Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[choir loft]

On 3/23/2019 at 8:36 PM, OldCoot said:

There is nothing in the passage that says anyone going thru it is a redeemed member of Yeshua.  Even those "taken" in the passage of Matthew 24:37-42 are taken for destruction, not taken for eternal life.   The context is talking about the days of Noah and refers to those were were taken (destroyed) in the flood.

And the Elect of the passage is the Elect of Isaiah 45:4...

Isaiah 45:4  For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

to state that the elect of Matthew 24 is elect believers, then that would conflict with Matthew 25, the parable fo virgins.  It is all the same discourse.  It is disingenuous to go changing who the elect are in mid stream.  Those virgins are bridesmaids, whereas the redeemed elect that are part of Messiah are the bride of Yeshua.   Unless one is schizophrenic, Elect cannot alternate between groups in the same discourse.  

No way of getting around it.  The passage clearly is speaking of Jacob (Israel) which, as a national identity, is YHVH's Elect.  The church is not a nation.  And Paul makes that distinction.

Romans 10:19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:
“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”

Romans 11:26-29 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Well said

[WilliamL]

20 minutes ago, choir loft said:

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Rather than actually responding to my rebuttal argument, you just went on another long name-calling diatribe. Clearly the spirit in you is one of an accuser. Jesus and His apostles never shied away from reasoned debate. Whereas it was the Pharisees that were quick to hurl accusations.

So any further reasoned debate with you is obviously pointless. Bye.

[Diaste]

On 3/23/2019 at 6:36 PM, OldCoot said:

There is nothing in the passage that says anyone going thru it is a redeemed member of Yeshua.  Even those "taken" in the passage of Matthew 24:37-42 are taken for destruction, not taken for eternal life.   The context is talking about the days of Noah and refers to those were were taken (destroyed) in the flood.

And the Elect of the passage is the Elect of Isaiah 45:4...

Isaiah 45:4  For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

to state that the elect of Matthew 24 is elect believers, then that would conflict with Matthew 25, the parable fo virgins.  It is all the same discourse.  It is disingenuous to go changing who the elect are in mid stream.  Those virgins are bridesmaids, whereas the redeemed elect that are part of Messiah are the bride of Yeshua.   Unless one is schizophrenic, Elect cannot alternate between groups in the same discourse.  

No way of getting around it.  The passage clearly is speaking of Jacob (Israel) which, as a national identity, is YHVH's Elect.  The church is not a nation.  And Paul makes that distinction.

Romans 10:19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:
“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”

Romans 11:26-29 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

There are only two groups, saved and unsaved and the saved are of the group from Gal 3, "If you are in Christ you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise."

This means the saved are of the faith of Abraham no matter their origin, and this is through Abraham's descendants; Isaac and Jacob, who is Israel, to any who are in Christ.

There is a nation of Israel but that nation has nothing to do with the faith of Abraham or his seed of faith: 

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

There is but one way, Christ, and one group, those in Christ who are the faith seed of Abraham, that are welcomed into the kingdom; all others, from any temporal nation including Israel, who are not in Christ and therefore not the seed of the promise God gave to Abraham, are the children of the flesh and in danger of perishing in eternal flame.

This is only division of mankind that exists in the Word of God.

The 'parable' of the virgins is not meant to be taken literally nor read into.

"Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened  

The word 'likened' here denotes a simile and give us context. This is about the kingdom of heaven and the rest of the parable will go on to explain the similarity between the 10 virgin and those waiting with expectation for the kingdom and the destiny of the faithful watchers compared to the unobservant.

unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Verse 13 sums it up saying the whole parable is about watching and being ready because Jesus will appear unexpectedly to the foolish.

 

[choir loft]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rather than actually responding to my rebuttal argument, you just went on another long name-calling diatribe. Clearly the spirit in you is one of an accuser. Jesus and His apostles never shied away from reasoned debate. Whereas it was the Pharisees that were quick to hurl accusations.

So any further reasoned debate with you is obviously pointless. Bye.

 

Exactly what foul name did I use to refer to anyone in particular?   Please be specific.   

I did not refer to anyone personally, but I did refer to a group of misguided persons generally.   Please read the post again.

"Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau

It is almost impossible to release a person from his or her mental chains.   Jesus tried it and it got Him killed.  Prophets of the old covenant tried it and got severe treatment as well.   If I am falsely accused I pretty much expect it.

