Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord,

Iamlamad, your understanding of the flow of what John saw as recorded in the book of Revelation is entirely unsupportable.

The most spoken of event in all of the holy Scriptures is the future day of the Lord. God began to reveal that future period of time early on in the OT. The prophets had much to say about it. Jesus reiterated what the prophets had said about it, adding some detail and the order of events associated with it. Later the apostles taught the exact same thing they learned from Jesus and the prophets. What John saw matched perfectly with that which had been prophesied.

I don't have time right now to take you through the whole book of Revelation to show you your error, but you can do yourself a lot of good if you will start with Jesus' explanation to His disciples the events surrounding His singular second coming.

The disciples ask 3 questions

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1) when shall these things be?

This refers to Jesus statement that not one stone would be left upon another, concerning the destruction of the Temple.

2) what shall be the sign of thy coming?

They asked for a sign to know the timing of His coming. Jesus gives them the order of events that His parousia (His return and continuing presence) follows.

3) what shall be the sign...of the end of the world?

It is important to see that Christ's return is associated with the end of the age. The word "world" is translated from the Greek word aeon which means an age or world system not the physical cosmos.

Mathew's gospel doesn't record Jesus' answer to the first question. To the second and third question Christ responds:

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (The word Christ refers to the anointed one or Messiah)
Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

This first group of events Jesus calls the beginning of sorrows. He draws upon familiar analogy of the various pains the mother goes through as the body is preparing for child birth. These are paralleled by what John sees at the opening of the first three seals.

A Conqueror or a Messiah

Rev 6:1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

War

Rev 6:3  And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4  And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Famine

Rev 6:5  And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6  And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

It should be noted that there is nothing unparalleled about what Jesus has described thus far. These type of things have happened for the past 2000 years. Jesus said concerning these things, "but the end is not yet." The end of the age comes later on.

What does Jesus say is next? Persecution of the believer, of the disciple of Christ

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jesus begins to go into greater detail about this coming unparalleled persecution

It begins in the middle of the week when the man of sin defiles the temple (Dan 9:27; 2Thes 2:3-10)

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

When the Beast stands in the Temple shewing the world that he is God flee immediately

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The great tribulation shall be cut short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

There will be great deception during this time of great tribulation, even miracles performed by the false prophets

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.

Jesus says that His return will be unmistakable, the whole world will know, don't believe all the false reports

Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The great persecution of the elect, called great tribulation, parallels what John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seals

Rev 6:7  And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Next Jesus identifies the cosmic sign associated with the day of the Lord as happening after the great tribulation

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

John sees this cosmic sign when the 6th seal is opened

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It is the same cosmic sign that Joel and Isaiah refer to

Joe 2:30  And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

After the cosmic sign, He returns with the holy angels in the clouds of heaven, and gathers His elect unto himself

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect who were raised from the dead and raptured are seen safe before the throne at the Fathers house

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12  Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17  For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

This is Jesus' order of events. If your's doesn't line up with His your wrong.

Hallelujah

Sorry, I gave God's order as given in Revelation. This is your theory.  Here is where you went wrong:

"you can do yourself a lot of good if you will start with Jesus' explanation to His disciples the events surrounding His singular second coming."

You have missed the intent of scriptures: Jesus will come twice more, not once.  Scriptures flow much easier when we see this truth.

Another point you have missed: Jesus was answering Jewish men about the end of THEIR age. which will be the 70th week of Daniel. This fact is proven by Matthew 24:15 where Jesus mentions the abomination that will divide that week.  As long as you confuse scriptures pointed to the Jews and imagine they are for the church, you will be on the wrong road. 

 

Of course pretribbers know Jesus will come after the days of GT. But we also know He will come 7 plus years before that FOR His saints. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by iamlamad

[Steve Conley]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, I gave God's order as given in Revelation. This is your theory.  Here is where you went wrong:

"you can do yourself a lot of good if you will start with Jesus' explanation to His disciples the events surrounding His singular second coming."

