Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Well yes, we are hidden, from God's anger, not from persecution. If we were to be hidden from persecution then what do we tell Christians around the world that are persecuted and dying today for the testimony they hold? Why didn't God hide them from trouble? Scripture recounts an aspect of the character of God that many simply don't want to deal with, he disciplines and punishes his wayward children. This is fully keeping in character for Jesus as Jesus is God. Jesus created everything. There has never been a time when Jesus did not exist. He is the Alpha and Omega, the mighty God.

I don't see rhetorical ideas such as yo-yos to be effective in the search for truth. All statements like this do is cast doubt. Much like the 'beat the snot out of you' statement. If that's the best argument you have for pretrib then pretrib is substantially false. Post some scripture that proves a pretrib rapture that also must refute the gathering in Matt 24 that happens after the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, when all the world beholds his glory. 

The problem for pretrib is a gathering in Matt 24 is conspicuous and a pretrib gathering is supposition based on poor rhetoric, bad exegesis, and false hope.

I do not confuse trials, persecution, and general tribulations with the period of time that the majority of scripture makes reference to, the final climatic events coming upon the earth, both by the hand of Satan and God's wrath.

It was a little melodramatic, but that was to emphasize the point.  It is essentially what would be the case in a post trib actuality.  Up and right back down in one event would be similar to a yo-yo.  And placing the bride of Christ as having to endure the wrath of God is not much different than an abusive husband or boyfriend. It just doesn't fit well with a God who has gone to such great lengths to justify people who have placed their eternity in His hands, that they are now to undergo the wrath of God intended for those that have rejected Him.  It doesn't fit well with the picture of God throughout scripture. Sounds more like Allah of Islam.  

As I stated, we can have disagreements about timing before the wrath of God comes upon the earth, and each position will argue that the others use poor rhetoric , bad exegesis, etc.  We need to watch  out that we don't take such things to the point of using them as a measuring line to test one's justification before the Lord.  Also, that we don't let pride and personal prejudice tint our analysis of these issues.   It is quite probable that we all are in error to one degree or another. 

One of the problems I see of positions other than pre-trib, is that a removal of the righteous is an event that is a day that no man can know when it is to happen. Jesus Himself said as much.   The parable of the 10 virgins expounds on it.  It is commonly referred to as the Doctrine of Imminence, that this removal could happen at any time with no preconditions.  Once the false messiah is revealed, and enforces a covenant with national Israel that he later violates, then one would be able to do a countdown to the events that transpire.   A removal time could then be determined after that.    I still contend that what lies behind some of these ideas that we are destined to endure this time that is coming upon the earth is a common flaw in our character, that we must have something to do with our salvation, that some effort is needed on our part above placing our trust in Him.  Either to earn our salvation, prove it, or maintain it.  It suggests that the sacrifice of Jesus isn't sufficient to reconcile to the Father, those of us who trust in Him.

To many, those of us that do not allow this flaw we all have to tint our view of things, it would seem like we have a false hope, wishful thinking, etc to hold a pre-trib position.  That's ok.  I know in whom I have placed my trust.   And like the Hebrews that were cast into the fire in the book of Daniel who wouldn't bow down to Nebuchadnezer's statue and reject God even if they would not be spared though they believed God would protect them, even if I am wrong and not removed prior to these future events, I will in no way stop trusting Him.  Isaiah 55:9.

But if I am correct in a pre-trib position, I will not gloat over it.  I will be more than happy to see all those who trust in Messiah gathered together.  Those of us who hold this position will gladly explain it on the way up!  

Edited July 29, 2017 by OldCoot
Stupid Spell Checker!

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I do not confuse trials, persecution, and general tribulations with the period of time that the majority of scripture makes reference to, the final climatic events coming upon the earth, both by the hand of Satan and God's wrath.

But it seems pretrib does, conflating the entire 70th week with 'great tribulation' designating the 70th week as the 'Tribulation period', and then equating that to the wrath of God as if all 7 years are 'wrath', which they are not. Your answer still does not address the question: If Christians are destined to escape trouble from as far back as the OT prophets, what do we say to the Christians dying under persecution every day? And if you are not equating the persecution of Christians today with the end of the age tribulation why does pretrib equate Satan's bedevilment of the saints and the Lord's anger destroying his enemies?