I have also discovered that when false dogma is exposed for the lie it truly is I'm treated to some sort of character assassination, banning, or other false accusations.  

It is NOT my intent to insult anyone in particular.  

It IS my intent to express the confidence and courage and resolute attitude the Bible says God will supply.  If that means pointing out a lie and deception and the general gullibility of people to accept it simply because it's been repeated ad nauseam for one hundred fifty years or so, then that is exactly what I do.  It's human nature to believe lies especially when they come from religious and political leaders.  Are we not all of us encouraged to study the Word of God to learn the truth?  (2 Timothy 2:15)   The world is full of con artists and snake oil salesmen.   It is our duty to filter out their wickedness.

The Bible continually encourages us to have faith in the intention of God to deliver us THROUGH trouble, not in empty wishes to escape it.   We are told it is our duty to walk in faith (book of James) - to DO that which we are entitled and encouraged to DO.  There is some evidence that God even puts tests in our path to see if we will walk in His ways (book of Judges) or not.   There is a constant and consistent promise from Christ that even when we walk through the valley of the shadow of death He will be with us.  (Psalm 23 & Luke 23:43)

Ours is a god of mercy and struggle.   We struggle to walk by faith and in the conviction that He will be with us to help us every step of the way.  Many times we look back and find He has carried us THROUGH it all in spite of ourselves.  If God has the power and intention to carry us THROUGH tribulation, then why in heaven's name would He pull us out of it - especially when deliverance THROUGH trouble causes us to recognize and worship His benevolent deliverance?   If we escaped trouble we'd not see it.  Praise God that He is with me (and you too) THROUGH tribulation.   If it comes I welcome it because God will not abandon me.  

(Please remember that most interpretations of rapture escapism also state God's spirit will abandon the earth - withdrawal of restraint isn't the same thing.   He has said He will NEVER leave us.  Which is a lie of satan and which is a promise of a Holy and loving God?)  

It is to courage and a stout heart we sing ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS in worship services.  When was the last time you heard that?  When was the last time you sang that with the congregation?  Ours is a faith strewn with suffering, but in every instance Christ is with those who persevere.  

Christianity isn't about escapism.  

It's about participating in life's struggles even against evil itself.  To the victor go the rewards.  

Remember: God hates a coward and even the little the coward has will be taken from him. (Mark 4:25)

Be stalwart.  Be brave.  Be CHRISTIAN.

If there is any name I would hope to call you personally - it would be the name of a man of good courage, a Christian.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

   

Edited March 27, 2019 by choir loft
add scripture references

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

There are only two groups, saved and unsaved and the saved are of the group from Gal 3, "If you are in Christ you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise."

And right there is where you err.  Equating election with justification.   Also you err in that Israel's election is on a national, corporate level (Isaiah 45:4), not individual level like believers in the body.  

I think you need to get back to basics and then you will get a handle on this stuff.

[OldCoot]

16 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Christianity isn't about escapism.  

You bet it is!!   You need to study the Torah regarding what one would do if guilty of manslaughter.

Yeshua said on the cross "forgive them for they know not what they do".  We are all guilty of the murder of Yeshua. It is our sin that put Him on that cross.  He declared from the cross that we were not guilty of murder, but of manslaughter.

In the Torah, if one is guilty of manslaughter, they could flee to a city of refuge where they would be protected from the avenger of blood next of kin.  We are guilty of manslaughter regarding Yeshua.  We must flee to Him for protection from the wrath of the Father (avenger of blood).  The person would be protected there and could only be free to leave upon the death of the High Priest.  Yeshua is our High Priest so our protection forever as He will never die again.   

So Christianity is most definitely about escapism.  Escaping the punishment due us for our sin causing the death of Yeshua by fleeing to Him for His protection.  

If you don't want to escape that punishment, that is your call.  I sure do and that is why I have placed my trust in Yeshua!

[choir loft]

On 3/27/2019 at 8:37 AM, OldCoot said:

You bet it is!!   You need to study the Torah regarding what one would do if guilty of manslaughter.

Yeshua said on the cross "forgive them for they know not what they do".  We are all guilty of the murder of Yeshua. It is our sin that put Him on that cross.  He declared from the cross that we were not guilty of murder, but of manslaughter.

In the Torah, if one is guilty of manslaughter, they could flee to a city of refuge where they would be protected from the avenger of blood next of kin.  We are guilty of manslaughter regarding Yeshua.  We must flee to Him for protection from the wrath of the Father (avenger of blood).  The person would be protected there and could only be free to leave upon the death of the High Priest.  Yeshua is our High Priest so our protection forever as He will never die again.   

