What Kind Of Life Did Jesus Purchase For You ?

[Guest shiloh357]

Hello Jim.

 

First of all, when Jesus told Paul,, "my grace is sufficient for you," he was not telling Paul, "you take care of this; you do it."  That is not what Jesus was saying to Paul, at all.  There is no way you can get that from the Greek.  Jesus was telling Paul that His grace was sufficient for Paul to bear the thorn he was suffering from.  Jesus was going to support Him and give him the strength and grace to continue on in spite of what He was suffering. Why?   Jesus said why. "My strength is made perfect in weakness."    Jesus was going to show His  power through Paul in spite of Paul's physical illness. This was so that Paul could not take any credit and no one would look at Paul as having the ability to continue preaching and ministering while suffering through something that would side line other people.   

 

The greatest testimonies are not miraculous healings.   The greatest testimonies are those who don't get healed, yet continue to serve God and continues to work through dear saints of God who battle the ill effects of an illness.   That's when God's power is seen the most.  It's when He doesn't fix everything, yet this person has a peace and a joy and that is inexplicable due to their circumstances.   They live above the circumstances, by faith and God's grace is sufficient for them just like it was sufficient for Paul.    As I said, Jesus is always enough, even if He doesn't fix everything and give us perfect health.   He has never promised perfect health for His followers.

 

You have made a grievous theological error when you say that God is not in control everything.   The Bible teaches that God is 100% (in control).   He permits things that he hates, but He is still in control.  God did not transfer any of His sovereignty to man.   God gave Adam  a limited form of authority or dominion over the works of His hands, but He did NOT surrender control of the universe to anyone, not even to Adam.  Genesis 50:20, Psalm 115:3, Proverbs 16:9, II Chron. 20:6, Isaiah 40:23, Zechariah 4:6 and Rom. 8:28-30   teach us about the fact that God is in control of the world.  There is no indication anywhere in the Bible, that God is not 100% in control.  Your view diminishes the sovereignty of God and makes man sovereign.   That is really bad theology.  It's where the erroneous "seed/faith"  doctrine comes from.

 

 

Deut. 28 is not the curse of the Law.    Those blessings and curses in Deut. 28 were conditional upon Israel's obedience of the whole Mosaic Law (Deut. 28:1).   Furthermore, God was not promises that the blessings in vv. 1-13 of Deut. 28 were going to be the experience of every person in Israel.   Deut. 28 references the general condition of the nation as a whole.   The blessings there are corporately promised to the nation, not promised to each individual Israelite.

 

Gal. 3:13 TELLS you where the curse of the law is found!   Paul references  Deut. 21:22-23 in that verse.  According to the passage Paul cites, the man hung on the tree is cursed by God.  To be "cursed by God"   is the worst possible outcome.  No eternal life, complete separation from God is the penalty for hanging on the tree.  This is  spiritual condition Jesus paid for on the cross.   Jesus death on the cross paid for our sins and purchased our redemption and we can be restored to right relationship and fellowship with God through Jesus' finished work on the cross.    Jesus, on the cross, redeemed us from the sentence of death that hung over the corporate head of humanity.  It is up to us to appropriate salvation from that curse, by placing our faith in Christ.

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

Hello Jim.

 

First of all, when Jesus told Paul,, "my grace is sufficient for you," he was not telling Paul, "you take care of this; you do it."  That is not what Jesus was saying to Paul, at all.  There is no way you can get that from the Greek.  Jesus was telling Paul that His grace was sufficient for Paul to bear the thorn he was suffering from.  Jesus was going to support Him and give him the strength and grace to continue on in spite of what He was suffering. Why?   Jesus said why. "My strength is made perfect in weakness."    Jesus was going to show His  power through Paul in spite of Paul's physical illness. This was so that Paul could not take any credit and no one would look at Paul as having the ability to continue preaching and ministering while suffering through something that would side line other people.   

 

The greatest testimonies are not miraculous healings.   The greatest testimonies are those who don't get healed, yet continue to serve God and continues to work through dear saints of God who battle the ill effects of an illness.   That's when God's power is seen the most.  It's when He doesn't fix everything, yet this person has a peace and a joy and that is inexplicable due to their circumstances.   They live above the circumstances, by faith and God's grace is sufficient for them just like it was sufficient for Paul.    As I said, Jesus is always enough, even if He doesn't fix everything and give us perfect health.   He has never promised perfect health for His followers.

