Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[luigi]

7 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

So are you one who makes no distinction between the Great Tribulation and the Day of God's Wrath?

Did you not read my post that you responded to prior to your last response? I copy pasted it again below. And Yes, in my post I do make a distinction between the Great Tribulation and the Day of God's Wrath on the beasts worshippers. It was detailed in the post below. First killed during the tribulation and harvested are the righteous. Second killed, is when God's Wrath is enacted upon the beasts worshippers, and are harvested later.

Revelation 13:10 ; 14:12; where the saints endure and are killed during the reign of the beast indicates their experiencing tribulation. Likewise, the first reaping of the earth in Revelation 14:13-16, are the righteous, after experiencing this tribulation, while the 2nd reaping of the earth in Revelation 14:17-20 are the unrighteous who experience the wrath of God (Revelation 14:19). 

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[WilliamL]

4 minutes ago, luigi said:

Did you not read my post that you responded to prior to your last response? I copy pasted it again below. And Yes, in my post I do make a distinction between the Great Tribulation and the Day of God's Wrath on the beasts worshippers. It was detailed in the post below. First killed during the tribulation and harvested are the righteous. Second killed, is when God's Wrath is enacted upon the beasts worshippers, and are harvested later.

Revelation 13:10 ; 14:12; where the saints endure and are killed during the reign of the beast indicates their experiencing tribulation. Likewise, the first reaping of the earth in Revelation 14:13-16, are the righteous, after experiencing this tribulation, while the 2nd reaping of the earth in Revelation 14:17-20 are the unrighteous who experience the wrath of God (Revelation 14:19). 

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

Thanks for the reminder, I didn't catch the distinction you made.

Problem is, the events in the verses you quoted all take place after the rapture, which occurs at the close of the Great Tribulation, well before the Beast ever comes on the scene.

We see those who have been raptured in Revelation 7

7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, ... 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones having come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The Beast shall "ascend out of the Abyss" (11;7; 17:8), which is not opened until the 5th Trumpet (9:1-2); well after the events of Rev. 7.

[luigi]

6 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Thanks for the reminder, I didn't catch the distinction you made.

Problem is, the events in the verses you quoted all take place after the rapture, which occurs at the close of the Great Tribulation, well before the Beast ever comes on the scene.

We see those who have been raptured in Revelation 7

7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, ... 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones having come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The Beast shall "ascend out of the Abyss" (11;7; 17:8), which is not opened until the 5th Trumpet (9:1-2); well after the events of Rev. 7.

Did you not read the scriptures (Revelation 13:10 & 14:12) I posted, in which the patience of the saints is being tested, while they are persecuted and being killed during the beasts reign?

I also copy pasted below, a response I made to another topic here about the duration of the beasts reign, which I believe further supports the tribulation period of the saints.

COPY PASTE:

The abomination who brings about desolations in Daniel 9:27, is the same little horn in Daniel 7 & 8 & 11, who brings about desolations. This individual (the abomination/transgression of desolation), the Lord also speaks of in the Olivet discourse, that when he appears in Jerusalem, the saints throughout the world will have already been experiencing great tribulation, even being put to death.

If you then realize that the abomination of desolation, who is the little horn, is associated with the beast who will be allowed to reign for forty two months (3.5 times), (in both Daniel 7 and Revelation 13);---the time then preceding these final forty two months in which the saints are experiencing great tribulation and death, would have to represent an additional period of time prior to the final forty two months.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

 

 

Edited April 4 by luigi

[WilliamL]

1 minute ago, luigi said:

Did you not read the scriptures (Revelation 13:10 & 14:12) I posted, in which the patience of the saints is being tested, while they are persecuted and being killed during the beasts reign?

Yes I did, and responded that these are post-rapture believers. Per the following prophecy:

Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look upon Me whom they pierced, and they will mourn over Him as one mourns over his only son, and grieve over Him as one grieves over a firstborn.

Such as these are the post-trib saints who come to the faith when they see Jesus at His Parousia. But they must then live (and some die) during the time of the Wrath, which is going on in the time of the scriptures you posted.

