Rev. 7's great multitude before the throne

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

“... the great day of His wrath came [and continues: aorist verb tense], and who is able to stand?”

 

This verse reveals that the wrath begins after the opening of the 6th Seal. So we can see that the Lord has already come for his Church by this time. Verse 16 tells us that the people of earth say,

 

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"

 

-- which means that they have seen them!

 

When does everyone see Jesus?

 

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

 

And this is what we see 6:16-17, after the 6th Seal is opened: the peoples of earth are wailing because they have seen the coming of Christ and have recognized him. They are wailing because they had reviled and rejected him, and are now greatly afraid of the consequences.

 

 

I agree that the sixth seal indicates that the time for God's wrath has come.  This is seen in the seventh seal where the seven plague angels begin to sound the trumpets.

 

I'm not sure why you think the resurrection takes place at or before the sixth seal though.  There are numerous passages saying that the resurrection takes place on the last day.  What do you see as the last day?

 

I don't find anything in the sixth seal to indicate that the people of earth see Christ.  What they see first is the sign of the son of Man as described in the first part of Matthew 24:30.  This is the sixth seal where the sky is rolled back and people see the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb, the same scene as is pictured in Rev 5.  They don't actually see the Son of Man at the sixth seal.  It's not until the seventh trumpet / bowl, the latter part of Matthew 24:30, that they actually see the Son of Man.

 

God has not appointed us to wrath... 1 Thes. 5:9

Christ's elect are removed before the time of the wrath (but not before the Trib, which is different from the wrath of God); which wrath begins after the 6th Seal is opened.

 

"I don't find anything in the sixth seal to indicate that the people of earth see Christ." True. What you do see in Rev. 6:16 is that people have seen God and the Lamb.

 

Understand, not even John was allowed to see the Rapture, because no one is allowed to see it before it happens. (If someone tells you that he has seen it in a vision or dream, he is a liar.) John saw the heavenly signs that immediately precede the Rapture, then the un-Raptured peoples of the earth wailing after the Rapture took place. The Rapture takes place in between these two events, but John wasn't allowed to see it. Comprehende?

 

 

I agree that we are not appointed for wrath.  I agree that the wrath begins after the sixth seal.  I disagree that the rapture is the only way that God can keep us from His wrath.  There must be another way because the rapture doesn't happen until much later.

 

The timing of the rapture is clearly stated in this verse:

 

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

The rapture clearly comes after the resurrection.  When is the resurrection?

 

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

 

The resurrection-rapture is on the last day.  When is the last day?

 

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.  2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

 

The resurrection-rapture happens on the last day, the day of the Lord.  When is the day of the Lord?

 

For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.  1 Thessalonians 5:2

Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.  Revelation 16:15

 

When Jesus makes that statement in Rev 16 all that is left is for the seventh plague angel to sound his trumpet and pour out his bowl.  The day of the Lord begins with the resurrection-rapture and ends with the return of Christ; in the same day.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Matt. 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."  This is the time of the 5th Seal, the martyrdom of the saints during, not after, the Great Tribulation.

 

Hi William,

 

You may believe Matt. 24:9 is the 5th seal, but Christ says clearly in verse (6) the end is not yet. He was telling His disciples that they themselves would be hated and killed for His name's sake. Then in verse (14) He tells them the gospel will be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then the end shall come.  Then finally, in verse (15) we see the abomination of desolation.  Welcome to the time of the end!

 

 

Disagree. The phases of the moon have nothing to do with it. Just because Rev. 6 doesn't use the exact same terms as Matt. 24 does not mean they speak of two different events.

 

Disagree if you like, but the moon is very telling here.  In fact, it's the only thing that tells us anything.  The sun gets dark every day, so that won't tell us.  Meteor showers can last for weeks, so that doesn't help either.  But there is a HUGE difference between a new moon and a full moon.  It takes about 15 days to go from one to the other.  You'll see the full moon once every 29.+ days, so yes, this has everything to do with it.  It appears you're in denial because it doesn't fit your theory. 

 

I hope my understanding about these these things were adequately explained above in my posts to Last Daze. Trying to keep it short as possible.

 

Re: your words to Watching for Jesus: "Yes, these are different times as seen in the phases of the moon, but the stars falling is just meteor showers."  I disagree. Falling stars don't swirl as they fall, like figs falling from a wind-blown tree do. This is a pole reversal, wherein nighttime stars will appear to swirl as they fall, because the earth is rotating while it is turning over.

That's funny! Swirling falling stars. You're kidding, right?

Cheers

[Sister]

 

Rev. 7:9 NKJV After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands... 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them."

 

1) Who are these people?

2) Why does this passage come after the 6th Seal, and before the 7th Seal?

 

Hi William

 

They would have to be all generations that served Christ.  They had their tribulations back then also......this is the whole lot together, and they make up a great multiple of peoples.

Although many saints will be martyred in the last days, I would hardly call it a great multitude?  Many will fail the test.

