Rev. 7's great multitude before the throne

[WilliamL]

 

Saying "the seventh plague angel [will] sound his trumpet and pour out his bowl' is unsupportable: where does Revelation say that the Trumpet-blowing angels are the same as the Bowl-pouring angels?

 

 

Revelation 15.  Verses 6-7 in particular:

 

and the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

 

I know I'm wrong...like you've told me many times before...but that's where it says it.

 

Context, context, context.

 

Rev. 8:2  And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

Rev. 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is completed.

(Verse 6, "and the seven angels came out of the naos in heaven..." -- the "the seven" here refers to the antecedent passage of verse 1. You can't presume anything more from the text, such as "the only seven angels tasked by God.")

 

Thus, there is no textual reason to say that these two sets of angels are the same, because there are lots of angels in heaven. Not to mention that angels are never spoken of as having more than two arms, and pouring out bowls while blowing trumpets doesn't seem possible. (Bowls tucked under a wing, while trumpets blown?)

[Last Daze]

 

 

Saying "the seventh plague angel [will] sound his trumpet and pour out his bowl' is unsupportable: where does Revelation say that the Trumpet-blowing angels are the same as the Bowl-pouring angels?

 

 

Revelation 15.  Verses 6-7 in particular:

 

and the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

 

I know I'm wrong...like you've told me many times before...but that's where it says it.

 

Context, context, context.

 

Rev. 8:2  And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

Rev. 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is completed.

(Verse 6, "and the seven angels came out of the naos in heaven..." -- the "the seven" here refers to the antecedent passage of verse 1. You can't presume anything more from the text, such as "the only seven angels tasked by God.")

 

Thus, there is no textual reason to say that these two sets of angels are the same, because there are lots of angels in heaven. Not to mention that angels are never spoken of as having more than two arms, and pouring out bowls while blowing trumpets doesn't seem possible. (Bowls tucked under a wing, while trumpets blown?)

 

 

You glossed right over the fact that the bowls were given to the seven angels that already had the seven plagues.  I even highlighted it for you.  Are you suggesting that there are seven more plagues that we know absolutely nothing about?  If not, then it seems reasonable to me that they are the trumpets.

 

A comparison between the same numbered trumpets and bowls shows an undeniable correlation.

 

I never said the bowls were poured out while the trumpet was being blown, and I'm not interested in being the object of your ridicule.  Done here.

[Last Daze]

 

They would have to be all generations that served Christ.  They had their tribulations back then also......this is the whole lot together, and they make up a great multiple of peoples.

Although many saints will be martyred in the last days, I would hardly call it a great multitude?  Many will fail the test.

 

Otherwise where else would those from the past fit into the resurrection?  This is the mass resurrection spoken off, and this resurrection I think the dead saints will take part in also going all the way back to Christ.

 

Absolutely right on!

 

 

The great tribulation has been going on for nearly 2000 years?  That's new.

[Sister]

 

 

They would have to be all generations that served Christ.  They had their tribulations back then also......this is the whole lot together, and they make up a great multiple of peoples.

Although many saints will be martyred in the last days, I would hardly call it a great multitude?  Many will fail the test.

 

Otherwise where else would those from the past fit into the resurrection?  This is the mass resurrection spoken off, and this resurrection I think the dead saints will take part in also going all the way back to Christ.

 

Absolutely right on!

 

 

The great tribulation has been going on for nearly 2000 years?  That's new.

 

Hi Last Daze

 

I can see you are getting frustrated about Williams view on the 7 angels.  Don't worry brother, you are right on this one.

.....and sorry William, you cannot see that there are only 7 angels,  not 14 or more.  The scriptures are clear, only 7 angels to pour out the wrath of God.

The trumpets and vials are only symbolic.  The trumpet sounds the alarm, ...."it's time.".....and the vial is poured out (God's wrath)

Both are happening at the same event.

 

Just like parts of Rev are backed up by Daniel,

The vials back up the trumpets.  They give us different details, from different angles of the same event.

 

for example,

When the 6th angel blows the trumpet, ("It's time") , God sends him to release Satan's angels who are bound in the Great Euphrates River.  (They are in a spiritual prison, bound there somewhere)

Now the same angel who blew that trumpet, pours out the vial... which is the wrath.  Now we have the Euphrates River dried up, so that these evil angels who are prepared, can stir up the Kings of the East to come into Israel to war.  It's the same event. It wont happen in a day. 