 

You have made a grievous theological error when you say that God is not in control everything.   The Bible teaches that God is 100% (in control).   He permits things that he hates, but He is still in control.  God did not transfer any of His sovereignty to man.   God gave Adam  a limited form of authority or dominion over the works of His hands, but He did NOT surrender control of the universe to anyone, not even to Adam.  Genesis 50:20, Psalm 115:3, Proverbs 16:9, II Chron. 20:6, Isaiah 40:23, Zechariah 4:6 and Rom. 8:28-30   teach us about the fact that God is in control of the world.  There is no indication anywhere in the Bible, that God is not 100% in control.  Your view diminishes the sovereignty of God and makes man sovereign.   That is really bad theology.  It's where the erroneous "seed/faith"  doctrine comes from.

 

 

Deut. 28 is not the curse of the Law.    Those blessings and curses in Deut. 28 were conditional upon Israel's obedience of the whole Mosaic Law (Deut. 28:1).   Furthermore, God was not promises that the blessings in vv. 1-13 of Deut. 28 were going to be the experience of every person in Israel.   Deut. 28 references the general condition of the nation as a whole.   The blessings there are corporately promised to the nation, not promised to each individual Israelite.

 

Gal. 3:13 TELLS you where the curse of the law is found!   Paul references  Deut. 21:22-23 in that verse.  According to the passage Paul cites, the man hung on the tree is cursed by God.  To be "cursed by God"   is the worst possible outcome.  No eternal life, complete separation from God is the penalty for hanging on the tree.  This is  spiritual condition Jesus paid for on the cross.   Jesus death on the cross paid for our sins and purchased our redemption and we can be restored to right relationship and fellowship with God through Jesus' finished work on the cross.    Jesus, on the cross, redeemed us from the sentence of death that hung over the corporate head of humanity.  It is up to us to appropriate salvation from that curse, by placing our faith in Christ.

Siloh357 Thank you for your reply,

I will get back to this later today but wanted to take a minute now to thank you for replying.

Have a blessed day

Jim....

[Cturtle]

If you are claiming that we need to be walking in perfect healing and prosperity,  I would say that are mistaken.

 

 

The "curse of the Law"  in Gal. 3:13 refers to spiritual death and eternal separation from God.   That's what Jesus came to set us free from.  

 

There is no promise from God that followers of Jesus can or will walk in perfect health or will not suffer poverty.  The Word of Faith teachers claim that Jesus paid for healing and prosperity on the cross, but the Bible makes no such claims.

 

Funny how the apostle Paul, the man who taught us about faith, did not walk in perfect health, or prosperity.   Paul lists a number of things he had to suffer for the Gospel (II Cor. 11).  Paul was in prison in Philippi saying that he knows what it is like to be needy and what it is like to have plenty.  (Phil. 4:12)

 

Paul, in his ministry, had to suffer lack and poverty on many occasions.  He suffered an affliction that the Lord did not heal him from. 

 

None of take joy in being sick or being poor.   But no matter what, Jesus is always enough.   Nothing more to get.   We may seek healing, but even if we don't get healed, Jesus is enough.  I may live below the poverty line, but Jesus is enough.   He provides for every genuine need.   Even if I never own  a house or real estate, Jesus is enough.   I don't have much in this world, but if I have Jesus, I have enough.

 

God has used sickness for his glory.   It's not necessarily His perfect will that we get sick, but He permits and it is what He is willing to use to demonstrate his faithfulness when we have nothing else to do but trust him.

 

The question is, will you love Him and follow Him, even if he doesn't fix your problems?   Will you still love Him, if he doesn't intervene and heal you and fix your finances and make you wealthy?

Why yes i do love Him and follow Him even though He does not fix all of my problems immediately, but then i know well enough to ask Him what is it that i am doing wrong, because the Word of God is never wrong. And yes i do love Him and serve Him even though He is teaching us to totally rely on Him right now and i have to trust Him to provide even the simplest of things, and that i am living on a friends living room floor while i am waiting on Him to open up the doors to the ministry that He has birthed in our hearts. I even loved and praised Him when we had to dig in the dumptsters for the money to pay for toilet paper, and toothpaste, and praised Him when i found a pair of shoes, knowing that is how He was providing for me.