It was a little melodramatic, but that was to emphasize the point.  It is essentially what would be the case in a post trib actuality.  Up and right back down in one event would be similar to a yo-yo.  And placing the bride of Christ as having to endure the wrath of God is not much different than an abusive husband or boyfriend. It just doesn't fit well with a God who has gone to such great lengths to justify people who have placed their eternity in His hands, that they are now to undergo the wrath of God intended for those that have rejected Him.  It doesn't fit well with the picture of God throughout scripture. Sounds more like Allah of Islam.  

It would never be up and right back down. The armies we see in Rev 19 are armies, not the elect. The angels are also clothed in pure, white linen. Also, the saints are asking when the Lord will avenge them in Rev 6. It's doubtful the Lord brings the saints to fight the armies of mankind.  And again, the bride does not endure the wrath of God. The wrath of God, which is poured out on God's enemies, only occurs after the sign of the coming of the Son of Man and after the gathering of the elect, per Matt 24. What the church undergoes, before it's worthy to be the pure and blameless bride Jesus deserves, is the fiery testing at the hand of the beast; the beast God allows to try us all.  The sources you cited: Isaiah 26, Psalm 27, and Zeph 2 refer to escaping the Lord's anger, not the trial by fire.

As I stated, we can have disagreements about timing before the wrath of God comes upon the earth, and each position will argue that the others use poor rhetoric , bad exegesis, etc.  We need to watch  out that we don't take such things to the point of using them as a measuring line to test one's justification before the Lord.  Also, that we don't let pride and personal prejudice tint our analysis of these issues.   It is quite probable that we all are in error to one degree or another. 

This is just another shaming argument employed many times, by many people, to shut down opposing views. I have heard this many times and it really means, "You're wrong because you're not spiritual enough." No one mentioned metrics for justification and I certainly do not gloat or demean. Making a judgment concerning pride or prejudice in another person is an insight mankind does not possess. This would be the realm of the Holy Spirit and he will deal with each person as he sees fit. Ultimately, the only way to judge the accuracy of a prophecy is to witness the fulfillment. Even so, in the case of the end of the age there is so much information over the span of mankind's existence we can know with great certainty many things about the coming time. Prophecy will be fulfilled as God intends, true to every word He spoke, and it can only be fulfilled in one way, Gods way. That means every personal take on prophecy cannot be correct. This also means the only good scholars are the ones who search God's truth of the matter, even if there are the expected errors. The trouble is pretrib is error filled and accuracy of scripture in the doctrine is the rarity.

One of the problems I see of positions other than pre-trib, is that a removal of the righteous is an event that is a day that no man can know when it is to happen. Jesus Himself said as much.   The parable of the 10 virgins expounds on it.  It is commonly referred to as the Doctrine of Imminence, that this removal could happen at any time with no preconditions.  Once the false messiah is revealed, and enforces a covenant with national Israel that he later violates, then one would be able to do a countdown to the events that transpire.   A removal time could then be determined after that. (could not know the very moment unless you have a minute by minute timeline)   I still contend that what lies behind some of these ideas that we are destined to endure this time that is coming upon the earth is a common flaw in our character, that we must have something to do with our salvation, that some effort is needed on our part above placing our trust in Him.  Either to earn our salvation, prove it, or maintain it.  It suggests that the sacrifice of Jesus isn't sufficient to reconcile to the Father, those of us who trust in Him.

Imminence is a foolish doctrine.  Jesus said,

36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

50 "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,"

Each above quote refers to 'day' and/or 'hour'.  A full reading gives the context of daily life where the people in question are unaware of the day and hour of the Lord's coming. We can know the year, even the month perhaps, but the very moment we can never know and this is what Jesus was saying. There is nothing here about, 'no prophesied events can occur' before the gathering of the elect, and indeed many prophesied events have been fulfilled since Jesus' day. 