You have missed the intent of scriptures: Jesus will come twice more, not once.  Scriptures flow much easier when we see this truth.

Another point you have missed: Jesus was answering Jewish men about the end of THEIR age. which will be the 70th week of Daniel. This fact is proven by Matthew 24:15 where Jesus mentions the abomination that will divide that week.  As long as you confuse scriptures pointed to the Jews and imagine they are for the church, you will be on the wrong road. 

 

Of course pretribbers know Jesus will come after the days of GT. But we also know He will come 7 plus years before that FOR His saints. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

iamlamad, I can give you many references to the second coming. However, you can't give me a single one to a third coming, because there isn't another coming (parousia = His return and continuing presence)

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

"When the fulness of time was come God sent forth His son" the first time. When it is time for the restitution of all things the Father will send Him the second time. 

Act 3:20  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

What you fail to see is that His parousia initiates the day of the Lord which will continue up until and may even continue in the eternal state. It is the future period of time in which He alone will be exalted. The day of the Lord is used primarily to refer to Christ's coming (parousia) with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. However, Paul uses "the day of Christ" when He is emphasizing Christ's interaction with His church at His parousia.

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So, you are saying that your interpretation of Revelation (by the way, it is wrong) is more authoritative than the clear answer of Jesus to His disciples. Maybe you have bought the lie that Matthew 24 is for the Jews? Have you ever considered that within a couple days of when Jesus answered the question of the disciples: "what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world" (aeon) he told them that "if I go away, I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there ye may be also". Is that promise only for the Jews also? Why not? To the same group of disciples Jesus gave the great commission and He ended it with "lo I am with you, even unto the end of the world." (aeon) They had asked Jesus what was the sign of the end of the world (aeon). Was the great commission only for the Jews also? Why not? I find it incredulous that it is taught that Matt 24 is only for the Jews. To allow false teachers (yes that is exactly what they are) to steal such an vital portion of Scripture from you is scandalous. All who receive such teaching have become what Paul warned Timothy of:

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2Ti 4:3-4)

They are false teachers keeping complicit congregations unprepared for the great persecution that is to come by promising them a great escape that will never happen. That is the God honest, but so sad truth. 

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iamlamad, I have, over a number of posts, now provided you with a great volume of truth. That very same truth, I would have loved to have been given 30 years ago when I began to teach the pre-trib model. You are now without excuse. Repent, like I did. I was deceived and by my teaching deceiving others, but God in His great mercy and grace opened my eyes and heart. He recovered me from my error and has equipped me with the truth and given me the responsibility to teach and preach it.

It will be two late to prepare yourself spiritually for the cost if great tribulation catches you by surprise. There is no great escape. The antichrist shall come before the Lord. Jesus said: "...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? "

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The days of the great tribulation are cut short to save some of the elect alive. The elect are those being persecuted for the name of Christ.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

iamlamad, I can give you many references to the second coming. However, you can't give me a single one to a third coming, because there isn't another coming (parousia = His return and continuing presence)

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

"When the fulness of time was come God sent forth His son" the first time. When it is time for the restitution of all things the Father will send Him the second time. 

Act 3:20  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

What you fail to see is that His parousia initiates the day of the Lord which will continue up until and may even continue in the eternal state. It is the future period of time in which He alone will be exalted. The day of the Lord is used primarily to refer to Christ's coming (parousia) with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. However, Paul uses "the day of Christ" when He is emphasizing Christ's interaction with His church at His parousia.

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So, you are saying that your interpretation of Revelation (by the way, it is wrong) is more authoritative than the clear answer of Jesus to His disciples. Maybe you have bought the lie that Matthew 24 is for the Jews? Have you ever considered that within a couple days of when Jesus answered the question of the disciples: "what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world" (aeon) he told them that "if I go away, I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there ye may be also". Is that promise only for the Jews also? Why not? To the same group of disciples Jesus gave the great commission and He ended it with "lo I am with you, even unto the end of the world." (aeon) They had asked Jesus what was the sign of the end of the world (aeon). Was the great commission only for the Jews also? Why not? I find it incredulous that it is taught that Matt 24 is only for the Jews. To allow false teachers (yes that is exactly what they are) to steal such an vital portion of Scripture from you is scandalous. All who receive such teaching have become what Paul warned Timothy of:

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2Ti 4:3-4)

They are false teachers keeping complicit congregations unprepared for the great persecution that is to come by promising them a great escape that will never happen. That is the God honest, but so sad truth. 