[luigi]

32 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Yes I did, and responded that these are post-rapture believers. Per the following prophecy:

Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look upon Me whom they pierced, and they will mourn over Him as one mourns over his only son, and grieve over Him as one grieves over a firstborn.

Such as these are the post-trib saints who come to the faith when they see Jesus at His Parousia. But they must then live (and some die) during the time of the Wrath, which is going on in the time of the scriptures you posted.

Unlike yourself and other pre tribbers WilliamL, I see when the Lord returns with His reward for the saints as a one time event, at which time also the Lords Wrath commences upon the beasts worshippers (Revelation 11:18). The rewarding of the saints is when the Lord returns like a thief, and provides the saints with great illumination, while at the same time removing His direct illumination from the beasts worshippers, leaving them in gross darkness. (Isaiah 60:1-3). Zechariah 12:10, where the Lord pours out a Spirit of grace and supplication upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, upon whom they pierced..." would therefore have to precede when the Lord returns in Revelation 11:18, with His reward, and with His wrath for the beasts worshippers. {Revelation chapter 12 commences in retrospect prior to the beasts ascension.} {Revelation 13, where the beast rises from the sea, is another description of the beast who rises from the bottomless pit in Revelation 9.}

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. 2  For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Edited April 4 by luigi

[WilliamL]

8 minutes ago, luigi said:

Unlike yourself and other pre tribbers

False accusation; I have always taught pre-wrath here.

9 minutes ago, luigi said:

the Lords Wrath commences upon the beasts worshippers

The time of the Wrath commences at the 6th Seal: "the great day of His Wrath is come/came." 6:17

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath..." 1 Thes. 5:9 God's elect of the Church will be raptured at the Parousia, which takes place at the 6th Seal. The Beast does not come onto the scene until later.

 

 

[WilliamL]

Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib Summary

What takes place during the first five Seals of Revelation 6 is the same sequence of events prophesied in Matthew 24:5-14: 1) false messiahs and prophets, 2) internecine wars, 3) food scarcity and famine, 4) earthquakes and other chaotic events, and 5) persecution of believers.

Some believers will be killed during this time of the Great Tribulation: these are the saints of the 5th Seal "slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held." Rev. 6:9 = Matt. 24:9

Then comes the 6th Seal's heavenly and earthly cataclysms = Matt. 24:29, which come "immediately after the Tribulation."

Then comes Christ in the clouds to gather up his elect = the Rapture, while being seen by every eye (Rev. 1:7), which causes all the unbelievers to mourn, and to flee and hide in fear. Matt. 24:30-31; Rev. 1:7, 6:15-17; Is. 2:10-11, 19-21

At that time, after the Rapture of the Church and during the unbelievers' fear, the Great Tribulation has been completed, and "the great day of [God's] wrath came/has come." Rev. 6:17. But "God did not appoint us [the elect] to [His] Wrath" (1 Thes. 5:9), so we've been taken outta here just before. [A great deception is promoted by those who teach that the Tribulation and the Wrath are the same thing: Scripture makes a clear distinction between the two.]

Now at this same time, there is a third group, those of Israel who also see Jesus in the clouds, realize that he is their Messiah "whom they pierced," and therefore demonstrate their repentance and faith in him when they "mourn for him like one mourns for his only son." Zech. 12:10ff.

The very next event is Rev. 7:1-8, which continues on from the earthly perspective of Rev. 6, and tells us of the 144,000 Israelites who are sanctified/sealed in their foreheads "on the earth." Who are these but repentant Israelites of Zech. 12:10? For them, it is too late to be raptured, because they were not among "those who were ready" when the Bridegroom came. Matt. 25:10

Then John's view is shifted to heaven, and he is shown 'those who came out of the Great Tribulation' (Rev. 7:14), being those just raptured, "standing before the throne and the before the Lamb, clothed with white robes." Rev. 7:9 These fulfill the promise of Luke 21:36: "Watch, therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [of the Great Tribulation] and to stand before the Son of Man."

Revelation 8 - 19 then tell us what will come upon all who were not ready for the Bridegroom: they must go through the time of God's Wrath, which includes both the Trumpets and Bowls, during which there will be believers on earth who will be martyred by the Beast. They will arise in the Rev. 20:4 resurrection, after Christ has descended to earth (Rev. 19) and defeated the Beast and kings of the earth.

