Pamelasv Posted June 6, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 132 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 582 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/24/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/21/1969 Share Posted June 6, 2015 This is something that always bothers me. How has it been determined that Paul was the one who was caught up into heaven? When he says he will boast about a man like that but not of himself. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted June 6, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 6, 2015 This is something that always bothers me. How has it been determined that Paul was the one who was caught up into heaven? When he says he will boast about a man like that but not of himself. ?? Paul was simply saying that he really did not want to boast about himself, but since his apostleship was being challenged, he would mention the person (himself) who went to Heaven and returned to earth. He is metaphorically dissociating himself from the one who visited Heaven, but it is quite clear that it is Paul himself (2 Cor 12:5-7). He goes on to say that because this experience might make him proud, he was given a thorn in the flesh (which is interpreted is various ways). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted June 6, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted June 6, 2015 This is something that always bothers me. How has it been determined that Paul was the one who was caught up into heaven? When he says he will boast about a man like that but not of himself. ?? I always wondered that, it could have been Paul but I don't see it in the text, or John considering He had the vision of Revelation, perhaps he had visions often. It also could have been just a regular believer, someone not mentioned in scripture. 2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 People like to just guess about things like that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew T. Posted June 6, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 481 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 537 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/20/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/08/1959 Share Posted June 6, 2015 (edited) You can ask yourself some obvious questions. It is clear that Paul knew of SOMEONE that had went up to the third heaven. If it were someone else, why would he have a problem with identification? He clearly said that he WOULD BOAST of such a man. How did he know exactly where this person went? How is it that he (Paul) came to understand the gospel so clearly and perfectly when all other disciples struggled with separating the issues? Paul said he would not brag about himself, but he would brag that "the man" was caught up and had that experience. He was wanting the experience to be validated without being prideful by making it all about "him". A guess? 2Cor. 12 5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. 6 For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me. Seems clear enough to me? I think Paul was wanting to recognize that God was using him in a mighty, mighty way because he was being challenged. And he was also wanting to express personal humility. He didn't want to appear to be a bragger. But there's nothing wrong with everyone drawing their own conclusions. This isn't a salvation issue, even peripherally. Edited June 6, 2015 by Matthew T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted June 6, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 6, 2015 People like to just guess about things like that... There's no guesswork here. Paul connects his visit to Heaven with his thorn in the flesh. The entire chapter should be read as a whole, and even the first verse tells us whom is is talking about and that he is trying to avoid being boastful. It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. [Whose visions and revelations other than his own?] Then he says this (v.6) For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 It's pretty clear that Paul is talking about himself. It is not a guess. Why would Paul receive a thorn in the flesh because of the vision if he wasn't the one who had the vision? Why would Paul be afflicted on account of someone else's vision? Why would Paul need to kept from being conceited about a vision he didn't have??? I mean, c'mon.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted June 7, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted June 7, 2015 Paul And John Weren't The Only Ones In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Isaiah 6:1-5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 I've heard many suggest that Paul was writing this in the "third-person". If that were true, he was trying to conceal the fact that it was indeed himself that he was referring to. So to deduce that he was talking about himself would still be guesswork because he concealed the "man's" identity. It seems proper to me to read it as written and that he was referring to a man that he knew and draw no other conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 That doesn't make any sense. Again, if it was someone else, then why was Paul afflicted on account of the vision??? It is obviously Paul. No guesswork needed. In fact, if it happened to someone else there would be no reason for Paul to refrain from boasting. Refraining from boasting about a vision he never had is rather pointless. All of the details of the story indicate it is a personal experience that Paul had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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