Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

53 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

No.  You believe the Word of God as written by your pre-trib mentors who have deceived you, and which you attribute to your "Pentecostal" spiritual superiority, and going camping.  You're mentors have complicated the rapture so much that the endless contradictions can only be overcome by more "pre-trib fabrications." More and more of these contradictions continue to surface every year, and that's why more fabrications come along.  It's truly amazing. In your case, being a Pentecostal Christian doesn't make you the sharpest tool in the drawer.

I'm sure the readers who come here don't convert to pre-trib.  Pre-trib is losing ground like crazy.  You are perpetually deceived.

You keep going on as if I am the one in error - when exactly the opposite is true. My only "mentor" is the Holy Spirit and I can assure you He is not deceived! 

If you wish to be left behind when Jesus comes pretrib FOR his church, that is OK with me. But why do you wish to take others through hell on earth with you? Pretrib is TRUTH, and God has created and escape from what is coming if you want it. Clearly you do not.

For the readers, Luke 21:36 speaks of this escape. Paul told us in his rapture dialog in 1 Thes. that there is an escape from the sudden destruction start of the Day of the Lord and that escape is the rapture. Those living in the Light of the Gospel will get raptured and so get saved from the wrath of God, while those living in the darkness cannot get this escape, so they will suffer or die.

Fixerupper does not want this escape. Perhaps he imagines he is super-believer and will not be overcome by the Beast. That is wishful thinking because the WORD of God is that the saints will be overcome. So while God declares that He will set no appointments with God's wrath, Fixerupper is determined to set his own.

Readers, there is a choice: we can escape what is coming, according to Luke 21:36, or we can ignore God's escape and set our own appointments. It is really that simple. Since Fixerupper has chosen to face the Beast, I wish him the best of luck.

[ENOCH2010]

Lamad are those saints that get overcome not going to be included in the church 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

Or its best to stick with scripture to determine that for you.

 those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and dexchange presents, because these two prophets ehad been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

Rejoice, exchanging presents no more torment.....sense of peace and safety.

..........cliffhanger.........

Then the two witnessess ressurected.

Look at the reaction of the people

and great fear fell on those who saw them.

This is the first evidence of any reaction to witnessing a resurrection.

The word  megas (great) is in the widest sense. Their fear of what they just witnessed was beyond measure. That means this is the first time these people have ever seen a ressurection, in order to have such totality of fear.

Right at the last trumpet Rev 11:15

Right at the place where the dead are to be judged.

Right at the time to reward his servants

Right at the time Rev 11:18 your wrath has come

Right at sudden destruction,  destroying the destroyers of the earth.

When we look at everything else that has happened, I still prefer a day like today. However, I will admit you make a point here.

You are mistaken as to the time: yes, it is written in chapter 11, but as a parenthesis: I don't understand why you don't get this:

We have two periods of 1260 days. In chapter 11, the first 1260 are finished. Chapter 11:1 may be on day 1256 of the first half. And HERE is where the Two witnesses suddenly appear. 

They appear on day 1256 of the first half meaning only 3 1/2 days left of the first half of the week. And you would have them testify for only 3 1/2 days and then die! No, that is not the author's intent! 

They will testify for their given 1260 days which will take them almost to the end of the 70th week - only 3 1/2 days left before the week ends.

Next, you are mistaken about everything else.  All the verbs in verse 18 are aorist verbs that show no tense: all but two of them:

were angry: Aorist no tense

is come: Aorist: no tense

judged: Aorist: no tense

give (rewards):Aorist: no tense

Fear (thy name) is present tense

Destroy (them that destroy the earth): Aorist: no tense

Them which destroy: present

I am a stickler for saying that events happen right where John first mentions them, as in the two witnesses suddenly showing up in 11:3, and that the marriage and supper will happen when mentioned.  However, I take an exception when I find the things mentioned in one place but happening later on.  For example, the two witnesses are not mentioned again. I am convinced when John first sees them, that is when they show up. Another example, the marriage and supper are never mentioned again.

Here, we see rewards: but notice:

Revelation 22:12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

At the midpoint is not where these rewards are given out: Jesus brings them and we receive them after He comes. Therefore, "that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;" is a prophecy of a soon to come event, but does not take place here at the midpoint.

 

" the time of the dead, that they should be judged "  We see that some judging does not take place until after the 1000 years. Therefore, this is given as a prophecy and will not take place here.

 

thy wrath is come  is an Aorist verb that shows no tense at all. This therefore does not tell us that God's wrath STARTS here, it only tells us it exists here.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Lamad are those saints that get overcome not going to be included in the church 

I think they will be, if they lose their head and make it to heaven as shown in Rev. 15.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

I never claimed it wasnt a parenthesis.  Its additonal information within the trumpets.

