Emmisal Posted June 27, 2015 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 4 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 27, 2015 It has never been in God's original agenda to inflict man with sickness. Sickness is as a result of man's fall and God is not responsible for that. So what's God's will? I'd say perfect health which is how He created the first man. It has never been God's will to inflict man with sickness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Justin, Still can't really answer the question;, can you?. Nice attempt at evading the question. Jesus could have healed everyone at the pool in a split second, but he didn't. Jesus was always doing the will of the Father and according to you it is always God's will to heal, so why wasn't it God's will to heal all those people at the pool? Jesus didn't always wait for someone to come to Him. At time he took the initiative himself and healed or delivered. Why not this time? John was relating a legend/myth that existed at the time. Angels don't heal, in Scripture. The Bible does not ever attribute redemptive qualities to angels. Only false teachers do that. Besides if it is God's will to heal everyone, why would God take something like healing and hold it out like carrot on a stick in such a manner??? The notion that God sends an angel to a pool to disturb the waters at a pool and then tells a bunch of invalids to jockey against each other to be the first in the pool 'cause only one is gonna get healed, doesn't fit God's character. God doesn't play games with people's hopes and needs like that. If you think it really was an angel doing that, you are really naïve and you have a warped view of God's character. You will also note that it is no an angel of the Lord that is being talked about. It is not unlike the modern heretics like Todd Bentley and others who teach falsely about angels and supposedly have encounters with angels. that never really agree with how the Bible describes people's encounters with angels. Which, by the way, defies the notion that John believes that this legend is true. In the Bible, Angels, presented themselves as emissaries from God and they were terrifying beings. They were not sweet little blond haired girls named "Emma" like Todd Bentley claims. Angels always had to preface their remarks with "fear not" because they were terrifying. That's what makes John's encounter with angels far different than the "angel" of the myth mentioned in John 5. If God was healing those people, they would not have been giving credit to an angel. God would share credit like that. Paul's thorn in the flesh was not persecution. Paul was persecuted long before he had that vision. The thorn Paul received was on account of that vision to keep him from being conceited about the visions. Paul's suffering and all of that pre-dated his vision. Paul mentions his persecution separate from the thorn in the flesh. He makes no connection between the two. In fact, it is likely that Paul suffered the effects of traumatic injuries he received from having been stoned and left for dead, as well as the beatings and floggings. He would not have been an impressive man to look at. But all of that was separate from the thorn in the flesh. This was something that he thought was hindering the scope of his ministry. Jesus denied the healing of that thorn. It was serving its purpose by making Paul completely dependent on Jesus. Paul's success was phenomenal, but the Lord didn't want Paul to be like the false apostles who he was addressing in II Corinthians. II Corinthians was written as a defense of Paul's apostleship and Paul is explaining that the very things his enemies saw as indicators of his failure as an apostle, were actually the very indicators of true calling as an apostle. Paul, had he not been truly called, would not have had the stamina to continue to minister in the midst of the firestorm of persecution he was receiving. The thorn in the flesh was keeping Paul from exalting himself and becoming arrogant and thinking he had superiority over others. Such pride would have been the undoing of his ministry. The thorn was a blessing not a curse, even though it was physically debilitating. Regarding Trophimus, Epaphroditus and Timothy.... I don't know why you would say there isn't enough information. They were all sick, they were all companions of Paul, and in each case, where Paul should have prayed for their healing and we should have seen instantaneous healings. Paul LEFT Trophimus while he was sick. Paul didn't make an attempt to heal Epaphroditus or Timothy when he knew they were ill. Epaphroditus did recover naturally from his illness, but why should he have had to wait for that when he could have gone to Pauls' jail cell and let Paul lay hands on him?? Why didn't Paul remind Timothy that he was healed by the stripes of Jesus instead of telling him to take medicinal wine?? It's not a matter of Paul being the standard or not. The problem is that you assume that every sick person that Paul and Jesus encountered got healed and that isn't the case. You are misapplying Hebrews 13:8. Hebrews 13:7-19 focuses on marks of the faithful believer in the context of the redeemed community. These include respect for godly leaders especially those who had passed away. It emphasizes that even though they are passed away they still possess a lasting influence over the congregation. This is a call to emulate their faith because their faith was fixed upon Jesus who also immutable and unchanging. Hebrews 13:8 is NOT saying that Jesus is under obligation to heal everyone in the same he did in