[luigi]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

False accusation; I have always taught pre-wrath here.

The time of the Wrath commences at the 6th Seal: "the great day of His Wrath is come/came." 6:17

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath..." 1 Thes. 5:9 God's elect of the Church will be raptured at the Parousia, which takes place at the 6th Seal. The Beast does not come onto the scene until later.

 

 

Have you ever seen a Fellini film, or the movie Pulp Fiction? These movies (and others), show scenes at a future point in the film, and then return in retrospect to an earlier time to the event previously shown. So too does the book of Revelation, the book of Isaiah, and other books in the bible often describe a series of events, and then return to an earlier point prior to the events just elaborated.

Yes, in Revelation 6:16-17 we see the worlds unjust peoples hiding themselves from the presence of the Lord, expecting the Lords wrath to come upon them. In the following chapter 7, we then see the myriads of saints who have gone through great tribulation and been killed, who are now in heaven. At this point, Revelation chapter 8, goes into retrospect explaining the events leading to the events aforementioned. We see 1/3 of earth's environmental resources destroyed, which Revelation 9:20 attributes to the love mankind has for the things his hands make. Prior to commencing Revelation chapter 9, an angel in midheaven declares with a loud voice: Woe, Woe, Woe; by reason of the last three angels warning blasts (Revelation 8:13), thereby indicating the last three woes, far worse than the first four plagues in which 1/3 of earths environment is destroyed. We then see in chapter 9 the opening of the bottomless pit, from which according to the angel in Revelation 17:8, the beast shall rise from. In Revelation 10:7, we then see the saints becoming fully aware of Gods mystery, related with all these events. We now enter chapter 11, and see the two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem for forty two months, and at the end of their 42 months of testifying, are then killed by the beast who ascends from the bottomless pit (Revelation 11:7). Shortly thereafter, the beasts forty two month reign likewise comes to it conclusion, and the Lord commences to reign (Revelation 11:15). [By the way, notice the correlation here with when the 7th angel sounds and the Lord commences to reign, is also when the saints become aware of the mystery of God in Revelation 10:7. Prior to the Lord commencing to reign at the conclusion of the beasts reign, the mystery of God was still a mystery during the forty two months of the two witnesses, and those of the beast.] Upon the Lords return, He commences to reward all his saints, along with everyone who believes in right; while at the same time He commences His wrath upon the unjust masses of the world (Revelation 11:18). Notice the correlation with the conclusion of the beasts 42 month reign where Gods wrath commences upon the unjust and Revelation 6:16-17? At this point, in Revelation 12, we commence again in retrospect at a point prior to the beasts ascension, where we see the devil and his angels cast out into the earth (Revelation 12:9). The devil then vests the beast with his power, his seat, and great authority (Revelation 13:2), thereby causing the beast to rise from the sea (Revelation 13:1). Do you notice the correlation with the angel of the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:11, who is the fallen star who opens the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:1-2), thereby empowering the beast to ascend from the bottomless pit? It is another metaphorical description for the sea from which the beast ascends. Also notice the correlation of the fallen star/the angel of the bottomless pit, Apollyon/Absalom which translates to "the destroyer", aka the dragon in Revelation 12 & 13, who brings about great woe to all living things on earth (Revelation 12:12). Also notice the correlations with the great three final great woes declared loudly by the angel flying in heavens midst in Revelation 8:13?

Sorry for how long this was, but it was necessary to show all these correlations in order to emphasize the retrospective manner in which much of the bible describes many events.

 

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

 

[luigi]

I'm kinda blitz after my last post. Back tomorrow. 

[Montana Marv]

23 hours ago, WilliamL said:

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath..." 1 Thes. 5:9 God's elect of the Church will be raptured at the Parousia, which takes place at the 6th Seal. The Beast does not come onto the scene until later.

This verse was valid to Paul at his time of writing.  1st century Church to 21th century Church; this is the "us": all of whom have not been appointed to wrath.

In Christ

Montana Marv