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iamlamad, I have, over a number of posts, now provided you with a great volume of truth. That very same truth, I would have loved to have been given 30 years ago when I began to teach the pre-trib model. You are now without excuse. Repent, like I did. I was deceived and by my teaching deceiving others, but God in His great mercy and grace opened my eyes and heart. He recovered me from my error and has equipped me with the truth and given me the responsibility to teach and preach it.

It will be two late to prepare yourself spiritually for the cost if great tribulation catches you by surprise. There is no great escape. The antichrist shall come before the Lord. Jesus said: "...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? "

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The days of the great tribulation are cut short to save some of the elect alive. The elect are those being persecuted for the name of Christ.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

Steve, you are missing so much. There are end times scriptures pointed to three different groups of people, and you are mixing them up! There are scriptures for the Nations (Gentiles) for the Jews and Hebrews, and for the church.  Mix them up and you don't have the truth; only imagination and human reasoning.

WHO was Jesus talking to when He was addressing the disciples in the Olivet Discourse? Some imagine this discourse was for the church. The truth is, Jesus was talking to Hebrew men about the end of THEIR age. If you take the Olivet Discourse and apply it to the church, you will have disagreement with other scriptures that ARE for the church. 

Did you read?

Daniel 9:²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city

Mat. 24:¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Why then would you want to apply scripture that is for Jews and Hebrews to the church? The 70th week is very much a part of the 70 weeks (of years) and it is for Daniel's people, not the church. 

I think your count is off. He came once. That was His first coming. The very next time He comes will be a second coming. If indeed He comes as pretrib says He will, that coming to the clouds will be the 2nd time He comes. Then, when He comes as shown in Rev. 19, that would be His THIRD (3rd) coming. 

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Did you really read this? I wonder.  I can assure you that Jesus will appear to millions that are not looking for Him in His Rev. 19 coming. But concerning His coming for His church, as told by Paul in 1 thes., He will only come to the air and in a cloud, and will not "appear" to the world. Have you ever watched a jet plane moving through the sky, and then disappear into a cloud? It becomes invisible for the cloud hides it.  The world is not going to see Jesus in a cloud. But those that are raptured will certainly see Him.  What this verse is telling us is that many who imagine they will be caught up, will not be, simply because they are not EXPECTING Him and looking for His coming.  

Question in point: Are YOU expecting Him tomorrow? How can you be when you expect to see the Beast first? 

"What you fail to see is that His parousia initiates the day of the Lord"

You are not far off here, but not in the way you imagine.  I don't go by theories, I go by scripture. Now let's look:

Background: Jesus ascended into heaven right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. John saw His arrival in vision form. What was the first thing Jesus did? He got the book from the right hand of the Father and began immediately breaking seals. The goal of course is to get all seals opened so that the BOOK can be opened and read. The trumpets are INSIDE the book and cannot happen until all 7 seals are opened. 

Rev. 6:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Remember, this is still a seal sealing the document, preventing it from being opened to reveal the rest of the Book of Revelation.  And notice, John is telling us that at this time, the time of this great earthquake, the Day of the Lord or the Day of His Wrath has begun. Can you find the word "coming" here? The only thing that has come is destruction - exactly what the Day of the Lord is about.  So the DAY begins and the book is still sealed with one seal left: the 7th. So the book cannot yet be opened to reveal the trumpet and vial judgments - or, as i said previously, the rest of the book of Revelation. 

My point? Its very simple: it is a LONG WAYS between chapter 6 and chapter 19 and the truth is, over 7 long and hard years between.

