Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

Steve Conley wrote, 

Classic dispensational teaching has the Church removed from the earth prior to the commencement of Daniel’s seventieth week. In standard dispensational thinking the last seven years of this age are exclusively for the nation of Israel with the Church being raptured before it begins.

Steve, untold millions believe this because the scriptures rightly divided and understood tell us this! 

Did you know? Probably less that 1% of believers around the world know where the 70th week begins and ends in Revelation. And probably the same number cannot correctly find where the rapture will be in John's narrative. Yet they claim "pretrib," "posttrib", or "prewrath," thinking they know. 

[iamlamad]

2 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

There are several visitors recently bringing with them entirely false teachings.   After being alerted several times,  warned, and even shown from Scripture the truth,  they have been sticking with their corrupt teaching instead of repenting and instead of learning the truth.   Arguing, debating, discussing with them is futile and their false message has wasted a lot of people's time and badly affected a lot of people's souls online and offline in person.

Finally, Jeff, you and I are in 100% agreement here! 

[iamlamad]

Steve Conley wrote,

The deliverance that is spoken of at the end of verse 32 takes place at the end of the seventieth week and is therefore not part of the Church Age. Peter says that the Church Age will end when the Day of the LORD arrives. It is at this point that Jesus said that He would send His angels to gather His own unto Himself (Matt 24:31).

Steve, many many people have tried to make the gathering in Matthew 24 equal to Paul's rapture. It is not and I am amazed, you here attempting to teach others don't know this. Did you ever read where these in Matthew 24 are gathered FROM?

Did you not understand in 1 thes 4 & 5 that Paul's rapture would be the trigger for the Day of the Lord, and that John shows us THE DAY begins at the 6th seal, over 7 years before Jesus coming as shown in Rev. 19? 

You remind me of Socrates famous saying, "the ills of the whole world are caused by those who THINK they know, when, in fact, they don't. 

Steve, you think you know, when in fact, you don't. Most of what you have written can be disproved by scripture correctly understood. 

[simplejeff]

13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Finally, Jeff, you and I are in 100% agreement here! 

No,  sorry.  See the lack of understanding in yourself!?  It seems that you are one of the ones bringing completely false teachings as already posted many times by several posters.

[iamlamad]

Steve Conley wrote,

It is also important to notice that Gentiles are still being added to Christ in the great tribulation. In Rev 7:9-17, the innumerable multitude seen before the throne which are said to be "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" most certainly includes Gentiles and appears to be predominately Gentiles. These were said to have come out of great tribulation

 

Steve, Steve, Steve! Did you never take notice that chapter 7 comes in John's narrative BEFORE He has even started the 70th week?  (Just so you will know the truth, the 70th week BEGINS with the 7th seal.)

Did you never notice that John used those two words "great tribulation" before, and was certainly NOT referring to the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. He was speaking to people living in that church at that time. 

My point? God considers the entire church age as great tribulation. When Jesus spoke of "those days" of "great tribulation" those two words were not enough and He had to go on and say that there has never been and never will be again, days so terrible.

What you have failed to recognize is that this large group, TOO LARGE to number, is the just raptured church. OF COURSE they are mostly Gentile. Blindness has been put on the Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. 

Did you not notice at the 5th seal that God is looking for a certain number? He KNOWS how many will be martyred. 

Green's Literal Translation 1993

And there was given to each one a white robe. And it was said to them that they should rest yet a little time, until might be fulfilled also the number of their fellow-slaves and their brothers, those being about to be killed, even as they.

The martyrs will be numbered. They are FEW in relation to the number of the body of Christ. 

Finally, according to Paul in Thes. the rapture will come just before the 6th seal. Therefore one would EXPECT John to see either the rapture or the raptured church in heaven. He wrote that He saw this huge crowd, too large to number in the throne room of heaven. Make no mistake, THIS is the raptured church, safely in heaven, before John even begins the 70th week of Daniel.