 

1. The angels must be released first, 

2. then they start to stir trouble ,

3. then the river dries up,

4. then The Kings of the East have to plan to assemble and cross over,

5. Then the Kings of the East actually do cross over this new route made for them

6. Then Israel invaded again with a different lot of enemies

7. All leading up to that great war with all the kings of the earth, there in Israel fighting each other,

8. And finally Christ stops that war, and they reposition into Armageddon to fight the lamb instead of each other.

9. by the 7th Trumpet, it is finished.

10. by the 7th vial, it is finished.

 

Same event.

We see it clearly now from both chapters.

 

Take care and God bless

 

 

Last Daze

 

Tribulations against Christians have been going on since Christ's days, .....whether they were killed or not, does not mean they had it easy.

Jesus said if we follow him, we would be hated by all men.  One thing we all have in common is that we have suffered in some way for having that spirit of Christ in us, by being excluded, hated, or affected for the decisions we make. Satan makes war with the Woman's seed, so because we reject him, he hates us, and will give us all a bad time here and there to afflict us.

Each time we face a hard time, means we are going through some sort of tribulation.  Many of us will face a major one in our lifetime...a test of some sort, a great tribulation.

We have had it easy in our generation.  We have had little trials, but the big one is coming.

The ones who don't give up their faith, and continue doing what is righteous, regardless of the consequences have overcome, and suffered for Christ's sake,..same for all generations as it's exactly the "same fight"

If one is true, then they have suffered in one form or another.  It has to be.  Every man is tested in his lifetime, so he can be strengthened and overcome.  The saints of the last days are just going to find out how hard it was for them back in the day, and will join them in their sufferings.  All get white robes in the end, and this weeds out the Christians who only have lip service, as they will not have the same foundation.

 

So we have to join those ones symbolically crying out in the 5th seal, because God said wait a little longer until your brethren are killed and join you.

We are the last generation, and we will be killed, and after that we will join them in the resurrection.  If we go back to all the generations, this would be a great multitude that no man could number.  2000 years worth of Christians would be very very many.

 

 

 

Revelation 7:9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

Came out of "great tribulation" , not "The great tribulation", but a great tribulation for them during their time.

Re the christians of the last days, I'd say not a great multitude, because the test is going to be so hard that many will give in to the pressure because of their children etc, and the hatred spread against us within the whole world will be the greatest hatred ever since history.

 

God bless.

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

They would have to be all generations that served Christ.  They had their tribulations back then also......this is the whole lot together, and they make up a great multiple of peoples.

Although many saints will be martyred in the last days, I would hardly call it a great multitude?  Many will fail the test.

 

Otherwise where else would those from the past fit into the resurrection?  This is the mass resurrection spoken off, and this resurrection I think the dead saints will take part in also going all the way back to Christ.

 

Absolutely right on!

 

 

The great tribulation has been going on for nearly 2000 years?  That's new.

 

Hi Last Daze

 

I can see you are getting frustrated about Williams view on the 7 angels.  Don't worry brother, you are right on this one.

.....and sorry William, you cannot see that there are only 7 angels,  not 14 or more.  The scriptures are clear, only 7 angels to pour out the wrath of God.

The trumpets and vials are only symbolic.  The trumpet sounds the alarm, ...."it's time.".....and the vial is poured out (God's wrath)

Both are happening at the same event.

 

Just like parts of Rev are backed up by Daniel,

The vials back up the trumpets.  They give us different details, from different angles of the same event.

 

for example,

When the 6th angel blows the trumpet, ("It's time") , God sends him to release Satan's angels who are bound in the Great Euphrates River.  (They are in a spiritual prison, bound there somewhere)

Now the same angel who blew that trumpet, pours out the vial... which is the wrath.  Now we have the Euphrates River dried up, so that these evil angels who are prepared, can stir up the Kings of the East to come into Israel to war.  It's the same event. It wont happen in a day. 

 

1. The angels must be released first, 

2. then they start to stir trouble ,

3. then the river dries up,

4. then The Kings of the East have to plan to assemble and cross over,

5. Then the Kings of the East actually do cross over this new route made for them

6. Then Israel invaded again with a different lot of enemies

7. All leading up to that great war with all the kings of the earth, there in Israel fighting each other,

8. And finally Christ stops that war, and they reposition into Armageddon to fight the lamb instead of each other.

9. by the 7th Trumpet, it is finished.

10. by the 7th vial, it is finished.

 

Same event.

We see it clearly now from both chapters.

 

Take care and God bless

 

 

Last Daze

 

Tribulations against Christians have been going on since Christ's days, .....whether they were killed or not, does not mean they had it easy.

Jesus said if we follow him, we would be hated by all men.  One thing we all have in common is that we have suffered in some way for having that spirit of Christ in us, by being excluded, hated, or affected for the decisions we make. Satan makes war with the Woman's seed, so because we reject him, he hates us, and will give us all a bad time here and there to afflict us.