Now, to show how close you are, but not as you imagine. Paul is writing of His coming and the rapture, and just 3 verses after the catching up he speaks of the Day of the Lord, AS IF THE TWO EVENTS ARE RELATED! 

Indeed, they ARE related: His coming triggers the rapture, for He will first call up the dead in Christ, then those alive and in Christ.  And then the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. So you are right that the DAY comes because HE comes. But this is not the Rev. 19 coming!  He stops in the sky. And from the 6th seal to after the 7th vial, JESUS IS IN HEAVEN.

John 14:

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

² In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Indeed We will go to where "I am" which will be in heaven. (And you have imagined that there is no pretrib in scripture.) The Bride of Christ will spend the 7 years in heaven. Then we will return WITH Him. But before we return, Rev. 19 shows us that the marriage and supper take place IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. No Posttribber has ever explained how they will get to heaven to be at this marriage and supper. No, they must REARRANGE Revelation and imagine the marriage will be on earth. 

"The day of the Lord is used primarily to refer to Christ's coming "

Again I must disagree.  All of the Old Testament scriptures of the Day of the Lord is that it is to destroy the world and the sinners in the world. No one would EVER get the idea of a catching up of the righteous from any Old Testament verse on the Day of the Lord. It is a DARK day, not a day of splendor and brightness. And as John states, it is also The day of His Wrath.

So, you are saying that your interpretation of Revelation (by the way, it is wrong) is more authoritative than the clear answer of Jesus to His disciples.

Again I must disagree.  Revelation is very much the words of Christ too, but penned by John. Both are true and both are the Word of God. However, Jesus gave a very brief outline, while Revelation fills in much detail. Sorry, but it is your theories that don't fit. Sorry, but Matthew 24 is no more "authoritative" than Revelation, for it is the SAME AUTHOR.  

Maybe you have bought the lie that Matthew 24 is for the Jews?

Here is why we disagree. You have hit the nail squarely on the head: Is Matthew 24 pointed to the church or to the Jews? Is 24:15 about the abomination mentioned in Dan. 9:27? You know it is. You also know it is a part of the 70th week. You should know, if you don't, that the abomination event will stop the daily sacrifices and divide the week into two halves. But the point is, Daniel himself told us the 70th week is FOR HIS PEOPLE. You see, scripture answers your question and comes up with a different answer than your theory does. 

I think you need to study this scripture:  

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

What is God really telling us here? God gave TIME ( a few years) for Israel as a nation to accept Him as their Messiah. They refused. God then turned to the Gentiles. The Jewish church ENDED (they all died). The Gentile church began.  Paul said it well, the ten disciples went to the Jews, but Paul turned to the Gentiles. So Israel (the Jews and Hebrews) got blindness and God began a new church with Gentiles. I am not saying it, PAUL said it. So God is waiting for the fullness (a NUMBER) to come in. When that number is fulfilled, Jesus will come FOR His Gentile church. 

 

Then What Jesus said in Matthew 24 will begin: the 70th week. It will begin with the 7th seal, and end with the 7th vial. The 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint. 

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree with most of your theories. They simply are not the intent of scriptures. 

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord,

Iamlamad, your understanding of the flow of what John saw as recorded in the book of Revelation is entirely unsupportable.

...

What does Jesus say is next? Persecution of the believer, of the disciple of Christ

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

Again you have missed a key point that throws your entire argument off. Let's look:

⁴ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

¹⁰ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

¹¹ And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

¹² And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Did you notice the text in red?  What did Jesus mean by "the end is not yet?" What it means is, He is not yet speaking of end times, but rather CHURCH AGE. Notice verses 7 through 12 are included due to the prepositions that begin the verses. In truth, Jesus does not get to "end times" until verse 13. And then He completely jumps over the first half of the 70th week and begins with the abomination that will divide the week. 

In truth, Jesus parallels these verses with the first 4 seals in Revelation. They are not end time either.  They are church age events. In revelation we do not get to the "end times" until the 6th seal. 

I doubt if we will ever agree until you see these things play out and the pretrib rapture takes place. 