And you are here attempting to teach others? 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

 

Readers, this visual is MYTH and cannot be supported by scripture correctly understood. 

The days of Great Tribulation as spoken by Jesus come near the END of Daniel's 70th week. God pours out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT.  Notice that the beheaded saints (beheaded by the Beasts of chapter 13) only begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15. 

The truth is, the first 5 seals are church age and opened by Jesus as soon as He ascended, as shown by Rev. 5. 

Daniel's 70th week will be 7 years of 360 day years. There will be 1260 days in the first half, and 1260 days in the last half. There will be 42 months in the first half, and 42 months in the last half. The abomination spoken of my Daniel and Jesus will be what divides the week.  The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven at the moment the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. That event will STOP the daily sacrifices (Dan 9:27) and will divide the week. A second or two after, those in Judea will begin to flee: Rev. 12:6.

As John clearly shows us, the Day of the Lord BEGINS at the 6th seal, before the 70th week begins. This chart is wrong on all points.

Readers, if someone is trying to teach you prewrath, RUN! It is not the intent of scripture.

[iamlamad]

24 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

No,  sorry.  See the lack of understanding in yourself!?  It seems that you are one of the ones bringing completely false teachings as already posted many times by several posters.

Jeff, that is in your own mind and your own thinking.  You imagine I don't understand because I don't agree with you - meaning you are sure YOU are right.  I guess everyone here thinks they are right. 

By the way, the VAST majority of the church today believes in premillennialism and a pretrib rapture.  Your theories are somewhere out in left field or entirely out of the ball park.

 

It seems then, I was agreeing with your words, but not with your thinking.

Edited March 1, 2018 by iamlamad

[Steve Conley]

46 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Readers, this visual is MYTH and cannot be supported by scripture correctly understood. 

The days of Great Tribulation as spoken by Jesus come near the END of Daniel's 70th week. God pours out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT.  Notice that the beheaded saints (beheaded by the Beasts of chapter 13) only begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15. 

The truth is, the first 5 seals are church age and opened by Jesus as soon as He ascended, as shown by Rev. 5. 

Daniel's 70th week will be 7 years of 360 day years. There will be 1260 days in the first half, and 1260 days in the last half. There will be 42 months in the first half, and 42 months in the last half. The abomination spoken of my Daniel and Jesus will be what divides the week.  The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven at the moment the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. That event will STOP the daily sacrifices (Dan 9:27) and will divide the week. A second or two after, those in Judea will begin to flee: Rev. 12:6.

As John clearly shows us, the Day of the Lord BEGINS at the 6th seal, before the 70th week begins. This chart is wrong on all points.

Readers, if someone is trying to teach you prewrath, RUN! It is not the intent of scripture.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Readers take note: John shows God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal, but in Revelation that is 3 1/2 years before the midpoint of the week! In other words, before the week begins. Understand, readers, that the book of Revelation IS that book in the Father;s hand from chapter 8 onward. this book is sealed by 7 seals. All 7 must be opened before the book can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments, which are written INSIDE the book.

Therefore, to imagine the seals inside the 70th week is simply not truth. The trumpet judgments come in the first half of the week.

 

The days of GT that Jesus spoke of will not begin until after the man of sin and False Prophet create the image and mark and then begin to enforce them. 

 

He has divided Satan's wrath and God's wrath, but in truth, they come AT THE SAME TIME and cannot be separated. God will use the vials of His wrath to shorten the days of GT.

[Steve Conley]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Readers, this visual is MYTH and cannot be supported by scripture correctly understood. 

The days of Great Tribulation as spoken by Jesus come near the END of Daniel's 70th week. God pours out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT.  Notice that the beheaded saints (beheaded by the Beasts of chapter 13) only begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15. 

The truth is, the first 5 seals are church age and opened by Jesus as soon as He ascended, as shown by Rev. 5. 