during his earthly ministry. Jesus didn't heal every sick person he encountered. Jesus is under no obligation to operate today in the same manner he did during his earthly ministry. Jesus' healing ministry confirmed the truth of his message. Jesus was not the first person to claim to be the Messiah and it was his miracles that set him apart from previous men who had been thought to be the Messiah. Without those signs, his message would not have been taken seriously by anyone Isaiah 53:5 has in mind, spiritual restoration, not physical healing. Physical healing doesn't really fit. The word for healing used there, rophei carries the connotation of restoration, which is one aspect of salvation. It can mean healing in other contexts, but the object of restoration is a corporate people in need of being restored spiritually to God which is what the cross is all about. Again, you are grabbing verses like Ps. 103:1-3 and running with it in way that is not meant by he author. If you took the rest of chapter and applied the same sloppy exegesis to it, God is promising that we will never die. Besides, is talking about soul, not the body and these are diseases of the soul he has in mind. "Forgiveth all thine iniquities" and "Healeth all thy diseases, is Hebrew parallelism. It's two ways of saying the same thing. The context is not about physical healing but spiritual healing. "All the promises of God are yes and amen..." (II Cor. 1:20) I am always amused at how people like you always rip things out of context. In II Cor. 1 Paul is responding to criticism by the Corinthians that he is inconsistent and fickle in regarding his plans to come and visit them, and this is used to assault his integrity and consistency. It is a petty accusation that Paul is addressing. Paul points to the preaching of Silvanus and Timothy and that they knew God's faithfulness through not only their preaching but also his preaching and that his message was consistent with the message of Christ they heard from Silvanus and Timothy. When Paul is talking about the promises of God and faithfulness of Jesus being Yes and Amen he is talking about consistency. Yes and Amen vs. Yes and No. Paul's point is not that we will always receive every promise made by God. Not every promise made by God is for all people for all time. Paul's point has to do with the "Yes" and "Amen," or the consistent faithfulness of message he preached and thus his integrity in preaching the message. God's faithfulness through Jesus was preached by Paul consistently and the consistency of Paul's message ensured the consistent nature of his character and actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Retro, No your theology is incoherent. In one breath you claim that if we prayed like Elijah all of us would have the same results Elijah's prayers had. But then in another breath you agree with me that God doesn't always heal. So it is hard for me to know exactly where you are landing in all of this. There is no doctrine of miracles and simply pointing to the gifts of spirit doesn't count as a doctrine of miracles. What I mean is that the Bible doesn't teach on miracles in the same way it does on what we know to be established biblical doctrines like Justification by faith, the Deity of Jesus, Salvation, etc. I Corinthians 12-14 is not teaching about the spiritual gifts, per se. It is a correction of the abuses of the gifts by the church. It doesn't possess the character of biblical doctrine Doctrine is different because biblical doctrine shows up in multiple epistles. Doctrine pertains to the teachings and principles that form the foundation of practical Christian living. There is nothing like that in the Bible connected to healing or any other miracle. As to whether or not I can be taught, yes I can and I have a multitude of good teachers. Just because I don't receive your less than impressive approach to Scripture doesn't mean I can't be taught. I am not going to be taught by someone like you who has presumed himself to be my teacher. I know what I believe and why and I am not swayed by what you say. So far, you haven't done much except rant and post online novels for me to read. My point all along has been that Jesus did miracles to confirm his message and identity as both God and Messiah. I am glad we agree on that. As for why Jesus didn't do any miracles in Nazareth... It wasn't because it was impossible for him. Jesus could have performed any number of miracles and he isn't limited by our lack of faith. Jesus is God and he doesn't need our faith to do what he pleases. Jesus' limitation was self-imposed. No one prevented him from doing any miracles, but they rejected him and he sovereignly chose not to do any miracles for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Emmissal, No one is claiming that God wants to afflict people with diseases or that God is actively desiring that people be sick. But sickness and disease, terminal illnesses are what God is willing to use in a broken world for his purposes. We may not understand that, but its true. Perfect health will not known to us until the millennial reign of Christ where many of the conditions prior to the fall including extremely long life will be restored. When we receive our glorified bodies, we will never know sickness again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Believer112, God does not heal 100% of the time. Nor is God's power limited by us or by Satan. There is no way a human being or Satan can have any limiting effect on an all-powerful God. God is sovereign and he does as he pleases in the earth and you have no power and Satan