[Steve Conley]

 

On 2/28/2018 at 9:30 AM, iamlamad said:

Steve, you are missing so much. There are end times scriptures pointed to three different groups of people, and you are mixing them up! There are scriptures for the Nations (Gentiles) for the Jews and Hebrews, and for the church.  Mix them up and you don't have the truth; only imagination and human reasoning.

WHO was Jesus talking to when He was addressing the disciples in the Olivet Discourse? Some imagine this discourse was for the church. The truth is, Jesus was talking to Hebrew men about the end of THEIR age. If you take the Olivet Discourse and apply it to the church, you will have disagreement with other scriptures that ARE for the church. 

Did you read?

Daniel 9:²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city

Mat. 24:¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Why then would you want to apply scripture that is for Jews and Hebrews to the church? The 70th week is very much a part of the 70 weeks (of years) and it is for Daniel's people, not the church. 

I think your count is off. He came once. That was His first coming. The very next time He comes will be a second coming. If indeed He comes as pretrib says He will, that coming to the clouds will be the 2nd time He comes. Then, when He comes as shown in Rev. 19, that would be His THIRD (3rd) coming. 

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Did you really read this? I wonder.  I can assure you that Jesus will appear to millions that are not looking for Him in His Rev. 19 coming. But concerning His coming for His church, as told by Paul in 1 thes., He will only come to the air and in a cloud, and will not "appear" to the world. Have you ever watched a jet plane moving through the sky, and then disappear into a cloud? It becomes invisible for the cloud hides it.  The world is not going to see Jesus in a cloud. But those that are raptured will certainly see Him.  What this verse is telling us is that many who imagine they will be caught up, will not be, simply because they are not EXPECTING Him and looking for His coming.  

Question in point: Are YOU expecting Him tomorrow? How can you be when you expect to see the Beast first? 

"What you fail to see is that His parousia initiates the day of the Lord"

You are not far off here, but not in the way you imagine.  I don't go by theories, I go by scripture. Now let's look:

Background: Jesus ascended into heaven right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. John saw His arrival in vision form. What was the first thing Jesus did? He got the book from the right hand of the Father and began immediately breaking seals. The goal of course is to get all seals opened so that the BOOK can be opened and read. The trumpets are INSIDE the book and cannot happen until all 7 seals are opened. 

Rev. 6:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Remember, this is still a seal sealing the document, preventing it from being opened to reveal the rest of the Book of Revelation.  And notice, John is telling us that at this time, the time of this great earthquake, the Day of the Lord or the Day of His Wrath has begun. Can you find the word "coming" here? The only thing that has come is destruction - exactly what the Day of the Lord is about.  So the DAY begins and the book is still sealed with one seal left: the 7th. So the book cannot yet be opened to reveal the trumpet and vial judgments - or, as i said previously, the rest of the book of Revelation. 

My point? Its very simple: it is a LONG WAYS between chapter 6 and chapter 19 and the truth is, over 7 long and hard years between.

Now, to show how close you are, but not as you imagine. Paul is writing of His coming and the rapture, and just 3 verses after the catching up he speaks of the Day of the Lord, AS IF THE TWO EVENTS ARE RELATED! 

Indeed, they ARE related: His coming triggers the rapture, for He will first call up the dead in Christ, then those alive and in Christ.  And then the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. So you are right that the DAY comes because HE comes. But this is not the Rev. 19 coming!  He stops in the sky. And from the 6th seal to after the 7th vial, JESUS IS IN HEAVEN.

John 14:

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

² In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Indeed We will go to where "I am" which will be in heaven. (And you have imagined that there is no pretrib in scripture.) The Bride of Christ will spend the 7 years in heaven. Then we will return WITH Him. But before we return, Rev. 19 shows us that the marriage and supper take place IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. No Posttribber has ever explained how they will get to heaven to be at this marriage and supper. No, they must REARRANGE Revelation and imagine the marriage will be on earth. 