However i do believe that health and prosperity is part of what is included in our salvation, and that it is God's desire that we walk in those things. Not for our own selfishness, but so that as we are fully relying on God, giving Him the praise and glory for it all, and we are going about doing His Work with the extra. (2 Corinthians 9:7-15) There are scriptures all throughout the Bible that tell us as believers we are fellow heirs with Christ to THEE BLESSING of Abraham.

Blessings

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

Hello Jim.

 

First of all, when Jesus told Paul,, "my grace is sufficient for you," he was not telling Paul, "you take care of this; you do it."  That is not what Jesus was saying to Paul, at all.  There is no way you can get that from the Greek.  Jesus was telling Paul that His grace was sufficient for Paul to bear the thorn he was suffering from.  Jesus was going to support Him and give him the strength and grace to continue on in spite of what He was suffering. Why?   Jesus said why. "My strength is made perfect in weakness."    Jesus was going to show His  power through Paul in spite of Paul's physical illness. This was so that Paul could not take any credit and no one would look at Paul as having the ability to continue preaching and ministering while suffering through something that would side line other people.   

 

The greatest testimonies are not miraculous healings.   The greatest testimonies are those who don't get healed, yet continue to serve God and continues to work through dear saints of God who battle the ill effects of an illness.   That's when God's power is seen the most.  It's when He doesn't fix everything, yet this person has a peace and a joy and that is inexplicable due to their circumstances.   They live above the circumstances, by faith and God's grace is sufficient for them just like it was sufficient for Paul.    As I said, Jesus is always enough, even if He doesn't fix everything and give us perfect health.   He has never promised perfect health for His followers.

 

You have made a grievous theological error when you say that God is not in control everything.   The Bible teaches that God is 100% (in control).   He permits things that he hates, but He is still in control.  God did not transfer any of His sovereignty to man.   God gave Adam  a limited form of authority or dominion over the works of His hands, but He did NOT surrender control of the universe to anyone, not even to Adam.  Genesis 50:20, Psalm 115:3, Proverbs 16:9, II Chron. 20:6, Isaiah 40:23, Zechariah 4:6 and Rom. 8:28-30   teach us about the fact that God is in control of the world.  There is no indication anywhere in the Bible, that God is not 100% in control.  Your view diminishes the sovereignty of God and makes man sovereign.   That is really bad theology.  It's where the erroneous "seed/faith"  doctrine comes from.

 

 

Deut. 28 is not the curse of the Law.    Those blessings and curses in Deut. 28 were conditional upon Israel's obedience of the whole Mosaic Law (Deut. 28:1).   Furthermore, God was not promises that the blessings in vv. 1-13 of Deut. 28 were going to be the experience of every person in Israel.   Deut. 28 references the general condition of the nation as a whole.   The blessings there are corporately promised to the nation, not promised to each individual Israelite.

 

Gal. 3:13 TELLS you where the curse of the law is found!   Paul references  Deut. 21:22-23 in that verse.  According to the passage Paul cites, the man hung on the tree is cursed by God.  To be "cursed by God"   is the worst possible outcome.  No eternal life, complete separation from God is the penalty for hanging on the tree.  This is  spiritual condition Jesus paid for on the cross.   Jesus death on the cross paid for our sins and purchased our redemption and we can be restored to right relationship and fellowship with God through Jesus' finished work on the cross.    Jesus, on the cross, redeemed us from the sentence of death that hung over the corporate head of humanity.  It is up to us to appropriate salvation from that curse, by placing our faith in Christ.

Shiloh I am not trying to prove anything to you and you are free to believe any way you wish. I do not study the written word of God through ther eyes of theology. I simply take what the word says as truth. You tell me that in Deut. it was only for the Israelites and not for us and you take other scripture written to others and claim that is for us. Brother how can we pick and choose what is and what is not for us like that.

You say God is in total control of this world......If this were true we could not have the if's in His written word. If you do this then you will see these results and if you do that you will see those results BUT we do have them. You claim God permits things that He does hates and this is a good way to sweep things under the rug such as you never know what God is going to do or God giveth and God taketh away. This simply is not true. No one said God gave total control of anything to man i said He put some things in ther hand of man.