Why become personal with the 'character flaw' comment? Do you really believe that sincere biblical students are searching for prophecy to confirm a need be punished? I mean, you say 'we' but your position clearly says you are not in the group with the 'common character flaw'. Pretrib adherents can't really have any character flaws can they? In order to be taken off the earth alive they all have to match the godliness of Enoch and Elijah, both who were taken alive to heaven, the only two. Which makes me wonder why these two were mentioned, being so holy they could be taken alive to heaven, and there is no mention anywhere in scripture of a group of 100's of millions so purely righteous they are destined to be taken to heaven without dying? 

To many, those of us that do not allow this flaw (I knew you didn't mean 'we'.) we all have to tint our view of things, it would seem like we have a false hope, wishful thinking, etc to hold a pre-trib position.  That's ok.  I know in whom I have placed my trust.   And like the Hebrews that were cast into the fire in the book of Daniel who wouldn't bow down to Nebuchadnezer's statue and reject God even if they would not be spared though they believed God would protect them, even if I am wrong and not removed prior to these future events, I will in no way stop trusting Him.  Isaiah 55:9.

Well that's good. But how ya gonna know? Seems a bit odd to me. "Well, I trusted him for this, but that didn't happen, so now I'm going to trust him in this." But I get the point. He will keep us no matter if we die or not, persecution or not, thick or thin.

But if I am correct in a pre-trib position, I will not gloat over it.  I will be more than happy to see all those who trust in Messiah gathered together.  Those of us who hold this position will gladly explain it on the way up!  

 

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

It would never be up and right back down. The armies we see in Rev 19 are armies, not the elect. The angels are also clothed in pure, white linen. Also, the saints are asking when the Lord will avenge them in Rev 6. It's doubtful the Lord brings the saints to fight the armies of mankind.

If you read the passage closer, the armies that are with Him do not do any fighting either.  Jesus is the one who fights and overcomes these enemies.  Zechariah 14 is a supporting reference to Rev 19:14, and Zechariah says that the Lord comes with His saints, and the context is clearly the that great "day of the Lord".  In Jude 14, we see that again, also with the "day of the Lord" in the context.  And Rev 17:14, when the people of the earth give authority to the Beast to make war against the Lamb of God, those that are with Jesus are "chosen and faithful".  Seems like a saint reference to me.  And if He comes with His saints, they had to have been gathered to Him at some point previous to His coming.  None of the passages allows for gathering to him after He is already in route.  

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well that's good. But how ya gonna know? Seems a bit odd to me. "Well, I trusted him for this, but that didn't happen, so now I'm going to trust him in this." But I get the point. He will keep us no matter if we die or not, persecution or not, thick or thin.

How I am going to know is the same way anyone is going to know if their position is correct... how it plays out in reality.  That has to do more with knowing that I am justified. I am very comfortable in knowing what the Gospel is and what it means to be sealed to the day of redemption because of my belief in Messiah, His death, burial, and resurrection, and trusting in Him to be faithful and true.

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Why become personal with the 'character flaw' comment?

Nothing personal, just a statement of fact.  It is an inherent flaw in every person that they feel they need to have some measure of claim in guaranteeing their salvation.  It is the basis of just about every religion in history, and especially so today.  We can work our way to God has been the cornerstone of virtually every religion and cult in mankind's history.  And it is a pride issue, there is something in all of us that likes to hold our head up and say to ourselves that we have the exclusive truth, we are on a higher spiritual plane than others, it was tied to our efforts, etc.  And it is not just in religion.  It is a character flaw that most people carry with them in all their daily dealings.  Even in the workplace or driving down the road in heavy traffic. They like to think they are better than the guy next to them in one degree or another.  it is a flaw that can only be controlled by the power of the HS.  And it is a work in progress.

Nothing personal about folks having a sin nature either, if I would have said that.  Just a statement of fact.