Where do you get the idea of the 7th trumpet being midpoint?

You are blatanly denying a function of Christs authority that being the time to judge the dead at his appearance.

I don't care what you say, Jesus does NOT "appear" at the 7th trumpet.

AS for the midpoint: it was the first thing Jesus sent me to find. It was the first time I heard His voice concerning Revelation. I was reading Daniel 9:27, and when I got to the word "midst" He spoke:  "You could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation. Then He told me how I would find it. 

However, if you are willing to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory, it would make no difference where God put the midpoint. You do remember, Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they saw the abomination? You do know according to Daniel that the event that stops the daily sacrifice will divide the week into two equal halves? You do know that Paul wrote of the man of sin entering the most holy place in the temple and declaring he is God? That event will stop the daily sacrifices. That event will divide the week into two equal halves. And the fleeing will be only a second or two after the man of sin declares himself God.  (Give them a second for reaction time.)

That fleeing begins as seen in Rev. 12:6. Therefore, the exact midpoint will be a second or two before 12.6 in John's narrative. From that point, back up and find some kind of "marker." Jesus told me it was "clearly marked." He also told me the entire 70th week is clearly marked with the same marker.

Make no mistake: the 70th week is marked by 7's.  You can believe that or not, but it will be the truth either way.

I know that many people believe Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet. Sorry, but that is false doctrine. Please tell me you don't believe it.

Edited July 20, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Those werent my words, those were the words of scripture. 

I searched: no word "appear" appears in chapter 11. Is that wishful thinking? Imagination?

Neither is there a "coming."

As I said, this is the MIDPOINT: He does not come at the midpoint. He will come AFTER the days of GT.

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Christ confirmed a covenant with many and sacrifices ended

 

Again not my words but scripture

Sorry, but you missed it again. The sacrifices continued on until AD 70. And they will begin yet again - soon.

In reality this covenant is between God the FAther and God the Son.  No man can mess up this New Covenant.  Jesus offered Himself and took the sins of the whole world. And God declared that justice was done: it was enough. The price of sin is now paid in full for every human on the planet. Too bad most of them don't even know it.

The covenant confirmed with many has not yet been confirmed. And that too is scripture.

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for MANY.

 

Now when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices

 

sacrifices and offerings will come to an end” (Daniel 9:27)

That is a VERY poor translation. And your theory about this verse missed the mark by a country mile.

The truth is, the daily sacrifices will begin once again, in a new Temple in Jerusalem. And the Beast to come, the one that will confirm this covenant, will stop the sacrifices. Have you not read what Paul wrote, that the man of sin will enter the most holy place and declare he is God? That will immediately stop the daily sacrifices for the temple will have to be cleansed.  This is what Dan. 9:27 is talking about. It is FUTURE. (By the way, that is not a bad word.)

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

The only person rearranging Revelation is you.

 

When scripture clearly markes the resurrection to occur at the last trumpet and one turns to Revelation and actually finds a literal resurrection at the last trumpet of Revelation, you then move that ressurection away from the last trumpet to end of the bowls.

Sorry, but this is entirely myth.  John CLEARLY calls his 7th trumpet the 7th, not "the last." It is complete myth that the 7th trumpet in Revelation is Paul's "last trump." Just get over it. It is wrong and it is a myth. the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT.  You can take that to the bank.  Jesus said it, I believe it, and it is settled forever with me.  Jesus does not return in power until after the entire week is finished. To even imagine a coming at the midpoint of the week must be to imagine a 4th coming.

By the way, just so you will finally know, the resurrection of the Bride of Christ will come before the 7th trumpet, and the resurrection of the Old Testament saints and the trib saints who are martyred will be AFTER the 7th trumpet.  Remember chapter 20? Don't even think of telling us that chapter 20 really happens at the 7th seal!

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

In no scene ever depicted in the entirety of the bowls would there be a place where the wicked would be exchanging gifts in peace and safety.

It is scripture. You can argue with scripture if you choose: but it is not wise. And by the way, NO ONE SAID they would exchange gifts "in peace and safety." Is that the proverbial red herring or a non sequitur?

Again, just so you will know  - now and forever - "peace and safety" is a phase related to the time the dead in Christ shall rise....a day like today.

By the way, there won't be much "peace and safety" after the 6th trumpet judgment when 1/3 of earth's population is wiped out.

Edited July 21, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Which would be more inline with the 5th seal

Now Christ speaks to all of us, you DO NOT own the monopoly on Christ. Nor do you own authority to place what you learnt beyond testing....with the Jesus card..... However you are with out a doubt answerable in your ability in listening to Christ. 