Your entire statement to me seems to limit God and say what ever happens must be His will for me.

I will believe what His wrod says and do what His word says I can do asnd that is settlerd for me and my house.

Blessings Shiloh

Jim

[Cturtle]

Hello Jim.

 

First of all, when Jesus told Paul,, "my grace is sufficient for you," he was not telling Paul, "you take care of this; you do it."  That is not what Jesus was saying to Paul, at all.  There is no way you can get that from the Greek.  Jesus was telling Paul that His grace was sufficient for Paul to bear the thorn he was suffering from.  Jesus was going to support Him and give him the strength and grace to continue on in spite of what He was suffering. Why?   Jesus said why. "My strength is made perfect in weakness."    Jesus was going to show His  power through Paul in spite of Paul's physical illness. This was so that Paul could not take any credit and no one would look at Paul as having the ability to continue preaching and ministering while suffering through something that would side line other people.   

 

The greatest testimonies are not miraculous healings.   The greatest testimonies are those who don't get healed, yet continue to serve God and continues to work through dear saints of God who battle the ill effects of an illness.   That's when God's power is seen the most.  It's when He doesn't fix everything, yet this person has a peace and a joy and that is inexplicable due to their circumstances.   They live above the circumstances, by faith and God's grace is sufficient for them just like it was sufficient for Paul.    As I said, Jesus is always enough, even if He doesn't fix everything and give us perfect health.   He has never promised perfect health for His followers.

 

You have made a grievous theological error when you say that God is not in control everything.   The Bible teaches that God is 100% (in control).   He permits things that he hates, but He is still in control.  God did not transfer any of His sovereignty to man.   God gave Adam  a limited form of authority or dominion over the works of His hands, but He did NOT surrender control of the universe to anyone, not even to Adam.  Genesis 50:20, Psalm 115:3, Proverbs 16:9, II Chron. 20:6, Isaiah 40:23, Zechariah 4:6 and Rom. 8:28-30   teach us about the fact that God is in control of the world.  There is no indication anywhere in the Bible, that God is not 100% in control.  Your view diminishes the sovereignty of God and makes man sovereign.   That is really bad theology.  It's where the erroneous "seed/faith"  doctrine comes from.

 

 

Deut. 28 is not the curse of the Law.    Those blessings and curses in Deut. 28 were conditional upon Israel's obedience of the whole Mosaic Law (Deut. 28:1).   Furthermore, God was not promises that the blessings in vv. 1-13 of Deut. 28 were going to be the experience of every person in Israel.   Deut. 28 references the general condition of the nation as a whole.   The blessings there are corporately promised to the nation, not promised to each individual Israelite.

 

Gal. 3:13 TELLS you where the curse of the law is found!   Paul references  Deut. 21:22-23 in that verse.  According to the passage Paul cites, the man hung on the tree is cursed by God.  To be "cursed by God"   is the worst possible outcome.  No eternal life, complete separation from God is the penalty for hanging on the tree.  This is  spiritual condition Jesus paid for on the cross.   Jesus death on the cross paid for our sins and purchased our redemption and we can be restored to right relationship and fellowship with God through Jesus' finished work on the cross.    Jesus, on the cross, redeemed us from the sentence of death that hung over the corporate head of humanity.  It is up to us to appropriate salvation from that curse, by placing our faith in Christ.

As i was praying today about your response and how to answer it, God gave me a few things....so i pray that you won't mind my giving what He showed me.

If one says that verse (2 Corinthians 12:9) "God's grace is sufficient for me" with the definitions of the words...it says that God's overwhelming desire to treat you and me as if sin never happened is strong enough for me. For God's ability is made complete (to bring to an end) in weakness. Most gladly therefore will i rather boast in my weakness, that the power of Christ (the anointed one or the anointing) may descend or rest upon me, working within me and giving me help.....So as Paul relied on God's power working within him, he was able to cast out that messenger of satan and get rid of it....but it was not in Paul's power, but in God's.

In Ps 8:5-6 David tells us that God has given us dominion over the earth. The earth was created for Adam to dwell in it. So maybe you could show us a couple of scriptures that say that God is in 100% control all of the time.

