Eph 6:18 Praying in the spirit?

[Guest shiloh357]

The gift of tongues is not in view in I Cor. 13:8.   Paul's point in verse 8 is that God's love never fails.  Nothing else can be depended upon except God's love  

Prophesies and human tongues, and knowledge will all one day pass away, but God's love will never pass away.  

 

Paul doesn't have spiritual gifts in view.  He is not saying that gift of tongues will not pass away until what is perfect (the world to come) comes.  That's not even close to what he is trying to get across.    Paul was trying to correct Corinthian excesses with the supernatural gifts.

 

Today, we have a false teaching about tongues regarding personal "prayer languages"  that the Bible knows nothing about.  The Bible makes no mention of praying privately in tongues, yet there is an entire body of theology that centers on that concept.

[1to3]

 

It was my understanding that their are two types of speaking in tongues, one is from another "known language" and the other kind is a unknown language only understood by God,

so that the devils cannot understand.

From The Living Bible -Paraphrased- Self-HelpEdition

1Corinthian14:2

But if your gift is that of being able to "speak in tongues",

that is to speak in languages you haven't learned,

you will be talking to God but not to others,

since they won't be able to understand you.

You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit but it will be a secret.

 

3-But one who proĥesies, preaching the message of God, is helping others

grow in the Lord, encouraging and comforting them.

 

4-So a person "speaking in tongues" help himself grow spiritually,

but one who prophesies, preaching messages from god, helps the entire church grow

in holiness abd hapiness

 

The KingJames version :

1 Corinthians 14:2

For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God,

for no one understands him;

however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

3- But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation to men,

4-He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,

but he who prophesies edifies the church.

 

The above shilow357 was what I was trying to say .

 

the idea of two types of tongues, one being a human language and one being a supernatural language, is not supported in the Greek of the New Testament.  

 

 

 

[Sevenseas]

The gift of tongues is not in view in I Cor. 13:8.   Paul's point in verse 8 is that God's love never fails.  Nothing else can be depended upon except God's love  

Prophesies and human tongues, and knowledge will all one day pass away, but God's love will never pass away.  

 

Paul doesn't have spiritual gifts in view.  He is not saying that gift of tongues will not pass away until what is perfect (the world to come) comes.  That's not even close to what he is trying to get across.    Paul was trying to correct Corinthian excesses with the supernatural gifts.

 

Today, we have a false teaching about tongues regarding personal "prayer languages"  that the Bible knows nothing about.  The Bible makes no mention of praying privately in tongues, yet there is an entire body of theology that centers on that concept.

 

 

Well then why bother to mention it.  Let's look at that.

 

You are basically doing what you claim others do regarding your posts when they disagree.  You are ignoring what the passage is actually saying in order to make

a point that you believe that is not scriptural.  The teaching that we already have perfect and that perfect is the Bible, is incorrect.  First of all, the Bible has not

arrived or come...Paul is obviously speaking of the fullfillment of prophecy and the return of Christ and God's everlasting kingdom.

 

 

 

Paul doesn't have spiritual gifts in view.  He is not saying that gift of tongues will not pass away until what is perfect (the world to come) comes.

 

 

Right, yet in the next breath you state Paul is correcting the misuse of said gifts.  I find this a curious viewpoint.

 

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

The only possible way that a person can conclude that the gifts are no longer in operation is if they CHOOSE to ignore the bolded sentences above because they

don't fit in with their theology.  Man's theology will always state this or that is no longer valid....or that does not apply today...or we don't need the gifts anymore.

 

But that is not what God says.  

 

and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.  Romans 5:5

 

We can only receive God's love through His Spirit....the Holy Spirit...who is given to us by God.  Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would return...in His place

as it was time for Him to return to the Father.  So, when Paul is speaking about love in I Corinthians he is most assuredly doing so in the power of the

Holy Spirit and filled with the knowledge of God's love through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  To insist this is not so, is to reveal, perhaps, that one has 

not experienced what Paul is writing about here and having no knowledge of that experience or actual way of life, the conclusion is reached that we simply

come to knowledge through the written word and no longer appreciate or even believe, that the very life of Christ through God's Spirit can fill us today

and create the experience of knowing that Paul addresses...though in part, it is indeed the hope we have and that is addressed as one of the three things

that remain.

 

 

 

Paul doesn't have spiritual gifts in view.  He is not saying that gift of tongues will not pass away until what is perfect (the world to come) comes.  That's not even close to what he is trying to get across.    Paul was trying to correct Corinthian excesses with the supernatural gifts.

 

 

Paul is contrasting the misuse of gifts with that which is perfect...God's love....ALL gifts should, ideally, operate through love...which of course is not what many exhibit today.

 

It is God's love that holds back the final curtain and there is a vast diffeence between operating in love for one another and operating from doctrine only.  You cannot have

this without accepting the Holy Spirit.  And one who does not accept the Holy Spirit, not at rebirth because that is not what is being discussed and nowhere does scripture

state you must speak in tongues to be saved, will simply not experience what some of us are talking about here or for that matter, what Paul is actually writing about.