Here we go again, another rearranging.  The dragon went after those who fled, but soon realized that they were supernaturally protected, so He then will turn to the remnant of her offspring: those left behind that became believers. And this happens AFTER the 7th trumpet has sounded. There is no need to imagine this happens somewhere else! John and the Holy Spirit put it HERE. It fits for it is right after the Dragon is cast down, and very angry about that.

You are MILES off: the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age.

Of course I don't have a monopoly on Christ. As for hearing Him, sorry, but your theories show no evidence of that. Your theories on Revelation are all man made.

[iamlamad]

Just now, inchrist said:

You have no scripture stating the antichrist signs a covenant with many, which we do with Christ. The biggest mystake is to apply the assumption of a verse. Scripture must interpret scripture.

Further your faulty flaw is not observing the prophecy from Gods perspective. Which is ironic since it was God who gave the prophecy.

²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

[7 weeks first] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off........this could mean into the 70th week but Daniel did not write it that way.

but not for himself:  He paid for the sins of the world for all generations.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary:  Most commentators agree this is a reference to Titus and the Roman soldiers. In other words, Daniel quit writing of the Messiah and switched to another prince. It works for me. I think this is the intended meaning. We know from history that this is how Jerusalem was destroyed.

and the end thereof shall be with a flood:  I am unclear of a flood except the one mentioned in Rev. 12. My guess is, the Romans came like a flood: when a flood comes, there is not a dry spot anywhere. The Romans were in every direction from the city.

unto the end of the war desolations are determined:  The end what war? In context it would be the end of Israel in 70 AD.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week  Almost universally believed to refer to a different prince than the one that came to destroy the city, but a price of the came type: in other words, a future prince that shall come to destroy the city.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate:  The KJV left out the word "wing" which I take for a part of the temple. The commentators do not have much agreement on this part of the verse.

even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. I am convinced this "end" refers to the same end we see in Rev. 19 when Jesus returns.

[iamlamad]

48 minutes ago, inchrist said:

 

Quote

Sorry, but this is entirely myth.  John CLEARLY calls his 7th trumpet the 7th, not "the last

So the 7th trumpet isnt the last trumpet of Revelation, can you provide me scripture of another trumpet mentioned in revelation after the 7th trumpet? Is there an 8th trumpet im unaware of?

The problem is, you are presupposing that Paul's "last trump" must be the last trump in Revelation! Sorry, Revelation was not written when Paul wrote, his letters to the Thessalonians.

Did Paul mean the last trump ever to be sounded? VERY doubtful.

Did Paul mean the last trump of a series of trumpet blasts? Probably.

Did Paul mean the 7th trumpet of Revelation? VERY doubtful.

51 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Provide me the equivalent of the following for the antichrist

 

Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for MANY.

Touche! Good verse.  But: Daniel wrote, " he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." I cannot even imagine that God's covenant would be for a week. I have to go back and  find who this he is attached to. I can only come up with the prince that came and destroyed the city.

 

55 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Quote

 It is complete myth that the 7th trumpet in Revelation is Paul's "last trump." Just get over it. 

 

So its a myth that we have a ressurection occuring at the 7th trumpet verse? Can someone here please turn to Rev 11 and confirm with me they see a ressurection occuring at the 7th trumpet verse.

Yes, it is complete myth. It is written in chapter 11 that the two witnesses are resurrected - but with careful study we know this actually resurrection will come after they have testified for 1260 days, so that would take them almost to the end of the week. In reality then, they will resurrect with all the rest of the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial of Rev. 16.

Since you mentioned one specific verse:

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Sorry, no resurrection here.

59 minutes ago, inchrist said:

But i guess that must be coincidental that in the entirety of Revelation where we find the only passage of any literal resurrection is right at the 7th trumpet verse being the last trumpet ever metioned in the entirety of scripture. Can you explain to me why that's been placed there?

Paul did not say his "last trump" would be the last in scripture - or the last of anything. We must determine last of what...by study. Common sense tells me it is not the last trumpet sound every to be heard on earth.  Without a doubt there will be trumpets during the millennial reign.  Paul could have meant the last of a certain series of trumpet sounds, or perhaps the last trumpet sound of a dispensation.

I doubt if Paul had any idea of the 7 trumpets of Revelation. His "last trump" is quite likely tied to the Feast of trumpets. What comes after the feast of trumpets? The seven days of awe. It is possible the bride will be in heaven for 7 years? I think so.

From Chuck Missler's writings:

September 25th is also known as Yom Teruah, the Feast of Trumpets.³ Observed on the First and Second of Tishri, the celebration actually begins 29 days earlier: a series of over 90 trumpet blasts accrue for a final blowing of blasts on the climax of the celebration, the Teki'ah Gedolah, the Great Blowing.