There are plenty of scriptures where God said if you will do this....I will do this, but if you disobey, you suffer the consequences. And even a handfull of times when God said it repents Him, that He did this or that...or Jesus wept at..... so i do believe that God soverignly decided to give us the choice more often than people realize.

In Deuteronomy 29:14-15 it says that God was making the covenant not only with them, but with future generations. And being that those of us who have accepted Jesus as Lord and savior, are told that we are joint heirs with Him in the promises of Abraham....i believe this applies to us to.

And in Deuteronomy 30:11-18 we see that every person is given a choice, and God desires for us to choose life...not death and curses. Two times in those verses God says "if" that means this stuff is conditional and subject to change.

2 Timothy 3:16 says that ALL scripture is God breathed or inspired by God...so one cannot just dismiss verses that say that we have choices and dominion. We have to take all of the verses in the Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal how they are applied. Seeking knowledge or wisdom (James 1:5) (not ours, but God's). Even when Jesus walked on this earth, He said that He only did what He saw His Father do, and said what He herd the Father say....and He never did anything under His own strength. And as 1 Peter 2:21 says...we are to follow in His (Jesus) example.

Blessings

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Jim,

 

Despite your claim not to study the Bible according to theology, that assertion is not true.   All of us, regardless who we are, study the Bible according to some kind of "theology."   There is good and bad theology, but all of us have a "theology" of the Bible, God, salvation, etc.

 

As for your question about Deuteronomy 28...    Please understand that not every part of the Bible is personally applicable.  It is 100% relevant in that in Deut. 28 we can glean biblical life lessons from it as we look at it in the light of the entire biblical revelation in Deuteronomy and how it fits with the rest of the Bible.   So while not always personally applicable, it is always relevant.   When you send a letter in the mail, the envelope has two addresses.   It as the address of the sender and the address of the receiver.   Every verse/passage of Scripture is like that.  It has an intended recipient and the address of the sender.    

 

Deuteronomy 28:1 begins,  "If you are faithful to observe all that the Lord your God has commanded you this day..."   Now, who is that written to???    Deuteronomy tells the Children of Israel that they cannot eat pork and shellfish.   Are Christians bound to observe that???   No.     The promises of Deuteronomy 28 are conditional upon the Israelites keeping the Law of Moses. 

 

So if you  want the promises of Deuteronomy 28, if your argument is that those promises are personally applicable to you, then you need to be internally consistent and accept the yoke of the Law of Moses that those promises are conditional upon.     Note ALSO that the second half of Deuteronomy also makes promises about what will happen if they do not keep the Law of Moses and promises a wide assortment curses an judgments to come upon them.   Do you accept those promises as well??  Do you eat pork?   Do you keep the Seventh Day Sabbath??    The promises of Deuteronomy were ONLY good IF Israel kept the Law.  Are you prepared to keep the Law in order to obtain those blessings???

 

The problem I have with Charismatic/Word of faith teaching is that it is very selective in how it approaches the Bible.   You want the blessings, but not the conditions those blessings are contingent upon.    God made a covenant with Israel and that covenant can only be applied to Israel.   We have to pay attention to address.   What belongs to Israel is for Israel, not for us.   If you want to personalize the blessings God promised then you have to also personalize the Laws those blessings are conditional upon AND  you have to also be willing to personalize and accept the curses promised for disobedience.   You can't have one without the other.   You can't pick and choose, as you say.  You can't claim the blessings, but claim the curses are not for you.

 

 

Now as for your denial of God's sovereignty....    The "ifs" found in Scripture do NOT mean that God surrendered some thing to our control.   Those  "ifs"  are conditions.   God said to Israel in Deut. 28, "if you are faithful to observe all that the Lord your God commands you this day..."    That doesn't mean that God isn't 100% control.   God is 100% or else He would not have the authority to issue such conditions.  It means that God is  control and your experience of His sovereign control will be determined by your obedience, or lack thereof.