 

Otherwise where else would those from the past fit into the resurrection?  This is the mass resurrection spoken off, and this resurrection I think the dead saints will take part in also going all the way back to Christ.

[WilliamL]

I think that there absolutely is scriptural evidence that the multitude beyond number in Rev 7 are those martyred in the great tribulation.  Consider these verses:

 

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;  Daniel 7:21

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.  Revelation 13:7

for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.  Matthew 24:21-22

 

Look at the multitude in Rev 7:

 

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb... Rev 7:9

 

I'm not sure how you come to any other conclusion than the multitude in Rev 7 are martyrs.  It's plainly stated that the false prophet overcomes (kills) the saints, the same ones described in Rev 7.  Jesus states that the great tribulation will be a time of persecution worse than any other time in history.  He also indicates that the ferocity of the great tribulation is such that if it wasn't cut short, none would survive it.  Saying that a great multitude beyond number was able to evade the false prophet until the sixth seal then be raptured is simply contrary to what the Bible says; especially since the resurrection-rapture happens on the last day, the day of the Lord.

 

Can you explain how so many people evaded the false prophet contrary to scripture?  AND

Can you explain how the sixth seal is the last day, the day of the Lord?

 

If not, then I'll stick to the multitude in Rev 7 being those martyred in the great tribulation.

 

Be happy to explain. First off, you seem to be forgetting that the Rapture will include every single saint that has walked in Christ since the foundation of the Church, 'a great multitude from every nation, kindred, etc.' indeed. It will not be just saints alive at the time of Christ's coming.

 

Second, most Christians killed during the Great Trib will more likely be killed by war and plague and famine and chaos, not specifically for their faith. Only those killed for their faith are martyrs. Only the martyrs will "receive white robes"; all other dead Raptured saints will be required to "wash their robes." You and many others keep ignoring the patent difference between these two phrases. They are different for a reason: 'can you explain' why "given white robes" and "wash their robes" can mean the same thing?

 

You say, "It's plainly stated that the false prophet overcomes (kills) the saints, the same ones described in Rev 7." False: this is nowhere stated. The False Prophet does not arise until the period of the 7 Trumpets, after all the Seals have been opened. The saints he kills are those of the remnant of Jacob still on the earth after the Church has been removed, during the 3-1/2 times of "Jacob's trouble," Jer. 30:7. The Daniel 7 passage you quote speaks of just this period. Daniel never speaks of the  Church's saints in the End Times, because the Church was an unrevealed mystery to OT prophets.

 

As to the the Day of the Lord: I have explained this before to you. "Day" in both OT and NT usage does not always mean 24 hours, as you seem to insist. Day often means/meant a specific period of time in which specific events must occur. In this case, the Day of the Lord refers to the period of Judgments of the Lord (at the very least). This period includes all the events of Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls.

Edited February 5, 2015 by WilliamL

[WilliamL]

When Jesus makes that statement in Rev 16 all that is left is for the seventh plague angel to sound his trumpet and pour out his bowl.  The day of the Lord begins with the resurrection-rapture and ends with the return of Christ; in the same day.

 

The argument of your post was perfectly logical up to this final statement, which is false, as I explained above. You have no proof that the Day of the Lord must refer to a 24-hour day.

 

Saying "the seventh plague angel [will] sound his trumpet and pour out his bowl' is unsupportable: where does Revelation say that the Trumpet-blowing angels are the same as the Bowl-pouring angels?

Edited February 5, 2015 by WilliamL

[WilliamL]

 

Matt. 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."  This is the time of the 5th Seal, the martyrdom of the saints during, not after, the Great Tribulation.

 

Hi William,

 

You may believe Matt. 24:9 is the 5th seal, but Christ says clearly in verse (6) the end is not yet. He was telling His disciples that they themselves would be hated and killed for His name's sake. Then in verse (14) He tells them the gospel will be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then the end shall come.  Then finally, in verse (15) we see the abomination of desolation.  Welcome to the time of the end!

 

You seem to be making the common but false assumption that verse 15 is sequential in time from verses 4-14. However, Matt. 24 and 25 are topical, not sequential: Jesus is providing a series of topics/themes of things to take place, but they are not given in sequential order. Consider 24:23-24:

 

“Then [after the AD has occurred, and the GT has begun] if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

 

Now reread verses 4-5:

 

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many."

 

These two passages are speaking of the same thing, the events of the 1st Seal, to be precise. But Jesus is saying in verse 23 that the awakening of the false Christs begins after the Abomination of Desolation occurs, during the time of the Great Tribulation. Therefore, everything prophesied in verses 4-14 actually occur after the AD, not the other way around.

 

Disagree. The phases of the moon have nothing to do with it. Just because Rev. 6 doesn't use the exact same terms as Matt. 24 does not mean they speak of two different events.

 

Disagree if you like, but the moon is very telling here.  In fact, it's the only thing that tells us anything.  The sun gets dark every day, so that won't tell us.  Meteor showers can last for weeks, so that doesn't help either.  But there is a HUGE difference between a new moon and a full moon.  It takes about 15 days to go from one to the other.  You'll see the full moon once every 29.+ days, so yes, this has everything to do with it.  It appears you're in denial because it doesn't fit your theory. 

 

Likewise I'm sure.

 

Re: your words to Watching for Jesus: "Yes, these are different times as seen in the phases of the moon, but the stars falling is just meteor showers."  I disagree. Falling stars don't swirl as they fall, like figs falling from a wind-blown tree do. This is a pole reversal, wherein nighttime stars will appear to swirl as they fall, because the earth is rotating while it is turning over.

That's funny! Swirling falling stars. You're kidding, right?

I've been around a number of fig trees, which have long drooping branches something akin to a weeping willow, except they are loaded with figs along their whole length. Such branches do swirl in a wind, and would especially do so and cast their figs when "shaken by a MIGHTY wind." Rev. 6:13 I guess you just can't visualize this poetic imagery.

[WilliamL]

They would have to be all generations that served Christ.  They had their tribulations back then also......this is the whole lot together, and they make up a great multiple of peoples.

Although many saints will be martyred in the last days, I would hardly call it a great multitude?  Many will fail the test.

 

Otherwise where else would those from the past fit into the resurrection?  This is the mass resurrection spoken off, and this resurrection I think the dead saints will take part in also going all the way back to Christ.

 

Absolutely right on!

Edited February 5, 2015 by WilliamL

[Last Daze]

 

I think that there absolutely is scriptural evidence that the multitude beyond number in Rev 7 are those martyred in the great tribulation.  Consider these verses:

 

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;  Daniel 7:21

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.  Revelation 13:7

for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.  Matthew 24:21-22

 

Look at the multitude in Rev 7:

 

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb... Rev 7:9

 

I'm not sure how you come to any other conclusion than the multitude in Rev 7 are martyrs.  It's plainly stated that the false prophet overcomes (kills) the saints, the same ones described in Rev 7.  Jesus states that the great tribulation will be a time of persecution worse than any other time in history.  He also indicates that the ferocity of the great tribulation is such that if it wasn't cut short, none would survive it.  Saying that a great multitude beyond number was able to evade the false prophet until the sixth seal then be raptured is simply contrary to what the Bible says; especially since the resurrection-rapture happens on the last day, the day of the Lord.

 

Can you explain how so many people evaded the false prophet contrary to scripture?  AND

Can you explain how the sixth seal is the last day, the day of the Lord?

 

If not, then I'll stick to the multitude in Rev 7 being those martyred in the great tribulation.

 

Be happy to explain. First off, you seem to be forgetting that the Rapture will include every single saint that has walked in Christ since the foundation of the Church, 'a great multitude from every nation, kindred, etc.' indeed. It will not be just saints alive at the time of Christ's coming.

 

Second, most Christians killed during the Great Trib will more likely be killed by war and plague and famine and chaos, not specifically for their faith. Only those killed for their faith are martyrs. Only the martyrs will "receive white robes"; all other dead Raptured saints will be required to "wash their robes." You and many others keep ignoring the patent difference between these two phrases. They are different for a reason: 'can you explain' why "given white robes" and "wash their robes" can mean the same thing?

 

You say, "It's plainly stated that the false prophet overcomes (kills) the saints, the same ones described in Rev 7." False: this is nowhere stated. The False Prophet does not arise until the period of the 7 Trumpets, after all the Seals have been opened. The saints he kills are those of the remnant of Jacob still on the earth after the Church has been removed, during the 3-1/2 times of "Jacob's trouble," Jer. 30:7. The Daniel 7 passage you quote speaks of just this period. Daniel never speaks of the  Church's saints in the End Times, because the Church was an unrevealed mystery to OT prophets.

 

As to the the Day of the Lord: I have explained this before to you. "Day" in both OT and NT usage does not always mean 24 hours, as you seem to insist. Day often means/meant a specific period of time in which specific events must occur. In this case, the Day of the Lord refers to the period of Judgments of the Lord (at the very least). This period includes all the events of Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls.

 

 

We clearly see things differently.  I'll let it go at that.  I don't see any point in continuing since you're obviously always right.  Have a great life.

[Last Daze]

 

When Jesus makes that statement in Rev 16 all that is left is for the seventh plague angel to sound his trumpet and pour out his bowl.  The day of the Lord begins with the resurrection-rapture and ends with the return of Christ; in the same day.

 

The argument of your post was perfectly logical up to this final statement, which is false, as I explained above. You have no proof that the Day of the Lord must refer to a 24-hour day.

 

Saying "the seventh plague angel [will] sound his trumpet and pour out his bowl' is unsupportable: where does Revelation say that the Trumpet-blowing angels are the same as the Bowl-pouring angels?

 

 

Revelation 15.  Verses 6-7 in particular:

 

and the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

 

I know I'm wrong...like you've told me many times before...but that's where it says it.

[WilliamL]

We clearly see things differently.  I'll let it go at that.  I don't see any point in continuing since you're obviously always right.  Have a great life.

 

Ah, a statement we can both agree on, each to the other.