has no power to prevent God from doing what he wants to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted June 30, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Justin, Still can't really answer the question;, can you?. Nice attempt at evading the question. Jesus could have healed everyone at the pool in a split second, but he didn't. Jesus was always doing the will of the Father and according to you it is always God's will to heal, so why wasn't it God's will to heal all those people at the pool? Jesus didn't always wait for someone to come to Him. At time he took the initiative himself and healed or delivered. Why not this time? I got confused with this topic because your replying to my answers but to Justin... I did actually. Jesus didn't want to increase persecution or be hailed as King before His time. That is why he healed some people and said, "tell no one" I also believe that Jesus didn't just heal to prove His message but He was moved with compassion. John was relating a legend/myth that existed at the time. Angels don't heal, in Scripture. The Bible does not ever attribute redemptive qualities to angels. Only false teachers do that. Besides if it is God's will to heal everyone, why would God take something like healing and hold it out like carrot on a stick in such a manner??? The notion that God sends an angel to a pool to disturb the waters at a pool and then tells a bunch of invalids to jockey against each other to be the first in the pool 'cause only one is gonna get healed, doesn't fit God's character. God doesn't play games with people's hopes and needs like that. If you think it really was an angel doing that, you are really naïve and you have a warped view of God's character. You will also note that it is no an angel of the Lord that is being talked about. It is not unlike the modern heretics like Todd Bentley and others who teach falsely about angels and supposedly have encounters with angels. that never really agree with how the Bible describes people's encounters with angels. Which, by the way, defies the notion that John believes that this legend is true. In the Bible, Angels, presented themselves as emissaries from God and they were terrifying beings. They were not sweet little blond haired girls named "Emma" like Todd Bentley claims. Angels always had to preface their remarks with "fear not" because they were terrifying. That's what makes John's encounter with angels far different than the "angel" of the myth mentioned in John 5. If God was healing those people, they would not have been giving credit to an angel. God would share credit like that. I'm not debating about Todd Bentley or even trying to make personal claims of angels. What is in the text is angel stirred the water and who ever went in got healed. The bible never specifies that was a myth so I'm not going to. We do have a God who made a donkey speak, spit in a blind mans eyes to heal him, etc. I don't think the against God's nature to heal this way. Regardless if it's 1 or 100, it's still an act of mercy. Do angels heal? According to this verse, yes. Paul's thorn in the flesh was not persecution. Paul was persecuted long before he had that vision. The thorn Paul received was on account of that vision to keep him from being conceited about the visions. Paul's suffering and all of that pre-dated his vision. Paul mentions his persecution separate from the thorn in the flesh. He makes no connection between the two. In fact, it is likely that Paul suffered the effects of traumatic injuries he received from having been stoned and left for dead, as well as the beatings and floggings. He would not have been an impressive man to look at. But all of that was separate from the thorn in the flesh. This was something that he thought was hindering the scope of his ministry. Jesus denied the healing of that thorn. It was serving its purpose by making Paul completely dependent on Jesus. Paul's success was phenomenal, but the Lord didn't want Paul to be like the false apostles who he was addressing in II Corinthians. II Corinthians was written as a defense of Paul's apostleship and Paul is explaining that the very things his enemies saw as indicators of his failure as an apostle, were actually the very indicators of true calling as an apostle. Paul, had he not been truly called, would not have had the stamina to continue to minister in the midst of the firestorm of persecution he was receiving. The thorn in the flesh was keeping Paul from exalting himself and becoming arrogant and thinking he had superiority over others. Such pride would have been the undoing of his ministry. The thorn was a blessing not a curse, even though it was physically debilitating. Paul used the words "boast in my Infirmity" to describe persecution and tribulation and then said the same thing reguarding the thorn in his flesh. He no where clarifies that it was a physical sickness and was still in the context of persecution. I do agree it was for the purpose of taking in in a greater dependance on God. Regarding Trophimus, Epaphroditus and Timothy.... I don't know why you would say there isn't enough information. They were all sick, they were all companions of Paul, and in each case, where Paul should have prayed for their healing and we should have seen instantaneous healings. Paul LEFT Trophimus while he was sick. Paul didn't make an attempt to heal Epaphroditus or Timothy when he knew they were ill. Epaphroditus did recover naturally from his illness, but why should he have had to wait for that when he could have gone to Pauls' jail cell and let Paul lay hands on him?? Why didn't Paul