Shelak Posted June 12, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 21 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/14/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/08/1952 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Shelak, What bothers me is the emersion part. Maybe, he is referring to the Holy Spirit? Mark Hi Mark~~This fellow was a preacher from The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) They do believe that salvation is completed when one gets baptized by emersion. I was brought up in this church doctrine. Hopefully someone got more out of this than what bothered you , well .. thanks for acknowledging my post anyway. Shelak, no longer involved with this doctrine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted June 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I will repeat this endlessly: When one comes to Christ, they are changed. You do not belong to yourself - you have been bought with a price. You are His. And your new nature says, "AMEN, I AM HIS!" Of course. And you are correct Christ said He would lose none that are His that have been given to Him. Christ exists in the past, the present and the future, He knows who will have faith in the end, who will endure, who will run the race as Paul tells us, and actually finish. He also knows who will say to Him, but I was born again, but I believed in you, I caste out demons in your name, and reply to them, I never knew you. People are deluded about faith. This is the one place where works can help us, not to give us salvation, not to redeem us for the Lord, but to kick us in the stomach about our true condition, which without total repentance is totally lost and dead. Once again this is semantics, is a person who is going to stop believing in Christ as their Lord in the future, saved now if they really believe? It really makes no difference. I have heard people claim for themselves exactly what you are claiming above, and yet five or ten years later be totally different, they claim I AM HIS, they honestly thought they had true faith, then they walk away from it all, as the weeds and cares of this life, strangle their faith, just as in the parable. But, I do not worry about any of that, and neither should any of us. Christ has said that we are His, thus that is what we rely on, Christ, and not ourselves, nor out own weakness our own lives. Seems counter-intuitive doesn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 12, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 12, 2006 smalcald, Butero, & everyone, I will be gone for a few days working. Thank you for your input. You have given me some things to think about while painting. Butero, 1 Peter 1:23 is where I would like to begin when I come back, if you are interested. The verse does say that it is the seed that is incorruptible. Analyze the sentence structure if need be. Smalcald, I also believe that only God knows the true heart of a person whether they are saved or not and people can claim things that aren't true. I know what Scripture says and I have to stand by that. And as Luther states - "We are bags of dirt that God has chosen to bless." (A paraphrase for sure.) We are nothing and God is everything. He will succeed, and if we do, it is because of Him. See you guys soon, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted June 13, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2006 I will repeat this endlessly: When one comes to Christ, they are changed. You do not belong to yourself - you have been bought with a price. You are His. And your new nature says, "AMEN, I AM HIS!" Of course. And you are correct Christ said He would lose none that are His that have been given to Him. Christ exists in the past, the present and the future, He knows who will have faith in the end, who will endure, who will run the race as Paul tells us, and actually finish. He also knows who will say to Him, but I was born again, but I believed in you, I caste out demons in your name, and reply to them, I never knew you. People are deluded about faith. This is the one place where works can help us, not to give us salvation, not to redeem us for the Lord, but to kick us in the stomach about our true condition, which without total repentance is totally lost and dead. Once again this is semantics, is a person who is going to stop believing in Christ as their Lord in the future, saved now if they really believe? It really makes no difference. I have heard people claim for themselves exactly what you are claiming above, and yet five or ten years later be totally different, they claim I AM HIS, they honestly thought they had true faith, then they walk away from it all, as the weeds and cares of this life, strangle their faith, just as in the parable. But, I do not worry about any of that, and neither should any of us. Christ has said that we are His, thus that is what we rely on, Christ, and not ourselves, nor out own weakness our own lives. Seems counter-intuitive doesn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 13, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 13, 2006 I would like to address some common objections to the doctrine of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelak Posted June 13, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 21 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/14/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/08/1952 Share Posted June 13, 2006 (edited) MARK, AMEN AND AMEN! Shelak Edited June 13, 2006 by Shelak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 14, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 14, 2006 Hello Butero, Thanks for the acknowledgement. The accustaion that OSAS is a license to sin is very silly. The same can be said for people who believe that salvation can be lost and regained. You could go and sin and then repent. The argument is an invalid one. I do not know about the third possibility - a believer rejecting Christ. Maybe Smalcald or St. Worm can answer. Can a believer, after rejecting Christ and walking away, come back or are they gone for good. If they can't come back then this position has that as a strength - that once one rejects God they cannot come back- therefore, definately, there is not a motive to continue to sin. But, there isn't a possibility for continued practice of sin for OSAS. The logic of that position says that it is impossible - one who practices sin would be defined as an unbeliever. Those that believe they can lose their salvation and regain it has the weakest position because that would be the closest thing to having a license to sin. You could say, "man, I could really profit from stealing from this client. But, what will God think? Stealing is a sin. Well, I am going to do it, God will forgive me." or The man could steal from His client and then truly come to repentence and be forgiven. The same is true in both cases - sinning does not have a lasting consequence if repentive. OSAS, if true, doesn't have this possibility. Believers are changed and cannot keep on sinning willfully because of the presence of the Holy Spirit. (This doesn't mean Christians don't sin. It means they cannot practice sin. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 14, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 14, 2006 Shelak, It is an "AMEN" isn't it! SHE- LAKS nothing!! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 14, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 14, 2006 2thepoint, Good material. I agree with you, obvously. What I would develop more is the sense that we are not left alone after salvation. If it is possible to ignore God himself while all the time He is attached to our very being - then yes, the possibility exist that we can just lay down and die. But that isn't going to ever happen. God promises never to leave us. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted June 14, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 14, 2006 2thepoint, I posted the following on page 44 or something but got no response. What is your opinion? -------------- Exodus 29:31-35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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