilliamL]

 

READ THE VERSE: it says "the mystery of God is finished, as he declared [lit. evangelized] to his servants the prophets." PERIOD. You are adding to the Word when you say "It is done" -- not in there. You keep adding meanings to the verses to justify your conclusions.

 

To me, everything suggests they are the same angels, because by the 7th angel, "it is finished" regarding the trumpets, and "it is done" regarding the vials.

 

There you go again, changing the Word. The Word never says "it is finished": it says what it says in the quote above. What you keep doing is working backward from your conclusions, rather than building upon what the Word actually says.

 

In your second post, you say:

 

The beast comes up before the 5th seal (persecution of the saints). 

To be exact, the beast emerges on the 4th seal (pale horse), as the beast has to be there to enact it's laws before persecutions begin.

 

The beast has to be there?? Again, you provide no justification from the Word for these statements, but  you presume them to be true because you are working backwards from your belief, rather than forward from a foundation built upon the Word.

 

In contrast, everything I have written about pre-wrath = post-trib has been built upon the testimony of at least two or three direct witnesses.

 

Now, you are no means the only one who interprets scripture this way; it is in fact by far the most common way people promote their various eschatologies. They become convinced of a theory, look for every way possible they can find to justify it (however illogical some of their arguments might be), and likewise look for every possible way to attack others' beliefs opposed to their own.  However, the only way people can be truly honest with themselves and others is to be utterly ruthless with their beliefs, and look for every way possible scriptural justification to destroy them. How many people truly take this approach? Precious few.

 

For the record, it took me 30 years of constant study (because eschatology was my primary calling within the ministry of the Word, which has been my profession since 1975), to come to the understanding I teach. During that 30 years, I studied and tested and trash-canned one theory after another (including yours), and kept only the individual building blocks of truth that could be fully substantiated by scripture and history. The final key that showed me why pre-wrath = post trib came from Messianic Jews who have studied their ancient faith's teachings: information that is unknown to the Gentile Church. And that key teaching is that the Jews already had a doctrine of the Last Trumpet that Paul taught, and it has nothing to do with the 7 Trumpets of Revelation.

[Sister]

William

 

You have more to protect than I do.  God does not require us to study within an institution, but with a pure heart. God is no respecter of persons, therefore you should not use this as a defense, for the holy spirit is our teacher, and God chose the simple of this world.

 

 

Psalms 24:3   Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psalms 24:4   He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

 

For the record, I have many sins I need forgiveness for.  Loaded with sins, I have touched, tasted and dwelt with evil for many years until my eyes were opened, and mercy poured in.  I have much to be thankful of, and realise I did not fully know the Lord until I met him through his Word.  With a hungry heart for truth, I searched in the solitude of my own room, or whilst sitting in a park, on a train, at work lunch breaks, and where ever I took his word with me, and he fed me.  I was not out to prove any doctrine wrong, because I did not know of all the doctrines that exist. I knew nothing, but became like a child, and depended solely on his Word for instruction.

 

I have studied for nearly as long as you, yet I know that if one has a pure heart, he can be taught more truth in one week, than what some can learn in a lifetime. 

We can discuss the Word right here and right now, and test it to be true without personal recommendations, for we are handling the Word of life.

 

Now to say I am adding words, when I have quoted those exact words in scripture, is not honest in my opinion.  You need to address this brother.

Is the book I am quoting from the KJV, having no relevance to our discussion as a form of proof in your eyes?.

If so, then we can end our discussion right now, ...and if not I have plenty more to say on this subject, as we have only scratched the surface here.

 

 

I will leave you with some of my favourite scriptures, to enlighten you spiritually for the best brother.

 

 Psalms 18:26   With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.

 Psalms 119:140   Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

 Psalms 12:6   The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

 

Your Sister in Christ

who loves you very much.

[Serving]

Hi William L,

 

Concerning this:

 

 

Regarding your continual unsubstantiated claim that there are only seven angels total, who blow the 7 trumpets while simultaneously pouring out the bowls (or 1st trumpet-then-1st bowl, 2nd trumpet-then-2nd bowl, as Last Daze says)

 

 

Revelation 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

 

The seven angels already have the 7 trumpets (plagues) which were given them when they were in the temple before God, this is clear. 

 

And then, as they exit the temple with their trumpets, this occurs:

 

Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

 

Now they have a trumpet and a vial each, if you link Rev ch8 & Rev ch15, shuffle the verses in order per prophetic context, a picture will emerge of 7 angels with trumps in one hand & vials in the other.