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Imminence is a foolish doctrine.  Jesus said,

36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

50 "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,"

 

Those actually support a doctrine of imminence, that it could happen at any time with no preconditions met.  It also has strong allusion to what is typified in the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah).  This Feast is called the "day that no man knows" simply because it cannot be determined when it starts since it falls on the first of Tishri and the first of the month cannot be determined until the new moon has been established, as according to the Mosaic Law.  And in tradition, this feast has references to the removal of the righteous, the wedding of the Messiah to His bride, and His coronation as King.  

And the parable of the 10 virgins also supports an imminence position also.  

Edited July 29, 2017 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

On 7/28/2017 at 5:10 AM, Diaste said:

I know the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal, what's your point? 

And Joel is seeing conditions in the time just before the Day of the Lord. Joel says, "For the day of the Lord is near;" and, "it will come".  Joel does not say the Day 'has come' as the Day is close but not yet here, meaning the conditions the trumps bring occur before the 6th seal.

So the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal, and yet you wrote this:

" Rev 8:7-8 are not day of the Lord verses unless there is verbiage attesting this, and there is not. You have no idea if the calamity of 8:7-8 reach the level of the cruel, evil day that is the Lord's wrath. It is likely they do not as the wrath of God is described in detail in the vials, and is far more intense and brutal than Rev 8:7-8, and for the most part targets people directly, where 8:7-8 targets the earth. Very different.  "

What do you imagine, that God took the Day of the Lord back after it began at the 6th seal?  This is mass confusion!  You are right, the Day of the Lord DOES begin at the 6th seal, and then continues on throughout the ENTIRE 70th week. His wrath is there at the 7th trumpet. It is in the vials. It is even with Jesus when He returns to the Battle of Armageddon.

What did Isaiah say about the Day? That God would destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth. So what if she begins with 1/3? It is God in His great mercy showing the world that these things are in His hands.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

But it seems pretrib does, conflating the entire 70th week with 'great tribulation' designating the 70th week as the 'Tribulation period', and then equating that to the wrath of God as if all 7 years are 'wrath', which they are not. Your answer still does not address the question: If Christians are destined to escape trouble from as far back as the OT prophets, what do we say to the Christians dying under persecution every day? And if you are not equating the persecution of Christians today with the end of the age tribulation why does pretrib equate Satan's bedevilment of the saints and the Lord's anger destroying his enemies?

I am Pretrib. I don't call the week "the trib" as many do: I call it the 70th week of Daniel. You already admitted that the 6th seal begins the Day of His wrath....are you going to back out of that now, or even worse, tell us that the 6th seal happens sometime around Jesus return as in Rev. 19? Either way would be wrong. His wrath WILL begin that the future 6th seal. And it will continue on through the whole week, which week is delineated by chapters 8 through 16.

OF COURSE Christians die every day, as God's people have over the centuries. But NONE OF THAT was God's wrath. It was and is PERSECUTION caused by God's people living in a fallen world. It will be nothing like God's wrath poured out to destroy this world and the sinners in the world. As Jesus said, there never was and never will be again days like the days of GT that He spoke of.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it is not "pretrib" per se, but the scriptures that PROVE Satan's wrath and God's wrath come concurrently.

Why don't you just take revelation AS WRITTEN and form your theories from it as written? Neither John nor the Holy Spirit were trying to confuse people: it is written in the proper chronologically order - there is NO NEED to rearrange.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Post some scripture that proves a pretrib rapture that also must refute the gathering in Matt 24 that happens after the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, when all the world beholds his glory. 

The problem for pretrib is a gathering in Matt 24 is conspicuous and a pretrib gathering is supposition based on poor rhetoric, bad exegesis, and false hope.

What you are saying is, God is NOT ALLOWED to have any other gatherings! Will you really put God in such a box?

Scriptures have been posted, and rejected. If posted they would be rejected again. You see verses one way, pretrib sees them another way. It has been such for many years, and will continue right up until Christ comes and proves one side wrong.

I will ask one simple question: where or how do you see "peace and safety" happening anywhere in Rev. 16 through 19? I see it NOW, in many nations of the world, but I cannot see it after the 7 vials have been poured out and the planet's population has been reduced perhaps by 90%.  Everyone will be scared out of their wits. 