"The day of the Lord is used primarily to refer to Christ's coming "

Again I must disagree.  All of the Old Testament scriptures of the Day of the Lord is that it is to destroy the world and the sinners in the world. No one would EVER get the idea of a catching up of the righteous from any Old Testament verse on the Day of the Lord. It is a DARK day, not a day of splendor and brightness. And as John states, it is also The day of His Wrath.

So, you are saying that your interpretation of Revelation (by the way, it is wrong) is more authoritative than the clear answer of Jesus to His disciples.

Again I must disagree.  Revelation is very much the words of Christ too, but penned by John. Both are true and both are the Word of God. However, Jesus gave a very brief outline, while Revelation fills in much detail. Sorry, but it is your theories that don't fit. Sorry, but Matthew 24 is no more "authoritative" than Revelation, for it is the SAME AUTHOR.  

Maybe you have bought the lie that Matthew 24 is for the Jews?

Here is why we disagree. You have hit the nail squarely on the head: Is Matthew 24 pointed to the church or to the Jews? Is 24:15 about the abomination mentioned in Dan. 9:27? You know it is. You also know it is a part of the 70th week. You should know, if you don't, that the abomination event will stop the daily sacrifices and divide the week into two halves. But the point is, Daniel himself told us the 70th week is FOR HIS PEOPLE. You see, scripture answers your question and comes up with a different answer than your theory does. 

I think you need to study this scripture:  

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

What is God really telling us here? God gave TIME ( a few years) for Israel as a nation to accept Him as their Messiah. They refused. God then turned to the Gentiles. The Jewish church ENDED (they all died). The Gentile church began.  Paul said it well, the ten disciples went to the Jews, but Paul turned to the Gentiles. So Israel (the Jews and Hebrews) got blindness and God began a new church with Gentiles. I am not saying it, PAUL said it. So God is waiting for the fullness (a NUMBER) to come in. When that number is fulfilled, Jesus will come FOR His Gentile church. 

 

Then What Jesus said in Matthew 24 will begin: the 70th week. It will begin with the 7th seal, and end with the 7th vial. The 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint. 

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree with most of your theories. They simply are not the intent of scriptures. 

 

On 2/28/2018 at 9:42 AM, iamlamad said:

Again you have missed a key point that throws your entire argument off. Let's look:

⁴ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

¹⁰ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

¹¹ And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

¹² And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Did you notice the text in red?  What did Jesus mean by "the end is not yet?" What it means is, He is not yet speaking of end times, but rather CHURCH AGE. Notice verses 7 through 12 are included due to the prepositions that begin the verses. In truth, Jesus does not get to "end times" until verse 13. And then He completely jumps over the first half of the 70th week and begins with the abomination that will divide the week. 

In truth, Jesus parallels these verses with the first 4 seals in Revelation. They are not end time either.  They are church age events. In revelation we do not get to the "end times" until the 6th seal. 

I doubt if we will ever agree until you see these things play out and the pretrib rapture takes place. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Iamlamad, You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Matthew 24 was written to the Jews, that it is exclusively for them, and at the same time say Jesus was explaining to them about the Church age.  LOL, Your thinking and teaching contradicts itself.

Notice: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." In Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to believing Jews, the Apostles, who make up the foundation of the Church (Eph 2:20). He is not addressing unbelieving Jews who will come under the rod when He goes to restore the nation just prior to His Davidic Kingdom being set up. The church is made up of believing Jews and Gentiles together. In the first few years of the Church, as presented in the Scriptures, it was made up of exclusively believing Israelites. It wasn't until Peter brought the gospel to Cornelius in Acts 10 that Gentiles began being added to the Church.

From what you have said in your last two posts it appears you need some help rightly understanding the age that we are presently in.

When considering what held me in the Pre-trib camp for thirty years, other than the misidentification of Daniel’s seventieth week as the “Tribulation Period” and the false doctrine of imminency (the any moment rapture), I would say it had to be the marriage of the Pre-trib position to dispensationalism. I identified myself as a dispensationalist and still do to some degree, because I believe in the literal interpretation of Scripture and that the Scriptures distinguish between Israel and the Church. However, I have come to understand the parameters of the Church age to be different from that which has been asserted by traditional dispensational teachers.