 

This is very substantial indeed wouldn't you agree?

 

Nevertheless, God always gives examples somewhere in the scriptures, here is one that also substantiates:

 

Judges 7:20 And the three companies blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers, and held the lamps in their left hands, and the trumpets in their right hands to blow withal: and they cried, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon.

 

 

 

Another problem with the theory that the Trumpets and Bowls are concurrent is the distinction between the 1st Bowl and the 5th Seal:
 

Rev. 16:2 And the first [angel] went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

 

At this time, the Kingdom of the Beast has clearly been established for some time. When does the Beast arise?

 

Rev. 11:7 ...the Beast...ascends out of the Abyss...

 

Actually, there is no problem at all, the problem is with the understanding of God's lingo.

 

Lets look at the entire verse in question:

 

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

 

This beast isn't ascending out of the bottomless pit there and then, not at all, this verse is simply identifying which beast kills them .. and which beast? .. it is the one that previously ascendeth out of the pit. 

 

This is the beast that the world wondered after .. see Revelation ch13 and you will see who God is speaking of, there is a perfect match there.

 

 

 

Rev. 17:8 The Beast...will ascend out of the Abyss...

 

 

As above, this is past tense lingo .. no insult intended but we must pay closer attention to avoid simple mistakes like these brother .. never accept any churches doctrine as infallible, test them as you would any man just as Christ commanded us to do, this is sound advice.

 

 

 

Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the Abyss...

 

William, there is a difference between the locked bottomless pit and the bottomless pit that the beast arose out of ..

 

For, one of the beasts that arose out of the bottomless pit was already present  even before men were ordered to accept the mark of the beast and worship his image, which means he arose out of the bottomless pit way before the 5th angel.

 

 

God bless.

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

 

Coming like a thief twice (or more) seems to me to defeat the element of surprise that is inherent in "coming as a thief". 

 

Luke 12:36 does not describe the Lord coming back from the wedding feast as you suggest.  It uses an analogy of someone returning from a wedding to demonstrate how we should be ready .  Notice the word "like".  It's an indication that an analogy is being used. 

 

“Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit. Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks. Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.  Luke 12:35-37

 

The part in orange is an obvious analogy.  "Be like", "keep your lamps lit", "open the door when he knocks" all indicate an analogy.  The part in orange is a call to readiness.  It is the blue part that actually describes the wedding feast.  Are you suggesting a second wedding feast to go with the "second coming like a thief"?  The blue part is not a reference to the battle of Armageddon as you suggest.  I'm not sure how you can reconcile that thought with the language used.  The word picture is that of a dinner where the master waits on the slaves who were watching for his return.  He serves them as they sit and dine.  I find your view on that passage to be a bit dubious.

As far as coming twice, once with the clouds of heaven, the (much later) second time to set foot on earth -- each coming will be vastly different in scope and purpose, and each shall be unexpected by all unbelievers. But believers, first of the Church, second of the Remnant of Jacob, are told to "watch" and "be ready," and many of them will be doing so, and be rewarded for it.

For unbelievers, both comings shall take place like a thief, because they never believed the words of the prophets.

 

Re: Luke 12, of course it is an analogy. An earthly wedding feast cannot begin to compare to the marriage of the heavenly Bride with the Bridegroom.

 

You say, "It is the blue part that actually describes the wedding feast.  Are you suggesting a second wedding feast to go with the "second coming like a thief"?"

Nothing in the blue part mentions anything about that being a wedding, nor even is suggestive of it. At a traditional wedding feast, no groom would ever think about serving his servants, nor would they let him: it would be disgraceful.

 

 

 

Nothing in the blue part mentions anything about that being a wedding, nor even is suggestive of it. At a traditional wedding feast, no groom would ever think about serving his servants, nor would they let him: it would be disgraceful.

 

This is no traditional wedding feast.  These are they who are of the kingdom of God.  Have you not read?

 

But the greatest among you shall be your servant.  Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.  Matthew 23:11-12

 

Disgraceful?  I think not.  Is there anyone greater than Christ in the kingdom of God?  Why do you find it odd that He would serve?  I hold to my belief that the part in blue talks about the wedding feast.  The part in orange is an analogy to teach us that we should be ready.

[Sister]

 

 

 

I like your posts, for I see the same and agree fully.

 

Revelation 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

 

The third woe comes quickly indeed. 

 

Agreed Sister.. there is absolutely no room for 7 vials after the 7th trump is sounded.

 

 

Hi Serving

 

Thank you.  I read this quickly but forgot to answer you, or thank you.