[iamlamad]

On 7/28/2017 at 0:15 AM, n2thelight said:

asleep in Greek means to decease, to be dead. This is talking about people that are already dead not people that are living on earth now. The second our flesh body dies our soul goes back to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
V7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So in your imagination you think the soul and spirit of a human are the same thing?

WAKE UP! What did Paul write? If we die, (absent from the body) then we are present with the Lord. What happened to the rich man and lazarus? They could SEE, they could TALK, they could FEEL, and they could REASON. Of course these are soulish areas.

[OldCoot]

46 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

So in your imagination you think the soul and spirit of a human are the same thing?

WAKE UP! What did Paul write? If we die, (absent from the body) then we are present with the Lord. What happened to the rich man and lazarus? They could SEE, they could TALK, they could FEEL, and they could REASON. Of course these are soulish areas.

The only problem in using the Rich Man and Lazarus story to support a position that is antithetical to what Paul wrote is that the story was based on a pre-resurrection of the Messiah presentation.   After the resurrection, those that die who are believers are then with the Lord per Paul. The prior concept of dying and then going to Abraham's bosom to wait no longer is a factor after the resurrection of the Messiah.  For those that reject Messiah, there is Hades.  For those that place their trust in Messiah, they are with Him after death.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (LITV) Because of this, He says, "Having gone up on high, He led captivity captive," and gave "gifts to men." (Psalm 68:18) 9 But that He went up, what is it except that He also first came down into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that came down is the same who also went up above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

Edited July 30, 2017 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

 Well sorry you said Jesus 

Jesus is and His character

now you side step to God the father.

if we are to believe God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, then God is quite capable of hidding his people during his wrath, like exodus without removing them to another galaxy or beyond the universe in order to hide people.

this is here on earth:

Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

God is not going to call martial law in heaven so you can be locked up in an under ground bunker in your mansions in heaven with an indestructible new spirit body.

Well It is not really out of line to bring up Jesus and His character and also then bring up God  and His character.  After all, they are the same God.  Kinda like The Father created the heavens and the earth, the Son created the heavens and the earth, and the Holy Spirit created the heavens and the earth.  Yes, you can find verses throughout scripture that attribute the creation to each individually.

But the part you conveniently left out is the verse just before that part in Isaiah 26 that also says the dead are resurrected along with those that are hidden. 

Isaiah 26:19-20 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

I'll tell ya what... you stick around in your chambers that you believe are here on earth with a bunch of resurrected carcasses who hold the same idea that we remain on this earth while this stuff is going on and I will hide in those chambers that Messiah is preparing for both the living and resurrected and we will both be living out what we hold true.  

Notice in this passage from John that He is returning to receive us to Himself and taking us to where He is residing, not the time when He is returning to conquer and rule as in other passages.  There is a difference.

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

What constitutes the saving faith of Abraham that characterizes those who are justified in God's sight, is believing what He has said and relying on His promises.

Romans 4:3 (NKJV) For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

So, I suppose that those who do not believe what He has said, will indeed be those that get their wishes to live things out on the earth during that cataclysmic time.   I would prefer to watch it all from the balcony with Him.

Edited July 30, 2017 by OldCoot
Stupid Spell Checker!

[OldCoot]

Oh, boy.  Go ahead and hold onto those ideas if you want. We will all find out one day. 

If one is holding that Jesus is actually the Archangel Michael or some such thing, that could indeed be called Heretical.  Discussions within the body about eschatology perspectives is not really in the same league.  Be careful that your making the claim that others who do not see things the way you do are heretical, as that can lead to a sense of pride, which is sin.   In the literal sense, Heresy means not holding to orthodox religious views.  In that, I indeed fall into that camp.  Much of what the institutional church has held over the centuries is counter to scripture.  So to say that a position I hold is heretical doesn't phase me a bit.   I take the scripture seriously as opposed to allegorizing the text to extremes.  When the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense.   

I would contend that holding a pre-trib position does not mean we "love our lives too much".  I actually hate this life and, like the Apostle Paul stated, would rather be with the Lord than here. I am more than ready to shed this carcass and move on.  But I will stay here as long as God sees fit.