Daniel's 70th week will be 7 years of 360 day years. There will be 1260 days in the first half, and 1260 days in the last half. There will be 42 months in the first half, and 42 months in the last half. The abomination spoken of my Daniel and Jesus will be what divides the week.  The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven at the moment the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. That event will STOP the daily sacrifices (Dan 9:27) and will divide the week. A second or two after, those in Judea will begin to flee: Rev. 12:6.

As John clearly shows us, the Day of the Lord BEGINS at the 6th seal, before the 70th week begins. This chart is wrong on all points.

Readers, if someone is trying to teach you prewrath, RUN! It is not the intent of scripture.

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I say this to the readers of this comment. This deceiver has been given numerous opportunities to respond in repentance to the explicit statements of the Word of God. He resists the truth over and over again. It will not go well for him. Don't believe the lies, read the Scriptures, read the Scriptures, read the Scriptures, and trust the Lord to make them plain to you.

Start with the explicit statements of the Word. These are certainties, unmistakable declarations, which cannot be disputed except by the most blind and perverse deceivers. Once you have searched the Scriptures for all of these, let them be the frame upon which to build your end times model or time line. These confident declarations will anchor your timeline to truth as you begin to add all the implications of less than explicit verses of Scripture. Implications are often no more than assumptions or guesses by which one interjects a preconceived system of understanding into the text. Guard against this with every ounce of you being. Strive to make every simple statement of the Holy Scriptures true in your understanding of eschatological events; make them true in all the doctrines you believe.

The Scriptures are only confusing when one comes to them with a given framework upon which all the Scriptures must fit. When one tries to read a flawed system into the text he or she wrests or tortures the Holy writ from its plain teaching and is by definition a false teacher and deceiver. All those teachers involved in such eisegesis will witness soon enough that they have played the fool in contending for one of Satan's great deceptions. The pre-trib rapture is an escape that will not come. It has helped inoculate the religious lost against true salvation and the real nature of our identification with Christ as we live in this world. It has sold western evangelical Christianity into the damnation of the prosperity gospel by promising glory without suffering and an escape without tribulation. It is indeed a doctrine of devils. It asks you to cut out any opposing text and rely upon the assumed conclusions of "good godly men", all of which are equally in error.

iamlamad, You are a false teacher, wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction and to the harm of any who would follow your pernicious words.

The Two Distinct Periods of Tribulation in The Last Half of the Seventieth Week

Many fail to see that there are two distinct periods of tribulation in the second half of the seventieth week. The first is great tribulation upon the elect and Israel by the Beast and his followers. The second is tribulation from God upon the unbelieving Beast worshipers. The passages below emphasize this fact.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When Jesus returns, the great tribulation, that time of trouble that Daniel spoke of (Dan 12:1) will be cut short (Matt 24:22). It is at that time that He will resurrect the dead in Christ (Dan 12:1-2, Rev 20:4-6, 1Cor 15:23, 51-52) and send the angels to catch up those who are alive and remain together with them, into the clouds (Rev 1:7), to be with Him (1Thes 4:15-17; 2Thes 2:1; Matt 24:31). It is after we are safely at the Father's house (John 14:3), before the throne of God (Rev 7:9-17) that His wrath begins to be poured out (Rev 8, 9, 16-19) suddenly (1Thes 5:2-3) on the very same day (Luke 17:26-30) after an half hour of silence in Heaven and the blast of the first trumpet (Rev 8:1-).

It can be shown that there are two periods of tribulation which make up the second half of the week, the last 3½ years prior to Christ's literal, physical, millennial reign, upon the throne of David in Jerusalem.

The explicit statements of the Scriptures below make it clear that there are two distinct unparalleled periods of tribulation in the second half of the week.

When does the great tribulation begin? In the middle of the week

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What comes after the great tribulation? The cosmic sign spoken of by Joel which is the precursor to Christ's return.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.                          