Classic dispensational teaching has the Church removed from the earth prior to the commencement of Daniel’s seventieth week. In standard dispensational thinking the last seven years of this age are exclusively for the nation of Israel with the Church being raptured before it begins. That teaching makes for a tidy system, but it fails the test of being Biblically supportable. Let’s look at what the Scriptures have to say concerning the period of time we have come to call the church age.

When did the Church age begin?

To answer this, it is helpful to ascertain the distinguishing feature of the Church as opposed to believers before the cross. The church is said to be the body of Christ. How does one become a part of this body? The believer is placed in the body of Christ through the baptism of Christ. Notice what John the Baptist says concerning Jesus.

Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.  

He says that there are two baptisms that our Lord will initiate: a baptism with the Holy Spirit and a baptism with fire. The baptism of fire involves the final judgement of the unbelieving as verse 12 indicates. The baptism of the Holy Spirit on the other hand refers to the process by which the believer is placed into (immersed or baptized into) the body of Christ.

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The baptism of Christ involves the Holy Spirit being the instrument by which the believer is placed into Christ. This work of the Spirit does not begin until He, the Holy Spirit, is given by the Father upon the day of Pentecost after Christ's ascension. This is the beginning of the Church and hence the Church Age.

Before His death, Jesus told his disciples, concerning the Holy Spirit, that He that was with them would be in them. He also told them after His resurrection and right before He ascended up into Heaven that they should wait for the promise of the Father. This promise was the giving of the Holy Spirit to indwell every believer. 

The giving of the Holy Spirit and His instrumentality in placing the believer in Christ began the Church and the period of time in which God is receiving believing Jews and calling out for Himself a people from among the Gentiles. 

The end of the Church age

Having seen when the church age began we now ask: when does it end? You might find it helpful to know that the Prophets and the Apostles have something to say about this.

On the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given the manifestation of such caused much commotion and many wondered what was happening. To those who wondered Peter explained what was being put in place by referencing the prophet Joel. 

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Act 2:14-21) 

Notice that Peter says to his audience that what they were witnessing was that which was spoken of by Joel the prophet. He says that this unusual happening is the beginning of a period of time that begins with the pouring out of the Holy Spirit and continues until the Day of the LORD.

It is important to observe that Peter didn’t include all that Joel had prophesied. Notice that he left out the end of Joel 2:32.

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (Joel 2:28-32)  

The deliverance that is spoken of at the end of verse 32 takes place at the end of the seventieth week and is therefore not part of the Church Age. Peter says that the Church Age will end when the Day of the LORD arrives. It is at this point that Jesus said that He would send His angels to gather His own unto Himself (Matt 24:31).

Just as the beginning of the Church Age focused upon Jewish believers not Gentiles, the first Gentile converts being Cornelius and his household which were converted many years into the period. So also, the end of the Church Age extends into a time determined upon Israel and Jerusalem that we know as Daniel’s seventieth week (Dan. 9:24).

It is also important to notice that Gentiles are still being added to Christ in the great tribulation. In Rev 7:9-17, the innumerable multitude seen before the throne which are said to be "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" most certainly includes Gentiles and appears to be predominately Gentiles. These were said to have come out of great tribulation, "and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb". They are saved just as we are today. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ. They are fellow heirs of the promises. They will, like the present day true believer, will be priests of God and Christ and reign with Christ for 1000 years.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Notice from verse 4 that these were martyred by the Beast, therefore, they came out of great tribulation. (Isn't it amazing how just a little bit of Scripture can expose the foolish ideas that people teach?)

Since God continues to draw Gentiles to Himself in the great tribulation, we can safely say that the fullness of the Gentiles will not come in until the great tribulation is over. So, Israel in part remains blind until the great tribulation is over.