 

 

Isaiah 42:15 I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools.

 

Nations, big and small will be made waste in one hour, all of them, the doctrines and beliefs they feed on will be dried up, those beliefs will flow no more like the coursing waters of a river, instead they will become abandoned stagnant pools hasting to be dried up.no more walking after the imagination of their evil hearts: (Jeremiah 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.)

 

Isaiah 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

 

 

I like this.

 

After the 2nd coming Christ will initiate the second gathering and bring the very human (flesh) spiritually blind Israelites to His way, which they knew not (Note: Christian saints are already with Christ by this stage), so now (in Christ) they (previously blind Israelites) will finally discern good from evil, regardless of replacement theology and the baseless complaints of many many Christians against her, Christ will not forsake them (Israel) .. instead .. here begins the fulfilment of the promises God made to the father's of old.

 

Yes Christ surely comes quickly ..

 

 

Praise the Lord, yes.

 

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

For here are the flesh God has chiefly in mind:

 

Isaiah 27:13  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

 

 

 

Yes, the remnants, for their sakes.

 

For assuredly:

 

Isaiah 27:6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.

 

The word of the Lord in their mouths at that time, will bring good fruit  indeed:

 

Isaiah 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

 

Where:

 

Zephaniah 3:19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.

 

 

Praise the Lord.

 

 

Very good, I like it and agree.

 

 

You are showing that it's only the end of Babylon's system or kingdoms, at the 7th trump.  I agree.  That part is "finished"  ...Babylon is no more.  "It is Done" (rev 16:17)  She is judged, and will not rule ever again, and this is when Christ rescues Israel, at the 7th trump by stopping that war.  Christ spares them.....and Babylon judged in one hour.  No more room for more chaos, as Babylon is judged & finished.

 

A new era comes, the thousand years.  A time of healing for Israel, and for the rest of the world under Christ's rule in the 1st dominion of his reign.

The 2nd dominion would be after the 1000 years of course, which we don't know much about, only that that there will be no flesh, but all changed to spirit.

Very exciting times ahead.

[WilliamL]

 

Nothing in the blue part mentions anything about that being a wedding, nor even is suggestive of it. At a traditional wedding feast, no groom would ever think about serving his servants, nor would they let him: it would be disgraceful.

 

This is no traditional wedding feast.  These are they who are of the kingdom of God.  Have you not read?

 

But the greatest among you shall be your servant.  Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.  Matthew 23:11-12

 

Disgraceful?  I think not.  Is there anyone greater than Christ in the kingdom of God?  Why do you find it odd that He would serve?  I hold to my belief that the part in blue talks about the wedding feast.  The part in orange is an analogy to teach us that we should be ready.

The description of the Bridegroom in Matt. 25:1-10 very much follows the pattern of a traditional wedding party, including:

 

25:10 ...the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

 

In contrast, Luke 12:36 says:

 

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord,when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

 

If you cannot understand that these are two different events, so be it.

[Last Daze]

 

 

Nothing in the blue part mentions anything about that being a wedding, nor even is suggestive of it. At a traditional wedding feast, no groom would ever think about serving his servants, nor would they let him: it would be disgraceful.

 

This is no traditional wedding feast.  These are they who are of the kingdom of God.  Have you not read?

 

But the greatest among you shall be your servant.  Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.  Matthew 23:11-12

 

Disgraceful?  I think not.  Is there anyone greater than Christ in the kingdom of God?  Why do you find it odd that He would serve?  I hold to my belief that the part in blue talks about the wedding feast.  The part in orange is an analogy to teach us that we should be ready.

The description of the Bridegroom in Matt. 25:1-10 very much follows the pattern of a traditional wedding party, including:

 

25:10 ...the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

 

In contrast, Luke 12:36 says:

 

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord,when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

 

If you cannot understand that these are two different events, so be it.

 

 

What I understand is that you have quoted an analogy and a parable.  Are you telling me that you base your understanding of end times prophecy on literal interpretations of parables and analogies?  Parables and analogies are largely symbolic and meant to convey an idea.  The idea, or purpose, of these two is plainly stated where I've bolded the text.  You're pressing them beyond their intended purpose.

 

Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit.  Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks. Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.  Luke 12:35-37

 

Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.  Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.  But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’  Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’  But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’  And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.  Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’  But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’  Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.  Matthew 25:1-13

 

Both of these refer to the coming of the day of the Lord which comes like a thief in the night, right after the armies gather together for the battle of Armageddon, as I pointed out earlier.  The Lord only comes like a thief once.  Nothing anywhere indicates otherwise.