 

You don't dissect the Holy Spirit and no one tells Him what to do.  IMO, there is a thin line between teaching there are no more spiritual gifts and tongues has ceased and

actually refusing the Holy Spirit.  But you know, I leave that one with God because juding the heart of another person is not my place.  

 

 

Today, we have a false teaching about tongues regarding personal "prayer languages"  that the Bible knows nothing about.  The Bible makes no mention of praying privately in tongues, yet there is an entire body of theology that centers on that concept.

 

 

 

Oh but it does.  Those who teach otherwise have resolved their conflict by simply denying it....to no avail however, because it is ongoing and no one can stop

it.  The Holy Spirit searches our hearts and He knows who is hungry enough to ask because they believe there must be more.  Ours should be a spiritual life

and not just a matter of getting our doctrine correct...mind you, all of what I state is IN the Bible

 

The false teaching is denying the infilling of the Holy Spirit and allowing God to disperse HIS gifts as HE sees fit for the good of the Body of Christ.

 

It's a serious issue and may one day mean the difference between being able to stand or falling.  I know I cannot live without the Holy Spirit even on

 a day to day basis.

 

The Holy Spirit is a person and does not operate outside the will of God.  If people are deceived and misuse the gifts for their own glorification, they have their reward.

[Ezra]

Trying to add that tongues will cease, from 1 Corinthians 13, would also mean all in that verse is true.

If that verse could not have its fulfilment during the Church Age, it would have been quite unnecessary in Scripture. 

 

After all there are about 20 spiritual gifts altogether, but Paul presents just three gifts which will cease when that which is complete has come (not  "He who is perfect", at which time ALL the gifts on earth would cease, and the Church would be raptured). Also, tongues were a "sign" to unbelieving Jews, which has a bearing on this.

 

Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge (or more precisely supernatural knowledge given by Divine revelation) were all means of bringing direct revelations from God to the apostolic churches, while the NT was still being put together.  When the New Testament was complete (confirmed by Rev 22:18,19), there would be no more prophecies directly from God.  All that we need now is to be found in Scripture (2 Tim 3:16,17).  Therefore 1 Cor 13:8-10 has indeed been fulfilled.

 

Modern tongues are NOT the same as NT tongues:

1. If the geniuine gift of tongues was still prevalent, it would be evident in every kind of church and all churches (Pentecostal/Charismatic or not).

2. The languages spoken would be supernatural foreign languages.

3. There would be no coaching to make this "gift" operational.

4. Women would never speak during public worship, since that is forbidden.

5. The switch to "prayer language" and "angelic language" would not have happened.

6. Since all do not speak in tongues according to Paul, tongues would not have become an "evidence" of the filling of the Holy Spirit.

[OneLight]

Trying to add that tongues will cease, from 1 Corinthians 13, would also mean all in that verse is true.

If that verse could not have its fulfilment during the Church Age, it would have been quite unnecessary in Scripture.

The Church Age has not ended yet, and Christ has not returned. The two go hand in hand.

[Guest shiloh357]

Sevenseas, where is a private prayer language mentioned/discussed in the Bible??

[Sevenseas]

Sevenseas, where is a private prayer language mentioned/discussed in the Bible??

 

 

You know, that was answered by Qnts in post 32.

 

You responded by telling her that what she posted was not true.  As follows (post 33)

 

 

No, Qnts, that is incorrect.   Paul is talking about praying in an unknown tongue,  not praying "in tongues."   He is not talking about a supernatural "prayer language" as some try to assert.  

 

It is not some heavenly language.  The word used for "tongue" is used to refer to human languages in every other place it is found in Scripture. 

 

 

You see, the problem for you shiloh, is that you simply do not believe what is in front of your eyes.

 

 

Nonetheless, it appears your claim (which you do not back up) is wrong.  The Greek word actually used in I Corinthians 14:2 and referred to in the response

that Qnts gave is not the same as elsewhere referring to known tongues. You state that it is the same word used elsewhere to indicate a known tongue yet

it appears that statement is simply unsubstantiated...both literally on your part, and practically when someone bothers to check it out.

 

Is every translation wrong then?  Everybody but those who are cessationists got it wrong?

 

You don't believe.  That's all that is going on here.

 

 

γλώσσῃ (glōssē) — 7 Occurrences

1 Corinthians 14:2 N-DFS

International Version

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

New Living Translation

For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don't understand what I am saying.

English Standard Version

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.

New American Standard Bible 

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

King James Bible

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Holman Christian Standard Bible

For if I pray in another language, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

International Standard Version

For if I pray in a foreign language, my spirit prays but my mind is not productive. 

NET Bible

If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

For if I should pray in languages, my spirit is praying, but my understanding is unfruitful.

King James 2000 Bible

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

American King James Version

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

American Standard Version

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Douay-Rheims Bible

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is without fruit. 

Darby Bible Translation

For if I pray with a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

English Revised Version

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Webster's Bible Translation

For if I pray in an unknown language, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Weymouth New Testament

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is barren.