Each time we face a hard time, means we are going through some sort of tribulation.  Many of us will face a major one in our lifetime...a test of some sort, a great tribulation.

We have had it easy in our generation.  We have had little trials, but the big one is coming.

The ones who don't give up their faith, and continue doing what is righteous, regardless of the consequences have overcome, and suffered for Christ's sake,..same for all generations as it's exactly the "same fight"

If one is true, then they have suffered in one form or another.  It has to be.  Every man is tested in his lifetime, so he can be strengthened and overcome.  The saints of the last days are just going to find out how hard it was for them back in the day, and will join them in their sufferings.  All get white robes in the end, and this weeds out the Christians who only have lip service, as they will not have the same foundation.

 

So we have to join those ones symbolically crying out in the 5th seal, because God said wait a little longer until your brethren are killed and join you.

We are the last generation, and we will be killed, and after that we will join them in the resurrection.  If we go back to all the generations, this would be a great multitude that no man could number.  2000 years worth of Christians would be very very many.

 

 

 

Revelation 7:9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

Came out of "great tribulation" , not "The great tribulation", but a great tribulation for them during their time.

Re the christians of the last days, I'd say not a great multitude, because the test is going to be so hard that many will give in to the pressure because of their children etc, and the hatred spread against us within the whole world will be the greatest hatred ever since history.

 

God bless.

 

 

Hi Sister,

 

I understand what you're saying.  How many people make up a multitude beyond number?  I don't know.  How will people respond when confronted with the "worship or die" ultimatum?  I don't know.  I can't really base an interpretation on unknowns.

 

When I look at the progression of the seals and compare it to how Jesus described things in Matthew 24, the multitude of Rev 7 appear after what Jesus described as:

 

for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  Matthew 24:21

 

Why would the reference in Rev 7 to great tribulation be referring to something beyond what Jesus stated?

 

Also, if the great multitude in Rev 7 includes Christians from all generations, that would mean that the resurrection-rapture happens at the sixth seal which it clearly does not.  So there are timing issues as well.  The resurrection-rapture happens on the last day, the day of the Lord, when Jesus comes like a thief, after the armies gather for the battle of Armageddon.

 

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.  Revelation 16:14-16

 

So, I'm not sure how you reconcile the sixth seal as being the last day, or coming after the sixth bowl which is what it would have to be if the multitude in Rev 7 included those of the resurrection-rapture.  The only thing that makes sense to me is that the multitude in Rev 7 are those that came out of what Jesus described as great tribulation which is that time from when the abomination of desolation is set up until the sign of the Son of Man appears at the sixth seal.

[Sister]

Last daze.
 

The mass resurrection will happen on the 7th trumpet, the coming.  The coming is on the 7th seal.

I'm not sure how I gave the impression otherwise in my answer?

If it was by quoting the 5th seal, then the 5th seal is a just a metaphor of those already dead crying out.  What the fifth seal shows us is that the persecutions will take place then.  That we will join them "in the grave", for a while.....but will be raised with them on the 7th trumpet at the end of the tribulation.

The last day is the last trumpet (7th), I'm with you on this brother.

 

But something in my answer has given  another impression.  I'm not sure what part of it does?

[Last Daze]

Last daze.

 

The mass resurrection will happen on the 7th trumpet, the coming.  The coming is on the 7th seal.

I'm not sure how I gave the impression otherwise in my answer?

If it was by quoting the 5th seal, then the 5th seal is a just a metaphor of those already dead crying out.  What the fifth seal shows us is that the persecutions will take place then.  That we will join them "in the grave", for a while.....but will be raised with them on the 7th trumpet at the end of the tribulation.

The last day is the last trumpet (7th), I'm with you on this brother.

 

But something in my answer has given  another impression.  I'm not sure what part of it does?

 

Hi Sister,

 

I think it was your statement here concerning the multitude in Rev 7 that threw me:

 

 

This is the mass resurrection spoken off, and this resurrection I think the dead saints will take part in also going all the way back to Christ.

 

 

It sounded to me like you were agreeing with WilliamL that the multitude in Rev 7 shows those who have just been resurrected-raptured.  Since the Rev 7 multitude is positioned between the sixth and seventh seal, WilliamL is (as I understand him) saying that the resurrection-rapture happens at the sixth seal and that's why we see them in Rev 7, so I figured that you likewise agreed with that.  I see from your explanation that that may be where the confusion comes in.  So do you see the multitude in Rev 7 as being all martyrs down through the ages yet to be resurrected?

[WilliamL]

Hi Last Daze

I can see you are getting frustrated about Williams view on the 7 angels.  Don't worry brother, you are right on this one.