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

To end this comment I would just like to add that it is important to allow the Scriptures to define the parameters of the Church Age and not follow a Biblically unsupportable system even though it may have an appealing order. The Biblical parameters of the Church Age only lend support to the pre-wrath model of the rapture of the church.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Great God, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2018 by Steve Conley

[iamlamad]

Steve Conley wrote,

Iamlamad, You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Matthew 24 was written to the Jews, that it is exclusively for them, and at the same time say Jesus was explaining to them about the Church age.  LOL, Your thinking and teaching contradicts itself.

Sorry, but I disagree. The Jews and Hebrews had to live through the church age, but were blinded as God said. He was explaining the FUTURE, which would be for both them and the church. However, the church has chosen to call this the church age. Some almost seem to choke on "church age." The truth is, the whole world has gone through the last 2000 years, but from God's prospective, it has been the age of Grace, or the church age. 

For example: one of the big earthquakes...lets say the one that caused the huge Tsunami that destroyed Japan. There were members of the church living in Japan, but the tsunami destroyed everything in its path.  Perhaps some members of the church went home that day. For sure many died with very little warning. Jesus told us the earth would go through birth pains. It happens even though the church is still here. 

 

[iamlamad]

Steve Conley wrote,

Notice: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nationsfor my name's sake."

I agree, the first few years of the church it was exclusively made up of Jews.  But that church of Jewish people disappeared. God turned to the Gentiles.  

Question: were those early church members  hated around the world?  Every one of the 11 disciples met a savage death, all except John. And they tried to kill him.  Rome went after the early church with a passion, even after Gentiles were added.  By the way, the Jews are STILL hated by all nations. That has not changed. 

[simplejeff]

"By the Way"  EVERYONE who stands up for the truth is hated by all nations.  Society is so wicked, so evil , so pernicious,

that lying is as common almost as breathing.  Cheating in business, government, corporations and personal and street relationships is every day.   All under the sway of the prince of the power of the air , the devil.

They all hate Jesus, He Says,  so His students (Jews and gentiles) should not expect to be treated differently.

Note what this means for many members and visitors here - if they are not being hated by 'the world'/ society/ and even other 'churches' (of the world),   they are not being faithful to Jesus nor standing up for the truth.

[iamlamad]

Steve Conley wrote, 

 The believer is placed in the body of Christ through the baptism of Christ. Notice what John the Baptist says concerning Jesus.

Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

Wow! Steve, it is no wonder we disagree! You have missed it by a country mile here! The truth is, people are added to the church  - or to the body of Christ - by becoming BORN AGAIN!

You really do not understand Mat. 3:11.  This baptism by the Holy Spirit is for POWER to witness, not for anything else. And it usually is an event that comes AFTER salvation.  Did you just not study the book of Acts?

Lyle wrote in Acts 1: 

⁵ for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

⁸ But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me^[a]in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Steve, if you study Acts 8 and Acts 19, you will see that this "baptism" in the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit "ON" or "UPON" not within. It is NOT salvation or regeneration. And you will notice that first people were born again, they water baptized, and THEN, after, they received this mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit for POWER.

Steve, this is the ANOINTING...the very same anointing Jesus got.

 

Acts 10:38

how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

 

HOW then are people added to the body of Christ on earth? Paul explained it well: we BELIEVE in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, and then we CONFESS Jesus with our mouth. 

 

AFTER being born again, it is the will of God that ALL receive this mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit, or as Luke put it, become FILLED with the Holy Spirit.

 

Oh! The church began when Jesus breathed on them in the upper room and said, "receive the Holy Spirit."

Edited March 1, 2018 by iamlamad

[simplejeff]

On 2/27/2018 at 11:24 AM, Steve Conley said:

Iamlamad, your understanding of the flow of what John saw as recorded in the book of Revelation is entirely unsupportable.

There are several visitors recently bringing with them entirely false teachings.   After being alerted several times,  warned, and even shown from Scripture the truth,  they have been sticking with their corrupt teaching instead of repenting and instead of learning the truth.   Arguing, debating, discussing with them is futile and their false message has wasted a lot of people's time and badly affected a lot of people's souls online and offline in person.