World English Bible

For if I pray in another language, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Young's Literal Translation

for if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit doth pray, and my understanding is unfruitful

.

[Sevenseas]

 

Modern tongues are NOT the same as NT tongues:

1. If the geniuine gift of tongues was still prevalent, it would be evident in every kind of church and all churches (Pentecostal/Charismatic or not).

2. The languages spoken would be supernatural foreign languages.

3. There would be no coaching to make this "gift" operational.

4. Women would never speak during public worship, since that is forbidden.

5. The switch to "prayer language" and "angelic language" would not have happened.

6. Since all do not speak in tongues according to Paul, tongues would not have become an "evidence" of the filling of the Holy Spirit.

 

 

1.  Not if a person does not have the faith to accept what the Bible clearly states.  I've never 'seen' God...yet by faith I believe and so it is regarding the spiritual gifts

      He gives.  I may have a broader experience with regards to who does and who does not speak in tongues because you are simply and definatley wrong to state

      that there is a lack of gifts in churches that are not Pentecostal or Charasmatic.  My background is Brethern and it was during my 15 years growing up in that

      church that I was saved at the age of 5 and then filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues at the age of 18.

 

       Further, I have known Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterian and others who speak in tongues.  God is not aware of boundaries or denominations

      and He fills those who hunger and thirst after Him IN SPITE of those who wish to control His outpouring and His gracious gift of His Spirit.

 

      He does not FORCE Himself on anyone who does not ask, so that would be an indicator when there is a LACK of His Spirit in a church.

 

2.  In some instances most definately and I have no reason to doubt some that state they have actually had this experience on the mission field.  However, each individual

      may still pray or worship in tongues as there is both the 'gift' as listed along with teacher etc and the infilling of the Holy Spirit for POWER to live the Christian life....

      as Christ described when addressing the apostles.  but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."   Acts 1:8

 

3.   Well, while I would agree that forcing or insisting is not a biblical injunction, it is not uncommon or wrong to pray that another would receive the Holy Spirit as a 

      separate event from salvation as they are not the same.  As follows:

 

      While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when^a you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues^b and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

 

4.  Yes, those who have a legalistic approach and forbid to speak in tongues and insist it is no longer a gift seem to also employ the gift of silencing women while

     the Bible plainly speaks of women prophysing in church by the Holy Spirit.

 

     Personally, I find it odd and quite contradictory that while all the gifts are ignored ESPECIALLY the gift of tongues and praying in tongues, that those who

     wish to do away with the Holy Spirit being personally involved in our lives ALSO insist that women should nonetheless be silent as a general rule even

     though no such rule exists.  They take instructions to a specific situation (Corinth) and apply it world and centry wide.  

 

I have seen enough men act disorderly and inappropriately in church to advise them to follow their own advice to women unless they follow the 

decently and in order advice given by Paul.  God does not control women and neither should men.  The Holy Spirit is given to each to enable us

to exercise self control...however, due to the lack of adherence to biblical instructions there are many things being done today supposedly in the

name of God that really are not fitting to be called such.

 

5.  There is not switch.  There are TWO DIFFERENT things going on and each has been carefully covered and referenced in THIS VERY THREAD

 

6. Was Paul referring to the gift of tongues or to the personal infilling of the Holy Spirit as a separate event AFTER salvation?  It would appear that

    Paul actually had this to say as well:  Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.  I Cor. 14:5  TWO separate things referenced in this verse as well...both the gift of tongues with interpretation and the personal edification exampled in praying in tongues.

[Guest shiloh357]

Sevenseas, Qnts IS wrong and so are you.  The  Bible knows NOTHING of some private prayer language in tongues.  If such a thing were real, there would likely be a discussion on it.  But the Bible never discusses that.  It is just a made up concept by the Charismatics/Pentecostals. 

 

The Greek word used for "tongues"  in I Cor. 14 is the same word used in Acts 2.   There is no difference.  The gibberish that goes on in some churches is just bogus.  It is not at all the gift of tongues in the New Testament.

 

Glossa, the word used for tongues in I Cor. 14 is the same word used six times in Acts, particularly Acts 2.   There is no distinction between a known language a heavenly language.  The modern tongues movement is not a biblical phenomenon and there is certainly no special prayer language.

[Sevenseas]

 

 

Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge (or more precisely supernatural knowledge given by Divine revelation) were all means of bringing direct revelations from God to the apostolic churches, while the NT was still being put together.  When the New Testament was complete (confirmed by Rev 22:18,19), there would be no more prophecies directly from God.  All that we need now is to be found in Scripture (2 Tim 3:16,17).  Therefore 1 Cor 13:8-10 has indeed been fulfilled.

 

 

Prophecy in the Old and New testaments are not the same.

 

All that is in scripture is far better understood with the Holy Spirit as our Teacher, bringing back to our remembrance what we study.

 

The Holy Spirit makes the word of God alive and it is a far different experience then simply reading or studying...although both are correct also