remind Timothy that he was healed by the stripes of Jesus instead of telling him to take medicinal wine?? It's not a matter of Paul being the standard or not. The problem is that you assume that every sick person that Paul and Jesus encountered got healed and that isn't the case. So, in another thread you said that Jesus healing the demonized boy the disciples couldn't cast out and answering they couldn't cast it out because of their unbelief should not be taken as doctrine(Matthew 17:14-21), but the lite mention of someone being sick in passing should be made doctrine? Stick to your own standards. I'm not assuming every sick person Paul prayed for got healed, I do know everyone in the Gospels who cried out Jesus to heal them got healed. Jesus is the standard, We're all growing into His fullness, not Paul's. The Father is clearly seen in the Son. Our God hasn't changed. He is still moved with compassion for the sick, He is still the healer. I'm also not opposed to medicine and doctors, I believe God uses them. I remember a testimonies from Heidi and Rolland Baker. There was a girl who was blind and needed a specific expensive surgery to see. They prayed and prayed and nothing happened, but God miraculously provided the money she needed to get the surgery. Ephesians 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; You are misapplying Hebrews 13:8. Hebrews 13:7-19 focuses on marks of the faithful believer in the context of the redeemed community. These include respect for godly leaders especially those who had passed away. It emphasizes that even though they are passed away they still possess a lasting influence over the congregation. This is a call to emulate their faith because their faith was fixed upon Jesus who also immutable and unchanging. Hebrews 13:8 is NOT saying that Jesus is under obligation to heal everyone in the same he did in during his earthly ministry. Jesus didn't heal every sick person he encountered. Jesus is under no obligation to operate today in the same manner he did during his earthly ministry. Jesus' healing ministry confirmed the truth of his message. Jesus was not the first person to claim to be the Messiah and it was his miracles that set him apart from previous men who had been thought to be the Messiah. Without those signs, his message would not have been taken seriously by anyone Awesome, we agree how needed those signs are today. Jesus is the Messiah today, His Miracles still set Him apart from other gods. He is the same God in the Holy Spirit as He was in the flesh. Perhaps that is why Paul chose to be dependent on His power to witness rather than his wise apologetics. 1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Isaiah 53:5 has in mind, spiritual restoration, not physical healing. Physical healing doesn't really fit. The word for healing used there, rophei carries the connotation of restoration, which is one aspect of salvation. It can mean healing in other contexts, but the object of restoration is a corporate people in need of being restored spiritually to God which is what the cross is all about. Again, you are grabbing verses like Ps. 103:1-3 and running with it in way that is not meant by he author. If you took the rest of chapter and applied the same sloppy exegesis to it, God is promising that we will never die. Besides, is talking about soul, not the body and these are diseases of the soul he has in mind. "Forgiveth all thine iniquities" and "Healeth all thy diseases, is Hebrew parallelism. It's two ways of saying the same thing. The context is not about physical healing but spiritual healing. Ps. 103:1-3 The word for diseases, tachălû' tachălû' is used to describe literal sickness and disease in every place that it's used in the bible. There is nothing in the text saying it's "only spiritual" Deuteronomy 29:22 so that the coming generation of your children who rise up after you, and the foreigner who comes from a far land, would say, when they see the plagues of that land and the sicknesses which the Lord has laid on it: 2 Chronicles 21:19 Then it happened in the course of time, after the end of two years, that his intestines came out because of his sickness; so he died in severe pain. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning for his fathers. Jeremiah 14:If I go out to the field, Then behold, those slain with the sword! And if I enter the city, Then behold, those sick from famine! Yes, both prophet and priest go about in a land they do not know.’” Isaiah 53:5 the word heal refers to Wholistic healing, body, soul, and spirit. Strongs aw-faw', raw-faw' A primitive root; properly to mend (by stitching), that is, (figuratively) to cure: - cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. You can make it only spiritual, but it means so much more than that. In Jesus we are made whole, He is concerned with our well being and He paid the price for us to be made whole, healed, delivered, set free. Your argument really isn't about what the text says but your experience of seeing people believing and not receiving. The promises of God are yes and amen in Christ Jesus. "All the promises of God are yes and amen..." (II Cor. 1:20) I am always amused at how people like you always rip things out of context. In II Cor. 1 Paul is responding to criticism by the Corinthians that he is inconsistent and fickle in regarding his plans to come and visit them, and this is used to assault his integrity and consistency. It is a petty accusation that Paul is addressing. Paul points to the preaching of Silvanus and Timothy and that they knew God's faithfulness through not only their preaching