.....and sorry William, you cannot see that there are only 7 angels,  not 14 or more.  The scriptures are clear, only 7 angels to pour out the wrath of God.

The trumpets and vials are only symbolic.  The trumpet sounds the alarm, ...."it's time.".....and the vial is poured out (God's wrath)

Both are happening at the same event.

 

Just like parts of Rev are backed up by Daniel,

The vials back up the trumpets.  They give us different details, from different angles of the same event.

 

for example,

When the 6th angel blows the trumpet, ("It's time") , God sends him to release Satan's angels who are bound in the Great Euphrates River.  (They are in a spiritual prison, bound there somewhere)

Now the same angel who blew that trumpet, pours out the vial... which is the wrath.  Now we have the Euphrates River dried up, so that these evil angels who are prepared, can stir up the Kings of the East to come into Israel to war.  It's the same event. It wont happen in a day.  ...

Yes, I've heard this argument before, in many forms. Some people claim that the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls all take place concurrently.

 

Let's give it a test. If any part fails, the whole system's logic fails.

 

Rev. 8:8 Then the second angel sounded... 9 and a third of the living creatures in the sea died...

Rev. 16:2 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea...and every living creature in the sea died.

 

Rev. 8:12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck... A third of the day did not shine...

Rev. 16:8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat...

 

There simply is not agreement here. These two pairs of events take place at different times, because they are different events: "both are" not "happening at the same event."

Edited February 8, 2015 by WilliamL

[Last Daze]

 

Hi Last Daze

I can see you are getting frustrated about Williams view on the 7 angels.  Don't worry brother, you are right on this one.

.....and sorry William, you cannot see that there are only 7 angels,  not 14 or more.  The scriptures are clear, only 7 angels to pour out the wrath of God.

The trumpets and vials are only symbolic.  The trumpet sounds the alarm, ...."it's time.".....and the vial is poured out (God's wrath)

Both are happening at the same event.

 

Just like parts of Rev are backed up by Daniel,

The vials back up the trumpets.  They give us different details, from different angles of the same event.

 

for example,

When the 6th angel blows the trumpet, ("It's time") , God sends him to release Satan's angels who are bound in the Great Euphrates River.  (They are in a spiritual prison, bound there somewhere)

Now the same angel who blew that trumpet, pours out the vial... which is the wrath.  Now we have the Euphrates River dried up, so that these evil angels who are prepared, can stir up the Kings of the East to come into Israel to war.  It's the same event. It wont happen in a day.  ...

Yes, I've heard this argument before, in many forms. Some people claim that the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls all take place concurrently.

 

Let's give it a test. If any part fails, the whole system's logic fails.

 

Rev. 8:8 Then the second angel sounded... 9 and a third of the living creatures in the sea died...

Rev. 16:2 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea...and every living creature in the sea died.

 

Rev. 8:12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck... A third of the day did not shine...

Rev. 16:8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat...

 

There simply is not agreement here. These two pairs of events take place at different times, because they are different events: "both are" not "happening at the same event."

 

 

I agree that they are different events, however, they are brought about by the same plague angel.  When I made the correlation between each numbered trumpet and bowl I wasn't saying that they were the same thing, just that they were related.  The trumpet will announce or begin the judgment where as the bowl will bring it to it's fullness.  I expounded on that thought, comparing the trumpets and bowls in if interested.

[Sister]

Yes, I've heard this argument before, in many forms. Some people claim that the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls all take place concurrently.

 

Let's give it a test. If any part fails, the whole system's logic fails.

 

Rev. 8:8 Then the second angel sounded... 9 and a third of the living creatures in the sea died...

Rev. 16:2 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea...and every living creature in the sea died.

Rev. 8:12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck... A third of the day did not shine...

Rev. 16:8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat...

 

There simply is not agreement here. These two pairs of events take place at different times, because they are different events: "both are" not "happening at the same event."

 

 

Hi William.

 

 Revelation 8:8   And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 Revelation 8:9   And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

 

This burning mountain is thrown into the sea.   God is dividing the seas here into three parts.

The burning mountain falls into one part of the sea, a third part of it only.  We don't know which part yet until it happens, but it will be a busy part of the sea used for traffic.

That one third part becomes contaminated, and everything in that one third part gets contaminated and kills life.

 

 Revelation 16:3   And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

 

Everything in that one third part of the sea that was hit, died..

But we wont know this unless we have read Rev 8 and connect the event.

It's not the whole sea, but only one third where all living creatures die, ....in that area.

 

 

Last Daze

I will get back to you, and William I will finish addressing the other scriptures re 4th angel.