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Isa 2:12  For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isa 2:17  And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Isa 2:19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isa 2:20  In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

Isa 2:21  To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

“If these passages describe the cosmic sign of Joel 2:31, and they do, then it is an indisputable fact that the day of the Lord cannot begin until the great tribulation is over.” Steve Conley

God's wrath, at the beginning of the day of the Lord, doesn't begin until the elect (all believers in Jesus Christ) are removed from the earth, after the great tribulation.

God’s tribulation upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who will persecute the church and Israel in the great tribulation, is referenced in Rev 3:10. The persecuted saints are said to be kept from the hour of temptation, that is, removed from the sphere of God’s, day of the Lord, wrath.

Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

When considering this verse, it is very important to understand the focus of the trial in context. It is that which will allow you to rightly understand what the notable hour of temptation is. Here, the focus is said to be upon the earth dwellers, “them that dwell upon the earth.” “The earth dwellers” is a technical term throughout the eschatological portions of the New Testament. The term is the combination of two Greek words (ghay and katoikeo). It always refers to those dwelling on the earth that worship the Beast and receive his mark (even in Rev 12:12). 

Jesus says concerning the Day of the LORD:

Luk 21:35  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Note: Paul clearly teaches that the Day of the LORD will not overtake the watching believer as a thief.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 

So “them that dwell on the face of the whole earth” excludes the watching saints.

John records concerning the two witnesses:

Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. ...

Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Note: The earth-dwellers here rejoice at the death of God’s two witnesses, which no believer would do.

Again, John uses this technical term concerning those who are deceived by the false prophet:

Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 

Note: The earth-dwellers here are deceived by the False Prophet into worshiping the Beast and receiving his mark, but Jesus said that it was not possible for the “very elect” to be deceived (Matt. 24:24).

Eleven verses in the book of Revelation contain this technical term for those who worship the beast and receive his mark.

Recognizing that the focus of the temptation is upon the earth dwellers, we know that it refers to God's fierce wrath at the beginning of the day of the Lord and not Satan's wrath (Rev 12:12) upon the elect and Israel in the great tribulation.

What verses show that the great tribulation is the persecution of the elect and Israel?

The persecution of Israel can readily be seen in many passages. The most spoken of today is likely Jer. 30:7 where the term “Jacob’s trouble” appears. Dan 12:1 can also rightly be speaking of the believing remnant of Israel. Jesus’ instruction in the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24, 25) has a decidedly Jewish flavor which must include the Jews. However, we must remember it is only believers who listen to the Master’s voice. Rev 12, decidedly shows us that Satan persecutes both the Israelites and believers in Jesus Christ when he is cast from Heaven to the earth in the middle of the week.

There are many references to Christians being persecuted in the great tribulation. Rev 6:9-11 describes those martyred souls under the alter in Heaven crying out for vengeance, that would have to wait, until the rest of their brethren and fellowservants should be killed as they were. The innumerable multitude in Rev 7:9-17 are said to have come out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. They are saved by the blood of the Lamb just like we are. The saints are said to overcome the wrath of Satan “by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony and loved not their lives unto death” (Rev 12:11). When the dragon cannot get to the woman who is hid and fed in the wilderness, he goes after "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."(Rev 12:17) "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." (Mat 24:9)  The deliverance is to be for those whose names are in the book (Dan 12:1). He will come the second time without sin unto salvation (Heb 9:28). Jesus said that those that endured to the end shall be saved, and the context was the great tribulation. Again and again, we see deliverance or salvation in a physical sense for those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (1Th 4:16-).

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Great God, The King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, our Saviour, Jesus Christ

 

Lest there is any confusion about the diagram, the seventieth week is seven years long and is divided in two by the revelation of the man of sin, which defiles the temple, beginning the great tribulation. The second half is split between the great tribulation and God's day of the Lord wrath.

 

Edited March 1, 2018 by Steve Conley