but also his preaching and that his message was consistent with the message of Christ they heard from Silvanus and Timothy. When Paul is talking about the promises of God and faithfulness of Jesus being Yes and Amen he is talking about consistency. Yes and Amen vs. Yes and No. Paul's point is not that we will always receive every promise made by God. Not every promise made by God is for all people for all time. Paul's point has to do with the "Yes" and "Amen," or the consistent faithfulness of message he preached and thus his integrity in preaching the message. God's faithfulness through Jesus was preached by Paul consistently and the consistency of Paul's message ensured the consistent nature of his character and actions. He is refering to his consistancy in being like Christ, but points to a greater principle. That all the promises of God are yes and amen in Christ. What God promises He fulfills through Christ. Paul was modeling that in his actions and considered the promises manifesting through them to the glory of God in Verse 20. He has also given us His Spirit as a guarantee that all His promises will come to pass, this is so much more than just healing this is pointing to all the promises of God and our access to them through Christ Jesus. All the promises of God are yes and amen in Christ Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted June 30, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Emmissal, No one is claiming that God wants to afflict people with diseases or that God is actively desiring that people be sick. But sickness and disease, terminal illnesses are what God is willing to use in a broken world for his purposes. We may not understand that, but its true. Perfect health will not known to us until the millennial reign of Christ where many of the conditions prior to the fall including extremely long life will be restored. When we receive our glorified bodies, we will never know sickness again. When that which has perfect as come... The preaching of the Gospel includes a demonstration of this Kingdom that is coming. There is no sickness under Christs reign, we get to show the world a God who takes away sickness, we are known by God and each other in this Kingdom coming, we get to show the world that God knows and loves them. The gifts of the Spirit are "the powers of the age to come." That we get to show the world what His rule and Reign looks like. He also never set a limit on how much we can access in Christ Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 30, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 274 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,330 Content Per Day: 3.48 Reputation: 8,570 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hi Shiloh357, We, the Body of Christ do not reign on this earth in the Millennium, nor is there perfect health there. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted June 30, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hi Shiloh357, We, the Body of Christ do not reign on this earth in the Millennium, nor is there perfect health there. Marilyn. This is not the truth from the word of God. The word teaches that we, the redeemed will rule and reign with Christ on Earth for 1000 years! We will not be subject to disease because we will be in our glorified state, yet the mortal nations we will be governing will also be living extended lifespans of peace and wellness, although there will be death (Isaiah 65:20,22 and also Jeremiah 31:29-30) Isaiah 65:18-25 Be glad; rejoice forever in my creation! And look! I will create Jerusalem as a place of happiness. Her people will be a source of joy.19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and delight in my people. And the sound of weeping and crying will be heard in it no more. 20 “No longer will babies die when only a few days old. No longer will adults die before they have lived a full life. No longer will people be considered old at one hundred! Only the cursed will die that young!21 In those days people will live in the houses they build and eat the fruit of their own vineyards.22 Unlike the past, invaders will not take their houses and confiscate their vineyards. For my people will live as long as trees, and my chosen ones will have time to enjoy their hard-won gains.23 They will not work in vain, and their children will not be doomed to misfortune. For they are people blessed by the Lord, and their children, too, will be blessed.24 I will answer them before they even call to me. While they are still talking about their needs, I will go ahead and answer their prayers!25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together. The lion will eat hay like a cow. But the snakes will eat dust. In those days no one will be hurt or destroyed on my holy mountain. I, the Lord, have spoken!” Isaiah 33:24 The people of Israel will no longer say, “We are sick and helpless,” for the Lord will forgive their sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted June 30, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Believer112, God does not heal 100% of the time. Nor is God's power limited by us or by Satan. There is no way a human being or Satan can have any limiting effect on an all-powerful God. God is sovereign and he does as he pleases in the earth and you have no power and Satan has no power to prevent God from doing what he wants to do. The will of man can easily thwart the plans of God for the person who wields it. Look what a person who says no to salvation can do to himself eternally! God certainly doesn't will it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts