Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

But perhaps you might have the best approach, pan trib, it will all pan it - indeed it will. 

Yeah, that seems to be the best approach. 

Whether Tribulation is not wrath or it is, I guess it depends on how those that will go thru that time will see it.  We can have our little arguments over what it will be, but the only ones who will be able to give a definitive answer will be those who live thru it.  And the major focus of it is Israel.  The church isn't even mentioned.  Now, considering that twice as many Hebrews are killed during this time as were killed in WW II, my guess is that they would consider the entire period a pretty bad one. 

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by OldCoot

[fixerupper]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

The beast prevails for a time as allowed by God for a distinct purpose, purification, either the individual repents and is purified or they do not. These are the saints, individuals, the beast will make war with and overcome. The purification process for the corporate church, made up of individual saints, will weed out all spot and blemish and the church will stand forever even as spots and blemishes within the true church were removed, or prevailed over. If we understand our destiny as believers is spiritual and eternal, we can see that even if the body is overcome the spirit lives on by the grace of God purified by the blood of the Lamb. The beast may overcome the physical body but all the power of hell cannot defeat the Spirit.

And what a difference that is to pre-trib who believes they are removed BEFORE the tribulation and those left behind persecuted.  Some pre-tribbers believe the pipe dream that the holy spirit is removed and you can't be saved during the tribulation unless you're beheaded, an Islamic tradition.  When the purpose of the tribulation is just as you said, "PURIFICATION."

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

The beast prevails for a time as allowed by God for a distinct purpose, purification, either the individual repents and is purified or they do not. These are the saints, individuals, the beast will make war with and overcome. The purification process for the corporate church, made up of individual saints, will weed out all spot and blemish and the church will stand forever even as spots and blemishes within the true church were removed, or prevailed over. If we understand our destiny as believers is spiritual and eternal, we can see that even if the body is overcome the spirit lives on by the grace of God purified by the blood of the Lamb. The beast may overcome the physical body but all the power of hell cannot defeat the Spirit.

So Satan is the one who will purify the church.  Wow.  I'll bet he never had that in mind.  Actually, a new on on me also.

[fixerupper]

23 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

So Satan is the one who will purify the church.  Wow.  I'll bet he never had that in mind.  Actually, a new on on me also.

Nobody said Satan will purify the Church.  Through tribulation the church is purified.  It's you guys who say the tribulation is "the Day of the Lord."

God used persecution and tribulation to bring people back to Him often.  The man of sin is used by God to bring Israel back to Him.

[OldCoot]

Well, we may say it is the "day of the Lord" probably because most of the OT prophets referred to it as such.  Just repeating the mantra.  I don't see any indication in scripture that the church is the focus of what is needing to be purified.  All I see is driving national Israel to the wall to get them finally realize what they should have realized almost 2000 years ago.  All I see of saints is being slaughtered and prevailed against by Satan, and the rest of mankind refusing to change their tune.   Again, the church isn't even mentioned as an entity in view during this period.

Edited July 27, 2017 by OldCoot

[fixerupper]

43 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Well, we may say it is the "day of the Lord" probably because most of the OT prophets referred to it as such.  Just repeating the mantra.  I don't see any indication in scripture that the church is the focus of what is needing to be purified.  All I see is driving national Israel to the wall to get them finally realize what they should have realized almost 2000 years ago.  All I see of saints is being slaughtered and prevailed against by Satan, and the rest of mankind refusing to change their tune.   Again, the church isn't even mentioned as an entity in view during this period.

http://www.alankurschner.com/2011/12/15/why-is-the-word-church-not-mentioned-in-revelation-4–21/#wrap

Paul only mentioned the term “church” once in the first chapter of his epistle to the Galatians. Do not Galatians chapters 2–6 apply to the church? The same can be said of 2 Thessalonians; the term “church” is only mentioned in chapter one. And in Colossians, the term is mentioned in the first and last chapters of the book. Does not the body of the letter to the Colossians apply to the church? So this method consistently applied is senseless.

Second, the word “church” is absent from the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church?

Third, the word “church” is absent from rapture passages: 1Thessalonians 4:13–17 and John 14:1–4. Following their logic, are we right to conclude that the church will not be raptured? Of course not!

Fourth, the word “church” is absent from the heavenly scenes in Revelation 4–5. 

Fifth, nowhere in the book of Revelation does the use of the word “church” ever denote the Church in its totality nor in the sense of the faithful universal church. Every mention of church(es) in Revelation denotes historical local churches in first century Asia Minor. 

http://www.alankurschner.com/2011/12/15/why-is-the-word-church-not-mentioned-in-revelation-4–21/#wrap

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

[n2thelight]

God warns in Eph 6:13, the letter to the church, “that you may be able to withstand in the evil day.”

How are you going to be able to withstand that evil day if you believe you’re not going to be here, you are not prepared.

What is the evil day?

 

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

http://www.alankurschner.com/2011/12/15/why-is-the-word-church-not-mentioned-in-revelation-4–21/#wrap

Paul only mentioned the term “church” once in the first chapter of his epistle to the Galatians. Do not Galatians chapters 2–6 apply to the church? The same can be said of 2 Thessalonians; the term “church” is only mentioned in chapter one. And in Colossians, the term is mentioned in the first and last chapters of the book. Does not the body of the letter to the Colossians apply to the church? So this method consistently applied is senseless.

Second, the word “church” is absent from the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church?

Third, the word “church” is absent from rapture passages: 1Thessalonians 4:13–17 and John 14:1–4. Following their logic, are we right to conclude that the church will not be raptured? Of course not!

Fourth, the word “church” is absent from the heavenly scenes in Revelation 4–5. 

Fifth, nowhere in the book of Revelation does the use of the word “church” ever denote the Church in its totality nor in the sense of the faithful universal church. Every mention of church(es) in Revelation denotes historical local churches in first century Asia Minor. 

http://www.alankurschner.com/2011/12/15/why-is-the-word-church-not-mentioned-in-revelation-4–21/#wrap

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

The whole idea was that the church is not mentioned as an entity in view during the great tribulation period. The fact that you are making yourself look ridiculous by over dramatizing the issue to the extreme doesn't help the discussion.  From Pentacost after Jesus' resurrection till the Great Tribulation period, the church is main focus.  During the Great Tribulation, Israel is the main focus, both OT and NT.    Isaiah shows that the redeemed are hidden during this time, along with the dead that are resurrected.  David, in the Psalms, says similar.  Zephaniah backs them up also. That is three separate individual writers that had no association during the time when each of them lived that substantiate a removal of the righteous, and the righteous being hid during this specific time in future history.

Keep in mind, the only scriptures available to the Bereans (in Acts) was the OT, for which they were commended by Paul for searching daily to prove what Paul said was true.  The Mosaic Law requires that two or more witnesses be required for a matter to be supported.  We have those in the OT and the NT.  I follow that prescription, and I do not accept any position on such matters without clear support in the OT as well as the NT.  If you don't accept that prescription in the Mosaic law about two or more witnesses, remember, that is why Jesus told the woman that was caught in adultery that He did not condemn her after all the others had left.  There was not two or more witnesses left to condemn her, and He would have violated the law He gave Moses if He would have condemned her on His own.

If you can show, that the church (ekklesia) is clearly identified as an entity in view during the Great Tribulation period, Daniel's 70th week, Time of Jacob's trouble, whatever label you put on it, it would be worthy of consideration.  Suffering tribulation has been the hallmark of all that revered God since almost the dawn of time.  That is not the same as the Great Tribulation period, wrath or not.  

None of these following examples are remotely considered The Great Tribulation: The Israelites endured hardship and tribulation under the yoke of Egypt and Babylon.  Job endured tribulation at the hands of Satan himself.  The Thessalonians were undergoing severe tribulation, which caused Paul to write them that they were NOT in the Great Tribulation, because some knot head had written to the Thessalonians, using Paul's name, and stirred them up that they were.  Evidently they had the forerunners of what we deal with today.  

Edited July 27, 2017 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, n2thelight said:

God warns in Eph 6:13, the letter to the church, “that you may be able to withstand in the evil day.”

How are you going to be able to withstand that evil day if you believe you’re not going to be here, you are not prepared.

What is the evil day?

 

Just about any day that one has to face evil. We are to ALWAYS appropriate the whole armor of God.  There is no indication in that passage regarding putting on the whole armor of God that it means the great climactic "Day of the Lord", Great Tribulation period, Time of Jacob's Trouble, etc.  

You changed the words. Nice slight of hand by those that have an agenda.  You used "that evil day" in your highlighted portion, when the scripture clearly says "the evil day".  You are imposing your own spin on what the scripture says.  Naughty, naughty.

Edited July 27, 2017 by OldCoot

[n2thelight]

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Just about any day that one has to face evil. We are to ALWAYS appropriate the whole armor of God.  There is no indication in that passage regarding putting on the whole armor of God that it means the great climactic "Day of the Lord", Great Tribulation period, Time of Jacob's Trouble, etc.  

You changed the words. Nice slight of hand by those that have an agenda.  You used "that evil day" in your highlighted portion, when the scripture clearly says "the evil day".  You are imposing your own spin on what the scripture says.  Naughty, naughty.

The that whatever,the day is when satan appears as the antichrist.

No different than the day of the Lord being that day,dosn't change the fact of what day it is.

May not be indicative to you ,but to me it can only mean a particular day.

 

Also it says in the evil day,not the evil days as you suggest .

 

Is satan here now?No he's not