So Christianity is most definitely about escapism.  Escaping the punishment due us for our sin causing the death of Yeshua by fleeing to Him for His protection.  

If you don't want to escape that punishment, that is your call.  I sure do and that is why I have placed my trust in Yeshua!

Your post is an exercise in avoidance of the topic and of skewing the subject.   The topic is rapture.  The subject is escaping trouble in the world.  You didn't address either one.

Since you didn't bother to read my post I'll repeat the major points.   

The doctrine of the rapture is not Biblical in that it doesn't agree with the context of scripture.   Context of scripture states that God will be with us in times of difficulty - even tribulation.   It is a message of hope and courage.   Proponents of the rapture seek to ROB Christians of good courage by resorting to cheap mind games that admit of cowardice in the face of troubled times.   Does your church hope in escape or COURAGE in the face of trouble?  If not, where is its backbone?

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus quoted by John 17:15 

NOT refers to the attitudes of cowards who want to escape from the world's trouble.  It refuses to acknowledge the Biblical truth that "man is born to trouble"(Job 5:7) and that God hates a coward - going so far as to strip away the little a coward may possess (Mark 4:25).

Keeping disciples from the evil one is a promise and a blessed hope (1 Thessalonians 3:3) of those who live daily in Christ.  The Biblical context is a message of courage and sustaining resolution in the face of trouble.  It is a message of defiance in the face of worldly sin and degradation and persecution and tribulation - "when you see these things happening, look up and rejoice for your redemption draws near." (Jesus as quoted by Mark 13:29)

Biblical context of God and man in the midst of life and trouble does NOT consist of fantasies of escape from it.   Just for the record, I'm not talking about sin and justification here.  I'm addressing the basic philosophy of escapist dogma - the rapture.   

This hope, of God with us, is what I'm referring to.  It is the rock upon which Christian courage can be based.   Rapture doctrine is a dogma of fools and cowards who refuse to embrace trouble.

Bring on the tribulation !   

If I live through it I will live because of the mercy of Christ.  If I die in it I will enjoy the reward of seeing MY Lord in person.  There is no greater reward for courage in Christ.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

This is the day to be of good courage in Christ.  It is not a day for escapist religious propaganda.  The rapture is a lie of satan to defeat the courage and good heart of those who would follow Christ into the Valley of the Shadow of Death.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....  

Edited March 28, 2019 by choir loft
add scripture references

[OldCoot]

33 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Your post is an exercise in avoidance of the topic and of skewing the subject.   The topic is rapture.  The subject is escaping trouble in the world.  You didn't address either one.

Since you didn't bother to read my post I'll repeat the major points.   

The doctrine of the rapture is not Biblical in that it doesn't agree with the context of scripture.   Context of scripture states that God will be with us in times of difficulty - even tribulation.   It is a message of hope and courage.   Proponents of the rapture seek to ROB Christians of good courage by resorting to cheap mind games that admit of cowardice in the face of troubled times.   Does your church hope in escape or COURAGE in the face of trouble?  If not, where is its backbone?

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." - Jesus quoted by John 17:15 

NOT refers to the attitudes of cowards who want to escape from the world's trouble.  It refuses to acknowledge the Biblical truth that "man is born to trouble"(Job 5:7) and that God hates a coward - going so far as to strip away the little a coward may possess (Mark 4:25).

Keeping disciples from the evil one is a promise and a blessed hope (1 Thessalonians 3:3) of those who live daily in Christ.  The Biblical context is a message of courage and sustaining resolution in the face of trouble.  It is a message of defiance in the face of worldly sin and degradation and persecution and tribulation - "when you see these things happening, look up and rejoice for your redemption draws near." (Jesus as quoted by Mark 13:29)

Biblical context of God and man in the midst of life and trouble does NOT consist of fantasies of escape from it.   Just for the record, I'm not talking about sin and justification here.  I'm addressing the basic philosophy of escapist dogma - the rapture.   

This hope, of God with us, is what I'm referring to.  It is the rock upon which Christian courage can be based.   Rapture doctrine is a dogma of fools and cowards who refuse to embrace trouble.

Bring on the tribulation !   