In the rabbinical literature, there are many details that are quite provocative. Among the most significant is the use of the shofar, the ram's horn, instead of the usual silver Temple trumpets. (If you visit the Temple Institute in Jerusalem, you can see the silver trumpets that have been fashioned for use in the coming Temple.)

The shofar is associated with the Akedah, Abraham's offering of Isaac on Mount Moriah, as detailed in Genesis 22. Rabbinical tradition associates the left horn of the ram as the "first trump" and the right horn as the "last trump".

A distinguishing feature of the celebration is the last, climactic blast, the Teki'at Shofar. This is not the usual series of short bursts, signalling alarm or bad news. Rather, it is a long blast, signalling victory or good news. It is this last blast that is referred to as the last trump.

This works for me.

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Really, can you show me where exactly in Revelation is peace and safety?

Can you show us where the rapture is delineated in Revelation? People have been guessing for centuries, so it is NOT plainly and clearly laid out for us. Pretribbers have for years suggested Rev. 4:1. I think that is a pitiful excuse for good exegesis.

John apparently did not see the rapture, so did not write of it. Why then would we expect him to write of "peace and safety?" That was Paul's thing. HE got the revelation of the rapture of the church.

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

So the inhabitants of the earth exchange gives and celebrating isnt peace and safety to you? Can you please explain to me what that is then? With scripture. 

You are the one that seems to imagine these two things must go together. So you prove this with scripture. The truth is, gifts can be exchanged during a war, and probably have.

Question: would people be saying "peace and safety" because they desperately WANT peace and safety?

Or would they be more likely to be saying this in a TIME of peace and safety?

Since Paul ends with "then sudden destruction comes" It would be far more likely Paul's meaning is people living in peace, just as we are today.  Will there be "peace and safety" just before the battle of Armageddon? I don't think so.

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

 

Quote

 Again, just so you will know  - now and forever - "peace and safety" is a phase related to the time the dead in Christ shall rise.

The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them,and they stood on their feet

I suspect you are the only believer ever in 2000 years to imagine "peace and safety" fits with sending gifts shown in Revelation. I don't think they were ever meant to be together.  And you are still mistaken on the TIMING of when they rise. You imagine they testify during the first half of the week. You are in error there. They SHOW UP SUDDENLY (out of thin air, so to speak) right after the gentile armies arrive in Jerusalem and the city will begin being trampled.  And that point in time is JUST BEFORE the abomination.

 

[fixerupper]

It just stikes me odd that the resurrection of the dead and gathering would come at the sound of a Jewish trumpet, a religion that denies the Christ anyway.

Learn something about trumpets Lamad...

Trump, Trumpet:  

Transliteration salpigx

is used

(1) of the natural instrument, 1Cr 14:8;

(2) of the supernatural accompaniment of Divine interpositions,

(a) at Sinai, Hbr 12:19;

(b) of the acts of angels at the Second Advent of Christ, Mat 24:31;

(c) of their acts in the period of Divine judgments preceding this, Rev 8:2, 6, 13; 9:14;

(d) of a summons to John to the presence of God, Rev 1:10; 4:1;

_____________________________

Trump, Trumpet: Transliteration salpizō

"to sound a trumpet" (salpinx), occurs in Mat 6:2; 1Cr 15:52, "the trumpet shall sound;" Rev 8:6-8, 10, 12, 13; 9:1, 13; 10:7; 11:15.

101

Verb

Strong's Number: g4537

Greek: salpizo

"to sound a trumpet," Mat 6:2; as in (2) (c) above, Rev 8:6-8, 10, 12, 13; 9:1, 13; 10:7; 11:15; as in (2) (e) 1Cr 15:52.

(e) of the act of the Lord in raising from the dead the saints who have fallen asleep and changing the bodies of those who are living, at the Rapture of all to meet Him in the air, 1Cr 15:52, where "the last trump" is a military allusion, familiar to Greek readers, and has no connection with the series in Rev 8:6 to 11:15; there is a possible allusion to Num 10:2-6, with reference to the same event, 1Th 4:16, "the (lit., a) trump of God" (the absence of the article suggests the meaning "a trumpet such as is used in God's service").

There are seven trumpets in Revelation.  All others are things that sound "as or like a trumpet."

Pre-trib.  Full of complications.  Full of fabrications.  Full of contradictions.  And they don't care.  They prefer to stay true to the false deceitful teaching than to the teachings of Jesus...

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.   And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

_______________________________________

(Matt. 13:30, 39. Mathew 24:31.)

He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?   But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.