 

God owns everything.  It is all His.  He controls it all.   God sets the boundaries and the Bible teaches that He upholds ALL things by the word of His power.  God sustains the created order and He micromanages it down to the very last atom.   God is not a passive observer, but is an active participant in everything that goes on in this world.   The problem here is that you seem to lack some understanding of the interplay between God's sovereignty and our free-will.   But then you wouldn't understand something like that because you don't study the Bible according to, "theology."

 

God has given to man some dominion in the earth, but that dominion is under God's dominion and under God's control.  God did not give control over to man.  He gave man authority in a limited sense, but He never gave man "sovereignty."    It's like when I was 6 years old and my grandfather let me "drive"  the tractor on his farm.  I sat in his lap, and put my hands on the steering wheel.  His hands were on the steering wheel too.  I drove it, but He was still in control.   It's the same with God.  We are not in "control"  of anything, ultimately.  God is 100% sovereign.   There are no gradients when it comes to sovereignty.  Sovereignty is always, "all or nothing."  No such thing as partial sovereignty.

 

I am not limiting God at all.  I am not presuming to say what God can or cannot do.   But I am saying that you are grabbing promises that are not made to the Church, that are conditional upon keeping the law of Moses and claiming them for yourself.   You are misapplying Scripture and taking for yourself, promises that are not yours.   Not everything in the Bible is for all people for all time.    I am not limiting God, but neither am I holding God accountable for promises He never made to me.

[Ezra]

He said that He only did what He saw His Father do, and said what He herd the Father say....and He never did anything under His own strength.

 

It would be more accurate and according to Scripture to say that Christ never did anything outside the will of the Father, than to say that He never did anything in His own strength.  Christ's strength is God's strength, because He is fully God. He commanded the waves to be still and He commanded the dead to rise.  At the same time, He volutarily made Himself the Servant of the Father while on earth and in His humiliation.

 

As to the discussion pertaining to Deuteronomy, none of that is directly applicable to Christians.  The New Covenant superseded the Old Covenant, and that is the end of the matter.  And it is not even relevant to the topic which is the life Jesus purchased for us under the Law of Liberty.

[Cturtle]

He said that He only did what He saw His Father do, and said what He herd the Father say....and He never did anything under His own strength.

 

It would be more accurate and according to Scripture to say that Christ never did anything outside the will of the Father, than to say that He never did anything in His own strength.  Christ's strength is God's strength, because He is fully God. He commanded the waves to be still and He commanded the dead to rise.  At the same time, He volutarily made Himself the Servant of the Father while on earth and in His humiliation.

 

As to the discussion pertaining to Deuteronomy, none of that is directly applicable to Christians.  The New Covenant superseded the Old Covenant, and that is the end of the matter.  And it is not even relevant to the topic which is the life Jesus purchased for us under the Law of Liberty.

Thank you very much for your opinion! Blessings to you

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

He said that He only did what He saw His Father do, and said what He herd the Father say....and He never did anything under His own strength.

 

It would be more accurate and according to Scripture to say that Christ never did anything outside the will of the Father, than to say that He never did anything in His own strength.  Christ's strength is God's strength, because He is fully God. He commanded the waves to be still and He commanded the dead to rise.  At the same time, He volutarily made Himself the Servant of the Father while on earth and in His humiliation.

 

As to the discussion pertaining to Deuteronomy, none of that is directly applicable to Christians.  The New Covenant superseded the Old Covenant, and that is the end of the matter.  And it is not even relevant to the topic which is the life Jesus purchased for us under the Law of Liberty.

Brother I will simply pray for you...

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi, cturtle.

 

There is nothing in the Bible that says that healing and prosperity are part of what Jesus did for us on the cross.  Nothing in the Bible says that God has promised healing to every believer.

 

God doesn't fix everything, just like He didn't heal Paul from his ailment.   God has a purpose in everything, even in the pain we endure.  If the healing and prosperity stuff were true, Paul would not have suffered from sickness, poverty, and all kinds of evil that is recorded in the Scriptures.

 

God's sovereignty doesn't mean we don't have free will or the freedom to choose.   It means that God is control and our choices and rebellion will not frustrate His sovereign plan for this world.

 

God is sovereign all of the time and all of the way.  There is no partial sovereignty.   God has never given any of the world to anyone else.  The Bible say, "The earth is the Lord's and fullness thereof."     It all belongs to Him.  Those who say that God lost part of that, are mistaken.