If I live through it I will live because of the mercy of Christ.  If I die in it I will enjoy the reward of seeing MY Lord in person.  There is no greater reward for courage in Christ.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

This is the day to be of good courage in Christ.  It is not a day for escapist religious propaganda.  The rapture is a lie of satan to defeat the courage and good heart of those who would follow Christ into the Valley of the Shadow of Death.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....  

Ok.  Rapture is escapism just like being a Christian is.  I have no problem with the label as labels haven’t intimidated me since my Vietnam service days. I am fully pre-trib and an escapist. I also know I cannot lose my salvation.  How is all this possible?  Because I am confident in whom I have placed my trust.  If others aren’t, that is something they have to work thru.

[WilliamL]

Luke 21:26 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape out of all these things [in context, the things of the Great Tribulation] that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Rev. 7:9 After these things [in context, of the Great Tribulation] I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb... 14 These are the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation...

Jesus told us that the time will come when escaping will be a good thing. But some folks would rather boast in their own noble courage. Have at it.

After all, don't the Jews yearly celebrate their Exodus-era escape from Egypt? Maybe they should have stayed and toughed it out.

[choir loft]

20 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Ok.  Rapture is escapism just like being a Christian is.  I have no problem with the label as labels haven’t intimidated me since my Vietnam service days. I am fully pre-trib and an escapist. I also know I cannot lose my salvation.  How is all this possible?  Because I am confident in whom I have placed my trust.  If others aren’t, that is something they have to work thru.

 

You continue to mix oranges with apples.  That's fine with fruit salad, but it doesn't work with the Word of God - with religious philosophy.  There are certain things that are immutable and certain things that are false.  Accepting both is an aberration of logic.   It's like trying to mix oil and water.  Accepting both is the condition St. Paul refers to as being double-minded.  

"A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." - James 1:8

As you know the book of James is concerned with practical application of faith in real time - in real life - in real situations.   Today there's a separation between reality and religious philosophy that Christians wrongly embrace.  It should be one and the same, but in the post-modern church religious theory and religious practice are two different things, hence the label of double-mindedness.  Today's Christians generally accept sin and call morality a four letter word - so as to agree with the world.  The same is true for the philosophical aberration known as the rapture.  It is religious cowardice and God hates it.

I don't know why you brought up Vietnam.  That was a political situation that has been completely forgotten by the present generation on both sides of the Pacific.  I personally got more respect from Communist guerrillas back in the 70's than I got from Christians back home - then or now.  I discovered the truth of it when I shed my uniform and put on civvies.  Ideological differences are not understood by Americans and even less by professing Christians.  The only thing Christians understand is buzz words and slogans.  Trying to correct their thinking is like trying to raise the Titanic.  You only succeed in bits and pieces.

It takes a modicum of courage to recognize religious deception and to act accordingly against it.  For now at least one's life doesn't hang in the balance because of it - not in America anyway.  The logic of one's faith in the eyes of the world does matter!  It goes without saying that the veracity of the gospel is not what it once was for a variety of reasons.  The rapture is one of the illogical things the world as well as thinking Christians cannot and will not accept.

You said that you are confident in Christ in whom you've placed your trust.  Well said.  Unfortunately faith in Christ isn't the same thing as accepting an ideology like the rapture as truth.  In point of fact, the rapture does NOTHING positive with regard to faith in Christ.  Your own words seem to agree with this statement.  

Rapture believers act as though the dogma is the cornerstone of their stand for Jesus, but in fact it has nothing whatsoever to do with Bible based faith or prophecy.

The rapture DOES erode confidence in Christ's ability to deliver the believer from trouble.  

Instead of standing in confidence in the face of trouble, post-modern Christians are persuaded to believe a lie that they will be excused from life threatening troubles by means of evac into the clouds.  It doesn't work that way! Christians aren't called to serve in a cold LZ.  We are called to battle as Christ goes on before us, with us and even as He covers our six.    

During my military service I lived through several times when divine providence delivered me and the men I was with from death (sometimes at the hands of our own people, but that's another story).  Consequently I was politicized and have never believed the government about anything.  The same is true for religious leaders who promote cowardice in the face of conflict - by means of the rapture ideology (among other things).  

Jesus won't return before the time, during the half-time show, or during OT to evac Protestant Christians only.   He will return at the appropriate time for all the world to see.

Think about it brother.   It will cost you nothing to consider it and you will lose nothing by rejecting the rapture lie.

that's me hollering from the choir loft......

Edited March 29, 2019 by choir loft
correct references